Curse

LightningHell · Dec 15, 2007, 05:26 AM // 05:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by kullwarrior

PLEASE THIS IS TALKING ABOUT HOW CRAP/GOOD ELITE IN PARA ARE NOT
PARA IS GOOD / BAD IN RA/TA/HA/GVG/PVE/ELITE MISH

It is impossible to talk about "elites" without talking about other skills and synergies with other skills, as well as in different situations.

Terraban · Dec 15, 2007, 08:11 AM // 08:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian the Gladiator

I am so disgusted with the people posting in this thread it's not even funny anymore.

This made me chuckle...

Also, the way that you started your insults was with saying how "Incoming!" is a good skill, but people think it isn't because they are "scrubs".

Now...."Incoming!" is on your list of underpowered skills that need buffed.

Barrel of laughs you are.

LightningHell · Dec 15, 2007, 08:16 AM // 08:16

Keep in mind that "Incoming!" used to be imba.

Terraban · Dec 15, 2007, 08:26 AM // 08:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by LightningHell

Keep in mind that "Incoming!" used to be imba.

Yeah, but they took the route of nerfing it into the ground instead of the route of changing the functionality.

wazz · Dec 15, 2007, 12:46 PM // 12:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by lishi

you mean like

Warrior, Ranger,Elementalist,Necro,Assasin,Ritualist?

Followed by dervish who have only a elite skill followed by a 60 second cooldown ...

Basicly only monk and mesmer can remove hex

Correct but as far as I know only the paragon profession can be fully disabled (well all his shouts wich are I suppose the main reason we could be a pain in gvg/ha) with the use of but one hex.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian the Gladiator

The Paragon elites that I think should be buffed are:
Anthem of Guidance --> should work for next 2 attack skills
"Incoming" --> reduce the recharge to 12 seconds
Angelic Bond --> reduce damage the caster takes (like a normal bond: it is an elite ya know...)
"It's Just a Flesh Wound" --> should offer healing to the ally after conditions are removed.
"The Power is Yours" --> increase recharge to 25. Convert energy degen into health degen.

anthem of guidance:well I think 1 is just fine
incoming: if they do what you propose... than it will be abused as before
angelic bond: ever did the deep in the 'old days' as a angelic bonder paragon ? This skill rocked because it couldn't be removed by the hostiles (unlike the monk variant).
it is just a flesh wound: although I have never used it I think it could be useful if you would try to use a tank in a condition heavy area or if the opposing party in gvg would overcondition your monk (daze first than followed with a bunch of others).
the power is yours: this is ,according to me, supposed to be the paragon variant of br... And I think anet tried to give a decent variant of br without that the person casting it would lose health. Strange it isn't used in gvg
as I personally see it as a great way to give energy towards your entire party without sacrificing your own health.

Tyla · Dec 15, 2007, 03:26 PM // 15:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by wazz

anthem of guidance:well I think 1 is just fine

agreed, i see this alot in some HA spike builds

lishi · Dec 15, 2007, 11:15 PM // 23:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by wazz

Correct but as far as I know only the paragon profession can be fully disabled (well all his shouts wich are I suppose the main reason we could be a pain in gvg/ha) with the use of but one hex.

Nope, you still have the spear and relative skill. without the shut they still do the damage.

And a warrior, dervish, assasin (in a minor way) can be fully disabled with any snare.

You dont need me to know that there is far more way to snare then skills called "Vocal minority"

For the incoming you are right, i think is the skill design who is just wrong.

No matter how you put it. -50% damage sound just wrong.

if you can keep it up for what is needed its overpowered, if you cant is useless.

Racthoh · Dec 16, 2007, 01:04 AM // 01:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian the Gladiator

Anthem of Guidance --> should work for next 2 attack skills

On the fence with this one. I personally don't like the skill but I know others do. May have to adjust the adrenaline a little for two attacks.

Quote:

"Incoming" --> reduce the recharge to 12 seconds

Think that would actually make it better than it was at release. Two paragons at 12 command means you have Incoming! up for 6 seconds and down for 6 whereas before it up for 10 then down for 10 at 12 spec. At the very least it becomes too good again. I'd much rather Incoming stays in its Ether Renewal-ed form.

Quote:

Angelic Bond --> reduce damage the caster takes (like a normal bond: it is an elite ya know...)

You'll recreate mass teams of paragons if Angelic Bond is buffed in that manner, especially if Incoming also received the buff you propose.

Quote:

"It's Just a Flesh Wound" --> should offer healing to the ally after conditions are removed.

Instant cast RC?

IJAFW is fine, the problem is RC is just better.

EDIT:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian the Gladiator

Really??? Who are you watching. The most common Para bar is this:
[skill]Cruel Spear[/skill][skill]spear of lightning[/skill][skill]power spike[/skill][skill]anthem of flame[/skill][skill]"go for the eyes!"[/skill][skill]aggressive refrain[/skill][skill]mirror of disenchantment[/skill][skill]resurrection signet[/skill]
It CAN be run with watch yourself and shields up instead of the mesmer skills (get rid of go for the eyes for another attack skill), but that is only when there is a ranger and a mesmer with a ward of melee pretty much...

From a quick glance at the monthlies, every paragon was P/W with a roughly even split between Cruel Spear + WY/SU and Song/Ballad of Restoration. Not a single one used power return/spike with mirror. A song/ballad appeared in the finals.

Brian the Gladiator · Dec 17, 2007, 11:09 PM // 23:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Racthoh

From a quick glance at the monthlies, every paragon was P/W with a roughly even split between Cruel Spear + WY/SU and Song/Ballad of Restoration. Not a single one used power return/spike with mirror. A song/ballad appeared in the finals.

So did a Glimmer of Light monk with vigorous spirit. Just because 1 guild uses it doesn't mean it is common. Teams tend to use absurd builds in the monthly to stay unpredictable.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terraban

Also, the way that you started your insults was with saying how "Incoming!" is a good skill, but people think it isn't because they are "scrubs".
Now...."Incoming!" is on your list of underpowered skills that need buffed.

You aren't reading my posts and what it is that I am truly saying and I am not going to repeat myself. I am done with you.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terraban

Barrel of laughs you are.

Yoda, you are.
GG

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla Salanari

agreed, i see this a lot in some HA spike builds

Although the skill may be used in spikes, that is all it is used for. I would like to see this skill be used in more than just one simple type of build. Also, the skill would not be overpowered because, I forgot to state that the number of attack skills it worked for were aligned with the command attribute, which would nerf it in many builds as well. As of now, the number of attributes stored into command makes no difference on how the skill works, just like mirror of disenchantment is to domination, if I'm not mistaken.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Racthoh

Think that would actually make it better than it was at release. Two paragons at 12 command means you have Incoming! up for 6 seconds and down for 6 whereas before it up for 10 then down for 10 at 12 spec. At the very least it becomes too good again. I'd much rather Incoming stays in its Ether Renewal-ed form.

Correct me if I am wrong. You just said, if my change to "Incoming!" were to be implamented, that two paragons with "Incoming!" and one paragon with "Incoming!", before the nerf, were the same thing thus, my change is bad... I'm pretty sure that forcing people to bring two paragons instead of one is a good change. Also, forcing people to spam stuff more frequently, and depleating energy, is also a good change.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Racthoh

You'll recreate mass teams of paragons if Angelic Bond is buffed in that manner, especially if Incoming also received the buff you propose.

eh, your probably right. I retract the angelic bond statement. It can't be removed which makes it good on its own.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Racthoh

Instant cast RC? IJAFW is fine, the problem is RC is just better.

It causes Deap Wound to the caster... that makes it worse than RC but nice because it is an instant cast. The only thing I overlooked was the recharge. Implament my changes but increase the recharge to 5 seconds and GG.

Terraban · Dec 18, 2007, 12:24 AM // 00:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian the Gladiator

You aren't reading my posts and what it is that I am truly saying and I am not going to repeat myself. I am done with you.

No need to repeat yourself...I will....

Quote:

EDIT: People are saying that "Incoming" is a bad skill. You couldn't be more wrong! You obviously don't know how to use it, for the same scrubby reasons above. Incoming is a great spike deterrent.

Quote:

The Paragon elites that I think should be buffed are:
Anthem of Guidance --> should work for next 2 attack skills
"Incoming" --> reduce the recharge to 12 seconds
Angelic Bond --> reduce damage the caster takes (like a normal bond: it is an elite ya know...)
"It's Just a Flesh Wound" --> should offer healing to the ally after conditions are removed.
"The Power is Yours" --> increase recharge to 25. Convert energy degen into health degen.

blue.rellik · Dec 18, 2007, 02:22 AM // 02:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian the Gladiator

It causes Deap Wound to the caster... that makes it worse than RC but nice because it is an instant cast. The only thing I overlooked was the recharge. Implament my changes but increase the recharge to 5 seconds and GG.

Deep wound won't matter if you're not getting spiked

Brian the Gladiator · Dec 19, 2007, 10:47 PM // 22:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terraban

No need to repeat yourself...I will....

Wow. i guess I am going to have to repeat myself because you are too illiterate to read an entire post...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian The Gladiator

Note: Although these skills are underpowered, that doesn't mean they are useless or should be disregarded. All it means is that, without buffs, they will remain incredibly situational and thus, unused in most team builds.

I stand by my original statement... Incoming is a good skill for use against certain spikes. If it were buffed, it could be used in more than just a few specific examples. As of right now, "Incoming!" is good at one thing, stopping very specific spike groups. Just because I think a skill should be buffed doesn't mean that I think it a worthless skill. It CAN be somewhere between the two.

Terraban is being terribaed. Stop.

Quote:

Originally Posted by blue.rellik

Deep wound won't matter if you're not getting spiked

Deep wound will definitely matter at VoD. Also, this skill will be used on paragons so... It will be worse than RC by association. It's not like teams will end up replacing a monk for a paragon because paragons have a better Elite condition removal or something, because paragons can't do all of the other things a primary monk can do. The only change this skill would have on the meta would be that some teams might choose to use a paragon with this skill and switch out the RC for an SoD monk.

Terraban · Dec 20, 2007, 01:58 AM // 01:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian the Gladiator

Wow. i guess I am going to have to repeat myself because you are too illiterate to read an entire post...

Quote:

Note: Although these skills are underpowered, that doesn't mean they are useless or should be disregarded. All it means is that, without buffs, they will remain incredibly situational and thus, unused in most team builds.

I stand by my original statement... Incoming is a good skill for use against certain spikes. If it were buffed, it could be used in more than just a few specific examples. As of right now, "Incoming!" is good at one thing, stopping very specific spike groups. Just because I think a skill should be buffed doesn't mean that I think it a worthless skill. It CAN be somewhere between the two.

Terraban is being terribaed. Stop.

So....underpowered =/= bad?

I was always under the impression that skills were "baed" because they were underpowered. Guess I was wrong.

I can't understand how good skills can be underpowered. Just seems really contradictory to me.

[skill=text]Amity[/skill] is good at stopping 5 Warrior spikes, does that make it a good skill since it is good at stopping a specific spike?

wazz · Dec 20, 2007, 11:00 AM // 11:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terraban

So....underpowered =/= bad?

I was always under the impression that skills were "baed" because they were underpowered. Guess I was wrong.

I can't understand how good skills can be underpowered. Just seems really contradictory to me.

[skill=text]Amity[/skill] is good at stopping 5 Warrior spikes, does that make it a good skill since it is good at stopping a specific spike?

how a good skill can be bad:

tof with a group that causes burning = good
tof without a group that causes burning = bad

It depends on situations/conditions if a skill is good or bad.

I suppose brian is saying: incoming is to situation/condition bound to be good BUT it still can be a ownage skill if the condition an situation is right.

But I stay with my opinion: remove incoming and give us an other elite
or buff an other already existing skill to elite status and downgrade incoming as there is no way you can turn incoming in a good skill.

Terraban · Dec 20, 2007, 05:53 PM // 17:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by wazz

how a good skill can be bad:

tof with a group that causes burning = good
tof without a group that causes burning = bad

It depends on situations/conditions if a skill is good or bad.

I suppose brian is saying: incoming is to situation/condition bound to be good BUT it still can be a ownage skill if the condition an situation is right.

But I stay with my opinion: remove incoming and give us an other elite
or buff an other already existing skill to elite status and downgrade incoming as there is no way you can turn incoming in a good skill.

Well obviously a skill can be used wrong. Morons using a skill is not what we are talking about, at least I do not think so. If we use that logic, every skill in the game is underpowered and needs a buff because a Warrior using it at 0 spec is a bad usage of it.

A skill isn't "good" because it has A situation where it is good.
A skill isn't "bad" because it has A situation where it is bad.

Very few, if any skill in the game has 100% success rate. Every skill has a "bad" situation. Every skill can be used wrong. The problem with "Incoming!" is that it is bad in about 85% of the situations, and the other 15% it still isn't that great of skill.

The ToF comparison mixes up skill efficiency with user error. A player bringing ToF when there is no burning means the player is bad, it has nothing to do with the skill. Just like a Warrior bringing TNtF....it won't be that effective, but that doesn't make TNtF a bad skill.

Magikarp · Dec 20, 2007, 07:06 PM // 19:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terraban

Well obviously a skill can be used wrong. Morons using a skill is not what we are talking about, at least I do not think so. If we use that logic, every skill in the game is underpowered and needs a buff because a Warrior using it at 0 spec is a bad usage of it.

A skill isn't "good" because it has A situation where it is good.
A skill isn't "bad" because it has A situation where it is bad.

Very few, if any skill in the game has 100% success rate. Every skill has a "bad" situation. Every skill can be used wrong. The problem with "Incoming!" is that it is bad in about 85% of the situations, and the other 15% it still isn't that great of skill.

The ToF comparison mixes up skill efficiency with user error. A player bringing ToF when there is no burning means the player is bad, it has nothing to do with the skill. Just like a Warrior bringing TNtF....it won't be that effective, but that doesn't make TNtF a bad skill.

you answered your own questions there. HA/GvG monks play nothing like PvE monks, and so on and so on. almost any skill in the game can find a place in the game, even junk like Cant Touch Me, or Primal Rage. its called efficiency, and not every skill is optimal in choice FOR efficiency. simple as that.

sorry to Brian, Incoming just isnt very efficient, so lets just all move on.

Div · Dec 20, 2007, 07:10 PM // 19:10

It's not quantity it's quality. If every single warrior elite sucked but eviscerate deals +200 damage, I'll deal with it.

Terraban · Dec 20, 2007, 07:17 PM // 19:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magikarp

you answered your own questions there. HA/GvG monks play nothing like PvE monks, and so on and so on. almost any skill in the game can find a place in the game, even junk like Cant Touch Me, or Primal Rage. its called efficiency, and not every skill is optimal in choice FOR efficiency. simple as that.

sorry to Brian, Incoming just isnt very efficient, so lets just all move on.

Yeah, but a skill that is ineffective in 90% of situations is bad for example Incoming.

The part of my quote that you highlighted was mean for my quoted post. A bad situation doesn't make a good skill bad. Good and bad are based on overall efficiency.

If a skill has a high efficiency in most situations, then it is "good".
If a skill has low efficiency in most situations, then it is "bad".

One moron using a skill poorly does not adjust a skill from good to bad, it just shows that the person is a moron.

I'm tired of typing...have fun.

wazz · Dec 20, 2007, 08:16 PM // 20:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terraban

Yeah, but a skill that is ineffective in 90% of situations is bad for example Incoming.

The part of my quote that you highlighted was mean for my quoted post. A bad situation doesn't make a good skill bad. Good and bad are based on overall efficiency.

If a skill has a high efficiency in most situations, then it is "good".
If a skill has low efficiency in most situations, then it is "bad".

One moron using a skill poorly does not adjust a skill from good to bad, it just shows that the person is a moron.

I'm tired of typing...have fun.

Well alot of skills that are used are worthless in 90% of the situations... but still aren't bad.

Yes I know it is stopid to use tof without a way to inflict mass-burning on enemys
but still... mabye I made a bad example but you didn't seem to have read my entire post...

I was trying to say with my example (and the rest of the post)
that a skill isn't bad/good depending on it is being over- or underpowered but depending on the situation it is being used...

So incoming is underpowered but it still can be a good skill to counter that spike.
and [insert overpowered skill here] is an overpowered skill but is a worthless skill in situation X.

IMO under/overpowered is the "absolute" value of a skill.
and good/bad the "relative" value of a skill.

I think brian mine or less ment what I just typed...

Brian the Gladiator · Dec 21, 2007, 03:25 PM // 15:25

That is pretty much correct. The really nice thing about "Incoming!" is that it is pretty easy to use. If you are in an AT or something, and you definitely know you are going up against a spike... (I have seen the Shove Warrior + Monk smite spike in gvg quite a few times), then I would really consider bringing a couple paragons with "Incoming!" because of two major reasons:
1. It will pretty much kill the enemy teams spike and allow us to fight in a 4-4 split with 1 paragon on each team. We will be able to keep moral and kill off NPCs and possibly the Lord.

2. It is very easy to use and essentially foolproof. All the paragon has to do is watch the shove warrior, wait until he uses Shove, then put up "Incoming!" as soon as he sees the skill casted. Bye Bye Spike!

So, as the skill is now, "Incoming!" has a use and can be used effectively. This must mean the skill is fine as is right??? Not in my opinion. The problem is that it only has 1 use for 1 specific situation. If the skill were buffed up as little, the skill may be used in normal GvG balance play with only 1 paragon necessary. It would help eliminate a lot of the pressure spikes you see and alleviated the monks a little. As of now, the only thing that really puts a damper on this skill is the recharge.

If you feel that my suggestion is a bit too over the top, then how about this:

--> Reduce the recharge to 12 seconds. Increase energy cost to 15. Make a attribute/duration change to... 16 command makes a 3 second duration, 9 command makes a 2 second duration, 3 command makes a 1 second duration, anything lower is a 0 second duration.