Curse

Xylia · Jan 22, 2008, 09:35 PM // 21:35

So we all know that the word of the year for hero builds is synergy. Making your skill bar and your hero's skill bars work together is important. The most common example of this is Sab's 3 Necro Build, which is useful in many areas.

One thing that I think Sab's build lacks is attention to the player's skill bar. Maybe this is more apparent to me, as I play a Necromancer most of the time. Additionally, it loses power in areas with heavy holy damage, lots of AoE damage, or no corpses - the minion master can't keep up enough minions to power the batteries, so to speak. It also loses power when faced with heavy spell prevention, such as [wiki]Vow of Silence[/wiki], [wiki]Spell Breaker[/wiki], or [wiki]Obsidian Flesh[/wiki]. I've been working on my own synergized skill bars - it started off as one additional bar to shore up the weaknesses, and turned into a whole team build that is viable on its own. I have been testing mostly in [wiki]Varajar Fells[/wiki] in Hard Mode, which has (among other things) Vaettir (direct damage/life steal including smiting damage; no corpses), Ice Imps (AoE elemental damage), Elementals (AoE elemental damage; no corpses) and Gryphons (AoE smiting damage, Spell Breaker).

The basis of my build is two Paragon skill bars, one leadership/command and one motivation/tactics. Currently, this is augmented with a curses skill bar (similar to Sab's curses necro) for extra damage and a hammer warrior to take full advantage of the Paragon boosts. In areas with corpses, you could replace either of the supplemental builds with the MM from Sab's build. With some changes I believe you could also replace either supplemental build with a critical barrage assassin, any of several ranger builds, a fire magic elementalist, a spear paragon, a splinter weapon ritualist, or several other builds. This allows for a 4-bar synergy between a player and 3 heroes for many professions. I'm going to post my current builds here, along with my analysis and suggestions for each if that is your player's primary profession. Please post input on all of the current bars, as well as suggestions for supplemental bars for other professions. On all builds, I have used the runes I am most comfortable with, but feel free to use larger or smaller runes as you feel appropriate. These bars seem to be working well at this point, but I think they could definitely be improved. Any suggestions are welcome.

Paragon 1 - P/W Motivation/Tactics:
This build is based off of the PvX wiki P/W Party Support build, but has been modified to synergize better with the team builds.
Motivation: 12+1+2
Leadership: 8 (+1 if desired, has no effect on break points)
Spear Mastery: 8+1
Tactics: 7
[skill]Signet of Synergy[/skill][skill]Song of Restoration[/skill][skill]Ballad of Restoration[/skill][skill]Zealous Anthem[/skill][skill]"Shields Up!"[/skill][skill]"Watch Yourself!"[/skill][skill]Signet of Return[/skill]
Notes: You can use any spear skill you desire, as long as you have one to trigger "on attack skill" effects. If you go with more builds that have spells and fewer that have attack skills, switch [wiki]Zealous Anthem[/wiki] for [wiki]Aria of Zeal[/wiki]. You could also switch [wiki]Ballad of Restoration[/wiki] for [wiki]Aria of Restoration[/wiki]. I think this build may need some more adrenal skills to take full advantage of the build synergy.
Player skill bar: Substitute either of the Tactics skills for There's Nothing to Fear!. If desired, drop tactics entirely and replace the other skill with [wiki]Angelic Protection[/wiki], moving points into leadership. You might want to upgrade to a major rune at this point, as well. Bringing one of the Norn shouts might be appropriate, as well.

Paragon 2 - P/Any Command/Leadership
This is loosely based off of the PvX wiki P/any Aiding Fury build. The end result only has 3 skills in common, but I feel I should give credit.
Leadership: 12+1 (breakpoint for Anthem of Fury)
Spear Mastery: 8+1
Command: 10+1+1
[skill]Blazing Spear[/skill][skill]"Go for the Eyes!"[/skill][skill]Anthem of Fury[/skill][skill]Blazing Finale[/skill][skill]"They're On Fire!"[/skill][skill]"Stand Your Ground!"[/skill][skill]Anthem of Envy[/skill][skill]Signet of Return[/skill]
Notes: Again, any attack skill is okay as long as you have one to trigger "on attack skill" effects, although I would steer clear of the ones that have casting times. You could switch Blazing Finale or Anthem of Envy for [wiki]Burning Refrain[/wiki] or [wiki]Anthem of Flame[/wiki].
Player skill bar: Switch [wiki]anthem of envy[/wiki] or [wiki]"Stand Your Ground!"[/wiki] for There's Nothing to Fear!.

Supplemental - N/P Curses Necro
Curses: 12+1+3
Soul Reaping: 9+1
Spear Mastery: 9
[skill]Spiteful Spirit[/skill][skill]Mark of Pain[/skill][skill]Barbs[/skill][skill]Enfeebling Blood[/skill][skill]Reckless Haste[/skill][skill]Merciless Spear[/skill][skill]Signet of Lost Souls[/skill][skill]Signet of Return[/skill]
Notes: Yes, I'm using a spear on my necro - this contributes to barbs/mark of pain and also allows the necro to trigger "on attack skill" effects. Again, you can use any spear skill you want. Surprisingly, I rarely find myself using [wiki]Spiteful Spirit[/wiki], as it is obvious with this team build that barbs + mark of pain does more damage, both single target and AoE. I have been having some e-management problems - I'm considering switching it out for [wiki]Reaper's Mark[/wiki]. I tried running an orders build ([wiki]Order of the Vampire[/wiki] and [wiki]Dark Fury[/wiki]), but it clashed with [wiki]Signet of Synergy[/wiki] and seemed more distracting than beneficial.
Player skill bar: I'm currently running this build with [wiki]Pain Inverter[/wiki] and [wiki]Ebon Vanguard Assassin Support[/wiki] instead of Enfeebling Blood and Reckless Haste. Instead of the assassin, you could run [wiki]Ebon Battle Standard of Courage[/wiki] or [wiki]Great Dwarf Weapon[/wiki].

Supplemental - W/P or W/Rt Hammer Thumper
Hammer Mastery: 12+1+3
Strength: 12+1
[skill]Counter Blow[/skill][skill]Devastating Hammer[/skill][skill]Crushing Blow[/skill][skill]Fierce Blow[/skill][skill]Enraging Charge[/skill][skill]Flail[/skill][skill]"For Great Justice!"[/skill][skill]Death Pact Signet[/skill]
Notes: You can use any thumper build that you want, just make sure to take advantage of the extra adrenaline you'll be gaining from Anthem of Fury. Since the secondary is used only for the res, you can switch to /Rt or /Mo and include the res of your choice, depending on your personal preference.
Player skill bar:
You could bring [wiki]Whirlwind Attack[/wiki] instead of [wiki]Yeti Smash[/wiki] and "Save Yourselves!" in place of one of the attack skills.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Build History

Original W/P Hammer Thumper
[skill]Staggering Blow[/skill][skill]Yeti Smash[/skill][skill]Counter Blow[/skill][skill]Devastating Hammer[/skill][skill]Crushing Blow[/skill][skill]Fierce Blow[/skill][skill]Irresistible Blow[/skill][skill]Signet of Return[/skill]

~ Dan ~ · Jan 22, 2008, 09:48 PM // 21:48

If you're not melee or ranger yourself, you take physical hench. I don't see how sabway fails against skills like [skill]Vow Of Silence[/skill].

Para builds: Why would you run anything outside of SY/TNTF/Focused anger?

Necro build: Spear? lolwut? If you want maximum efficiency out of barbs and mark of pain, you use physical party members or an MM. Not a spear chukking caster.

Warrior build: Terrabad. And as you're only using the second prof for a res, why not /Rt: [skill]Death Pact Signet[/skill] ?

Xylia · Jan 22, 2008, 10:11 PM // 22:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by dan-the-noob

If you're not melee or ranger yourself, you take physical hench. I don't see how sabway fails against skills like [skill]Vow Of Silence[/skill].

I didn't say that the build failed, I said it lost power. I wasn't trying to degrade the build, only offering my observations.

Your main offense (the curses necro) is completely shut down, especially when there is a whole group of foes who are using one of those skills. In HM many of them are able to keep them up 95% of the time. Physical hench can eventually wear them away, but the foes will attempt to smash your backline before that can happen.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dan-the-noob

Para builds: Why would you run anything outside of SY/TNTF/Focused anger?

Because SY and TNTF are player only skills? The point of these bars was to be able to play any of the builds, not be restricted to having a Paragon primary.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dan-the-noob

Necro build: Spear? lolwut? If you want maximum efficiency out of barbs and mark of pain, you use physical party members or an MM. Not a spear chukking caster.

The spear will trigger the "on next attack skill" effects of [wiki]Zealous Anthem[/wiki] and [wiki]Anthem of Envy[/wiki]. It also makes the AI think you're not a caster, which can be a distinct advantage when you're dealing with caster hate hexes. In HM, the AI will scatter quickly on Mark of Pain, so every extra hit is an extra splash of damage before that happens. I was running this build with 6 physicals (spear necro, 2 paragons, archer hench, warrior hench, thumper hero), and things were basically just exploding.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dan-the-noob

Warrior build: Terrabad. And as you're only using the second prof for a res, why not /Rt: [skill]Death Pact Signet[/skill] ?

I will put [wiki]Death Pact Signet[/wiki] as an option - I think I was trying some paragon skills and then pulled them out and was left with only the res. As for it being "terrabad", I'm more than open to suggestions on how to improve it, but it seems to be working well currently.

Squishy ftw · Jan 22, 2008, 10:23 PM // 22:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xylia

I will put [wiki]Death Pact Signet[/wiki] as an option - I think I was trying some paragon skills and then pulled them out and was left with only the res. As for it being "terrabad", I'm more than open to suggestions on how to improve it, but it seems to be working well currently.

Add flail, enraging charge and FGJ IMO. I would drop staggering, irresistible and yeti or fierce blow.

Xylia · Jan 22, 2008, 10:58 PM // 22:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Squishy ftw

Add flail, enraging charge and FGJ IMO. I would drop staggering, irresistible and yeti or fierce blow.

I updated the build, although I think with Anthem of Fury FGJ might be excessive - I'll test it out as soon as I can.

Shaz · Jan 23, 2008, 02:10 AM // 02:10

I generally don't like to run paragon without Agressive Refrain, it will boost up their damage and adrenaline gain significantly, so I suggest you try to fit that in.

I also don't see the need for "They're On Fire!" and Anthem of Fury. The only thing that causes burning here is Blazing Finale, so ToF wont be worth it to use. Anthem of Fury is meh in PvE generally, and it is not need it in this build. You don't have that many adrenaline skills and the one that you do are really small to need such an elite. So just use AR for adrenaline gain and pick a more useful elite, they don't spam skill on charged anyway, so no need for quick adrenaline gain.

Blazing Finale is meh for damage, you'd be better off with another spear attack. I usually like to run at least 2 spear attacks on my paragons. Zealous Anthem is not needed also, I don't see how they would have energy problem with those build.

I would also change the Signet of Return from the Necro for just a regular res sig. Signet of Return, while being a reuseable res, at 0 Leadership it's just not worth it to use except out of battle. But then you already got 2 of those and a DP sig.

For PvE I would run Earth Shaker instead. And even if you prefer to run Dev Hammer I would switch out Fierce Blow for Mighty Blow. One more Adrenaline wont make a different and it does full damage always, not conditionally like Fierce Blow. Your Elite skill required 7(Dev Hammer) or 8 (Earth Shaker) anyway.

Build seem ok, but I think you might have problem in harder area, especially place with good healing monk. I don't think it has enough damage, your main damage seem to only come from triggering Barbs.

Antithesis · Jan 23, 2008, 08:51 AM // 08:51

I run a Dragon Slash God Mode warrior, it's a much more versatile build than the thumper. For my heroes i'll often use Sabway (no-brainer) but i also really like Racthoh's Pve Paragon Team. I use the D/N Arcane Orders for great physical support plus party-wide healing via [skill=text]Mystic Healing[/skill].

Racthoh's build is a pretty flexible framework - If additional spike healing is required, replace Chorus of Restoration with [skill=text]Finale of Restoration[/skill] on the Song of Purification paragon. [skill=text]Hexbreaker Aria[/skill] can also be used for additional squishy support in hex-heavy areas. The Paragons work better when teamed with a Paragon player - they can can get into energy problems when teamed with a Warrior toon as it's harder to keep up [skill=text]Aggressive Refrain[/skill].
[skill=text]Blazing Spear[/skill] or [skill=text]Anthem of Flame[/skill] can be used to power the Paragons via [skill=text]Glowing Signet[/skill], and [skill=text]"They're on Fire!"[/skill] is useful both as damage mitigation and to keep AG up between mobs. Granted, burning won't work vs Destroyers, but it should be fine for the other 99% of the game.

Wakka · Jan 23, 2008, 10:18 AM // 10:18

Can't remember the last time I seen a post in this section without the words "Sab's Necro Build" lol

System_Crush · Jan 23, 2008, 12:44 PM // 12:44

Quote:

Notes: Again, any attack skill is okay as long as you have one to trigger "on attack skill" effects, although I would steer clear of the ones that have casting times.

Is the spear attack to rule them all for that purpose.
Low cost, additional damage and blindness cure.

========================================

Also I ain't sure weather this provides the same benefits as the damage and distraction offered by sabs minion bomber, or the destructive healing of the restoration necro.

If the necro wasn't optional, but required then it wouldn't be bad

I suggest handing the command paragon [skill=text]Barrage[/skill] a bow and replacing [skill=text]Blazing Finale[/skill] with [skill=text]Burning Refrain[/skill], the multi target will cause quicker adrenaline gain than fury, that adrenaline can in turn be used for eyes and envy to gain energy to spam [skill=text]Barrage[/skill] more.
(yes I know, all the anthems only affect 1 hit of the barrage, but the effect is still better than fury)

Also, paragons aren't bad at inflicting daze, I wonder if there might be a way to make use of that.

=========================================

I'm (currently slacking from) working on a build using 2 earth ele's to use 4 different wards as well as interrupts for defense instead of minions.

I think a true PvE autopilot isn't autopilot unless it works if the player has an empty skill bar and no weapon equipped, as well as all hero windows closed so they can't micro skill use.
Sab's offers that, which is why it is regarded as holy.

This eliminated me from using a nature ritual supported SF ele, as heroes will drop nature rituals anywhere, completely ignoring the huge recharge times those have.

Cathode_Reborn · Jan 24, 2008, 09:06 AM // 09:06

Used this to get through Slaver's NM (all except Duncan):

My bar:
[skill]Focused Anger[/skill][skill]Aggressive Refrain[/skill][skill]Blazing Spear[/skill][skill]Spear of Lightning[/skill]
"There's Nothing to Fear!", "Save yourselves!", Spear of Fury

Last skill is optional, but used Holy Spear for Slaver's. I'd rather use the Ebon honor ward in place of Spear of fury since I'm running 2 other para heroes, but rank is kinda crappy so it's Fury for now...

[skill]Cruel Spear[/skill][skill]Aggressive Refrain[/skill][skill]Blazing Spear[/skill][skill]Spear of Lightning[/skill][skill]"Go for the Eyes!"[/skill][skill]Godspeed[/skill][skill]Anthem of Envy[/skill][skill]Remove Hex[/skill]

I normally don't use Remove hex, but the hexes in Slaver's were nasty

[skill]Cruel Spear[/skill][skill]Aggressive Refrain[/skill]][skill]Blazing Spear[/skill][skill]Spear of Lightning[/skill][skill]Energizing Chorus[/skill][skill]Chorus of Restoration[/skill][skill]Aria of Restoration[/skill][skill]Finale of Restoration[/skill]

Another Cruel spear para....I probably should've just used Expel and take out Remove hex from the other para but meh....more long-rage-eviscrate seemed kinda nice. For anywhere else in NM, I think dual Cruel spear is fine though.

[skill]Signet of Removal[/skill][skill]Remove Hex[/skill][skill]Protective Spirit[/skill][skill]Draw Conditions[/skill][skill]Blood Renewal[/skill][skill]Order of Pain[/skill][skill]Dark Fury[/skill]
Masochism

I usually use Aegis instead of Remove hex (again, just used it for Slaver's) and some other skill besides Draw. I probably should be using something else besides Spear of lightning on the para's since they don't trigger on orders, but there's not much else to use for damage. Swift javelin is nice but not really likin the recharge.

Still messin around with the whole build....just made my para recently. I usually use the 2 hench wars. Had both monk henches.

Racthoh · Jan 24, 2008, 10:34 PM // 22:34

In hex heavy areas I've become a fan of running both my paragon heroes with Empathic Removal and a Hexbreaker Aria on one of them.

tmr819 · Jan 26, 2008, 05:48 PM // 17:48

Thanks for posting these builds, Xylia. I almost never use my paragon heroes and don't recall ever using two at the same time. I look forward to trying these builds out. The only Heroes I use less often than the paragons are Zenmai and Anton.

As for me, I generally like to have one solid interrupter Hero (your warrior supplemental build would probably do for that role).

The hench interrupters (Zho, for example, in EotN) never seem to be enough, but Hero AI with the right interrupting build can basically neutralize a caster while you are focusing on other casters with the rest of your group. Are paragons any good at interrupts? I must confess I don't use them much, so I really don't know.

)

Antithesis · Jan 27, 2008, 12:26 AM // 00:26

In my experience no, Paragons aren't great at interrupting compared to Rangers or Mesmer primary / secondaries. They can take [skill=text]Disrupting Throw[/skill], but that slot is better filled with a damage attack or stance removal. They also have Spear Swipe to inflict Daze from melee range, but they don't use it appropriately. [skill=text]Stunning Strike[/skill] requires a lot of adrenaline and i have never seen it used correctly by a hero. It's also a waste when there are better Para elites to run for party support. Maybe try [skill=text]Power Return[/skill] for a spammable interrupt and see how it goes.

I personally can't justify dropping any of the Para skills for an interrupt when you can along fine without them. I'd prefer they get off that big hit so i can touch them up with Mindbender

Coloneh · Jan 27, 2008, 07:35 AM // 07:35

i have ne experience with paragons myself so i never use my paragon heroes. i know they have potential, i just dont have builds for them. but I do know my necros. and that bar is pretty random.

It looks like you just took sab's necro bar and tried to make it fit with your build without really knowing the skills. SS and SOLS are the only things on that bar that really make any sense. the others are to support the minions, or just to expensive without a jagged battery.

Im not sure you even need a curses necro. I would have gone with a Mind blast rodgot spammer. It dosnt do a ton of damage in HM, but it applies burning to synergize with those paras and it can crank out wards or protection or other useful things.

Xylia · Jan 28, 2008, 06:01 PM // 18:01

Thank you all for your comments. I have started testing several of the suggestions posted here, but I haven't had the time to do enough testing to draw a conclusion on which changes to post.

I'm seriously considering losing the thumper (he still seems to be the weak link, even with the new build) and bringing in a Rodgort's ele to trigger "They're on Fire". If I can get the Paragons to do enough healing/damage prevention to only have to take one monk henchman, then I could bring another physical hench that would serve basically the same purpose as the warrior hero does.

I also figured out that the reason I have been having energy issues is that Mist Vaettir use energy denial skills, so if you spawn 2+ of them, you can expect that regardless. I'm probably going to lose the spear from the necro in favor of some more useful secondary skills, and drop zealous anthem.

I'm also looking at replacing anthem of fury with one of the elite spear attacks, something that will inflict deep wound or daze, as suggested above.