Curse

kullwarrior · Dec 09, 2007, 07:33 PM // 19:33

Is it just me or Paragons have pretty crappy elites?
Crappiest
"Incoming!"
"The Power Is Yours!"
"It's just a flesh wound."
Cautery Signet
Angelic Bond
Stunning Strike
Anthem of Fury
Cruel Spear
Crippling Anthem
Soldier's Fury
Anthem of Guidance
Song of Purification
Focused Anger
Song of Restoration
Defensive Anthem
Survivable..

Seriously but Paragon's Elite need like major buff.
Incoming is beyond crap, The Power is Yours was crap since it's creation. Never see the light. Flesh Wound is almost the same, Cautery Signet might be useful if its shorter cast/recharge. Otherwise all you see paragon used in:
PVE:
Soldier's Fury
Focused Anger

PVP
Anthem of Guidance
Defensive Anthem

Both
Song of Purification
Song of Restoration

Splitisoda · Dec 09, 2007, 07:40 PM // 19:40

You do have a point, although some of the elites are just worth it for the damage like wearying spear ithink, i use that with my 7 adren skills combo + for great justice.

The Meth · Dec 09, 2007, 08:07 PM // 20:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by kullwarrior

Is it just me or Paragons have pretty crappy elites?
Otherwise all you see paragon used in:
PVE:
Soldier's Fury
Focused Anger
PVP
Anthem of Guidance
Defensive Anthem
Both
Song of Purification
Song of Restoration

I would add Cruel spear and Angelic bond to those lists, making it 8 out of 15 decent elites, which is a pretty good ratio compared to the other professions

Diddy bow · Dec 09, 2007, 09:03 PM // 21:03

Nice defensive anthem is in crappiest and pvp :P

Some of the elites the have are quite good when you think about it though, just never seen major use.

Racthoh · Dec 09, 2007, 11:55 PM // 23:55

Warriors have Dragon Slash, Eviscerate, Backbreaker, Earthshaker, Devestating Hammer.
Monks have... Word of Healing, Restore Condition, to a lesser extent Healer's Boon and Shield of Deflection.
Elementalist have Mind Blast, Blinding Surge, Savannah Heat, maybe Icy Shackles.
Necromancers have Spiteful Spirit and Corrupt Enchantment. I think minion masters use Order of Undeath.
Mesmers have Expel Hexes (though generally seen on a /me), Hex Eater Vortex, Energy Surge, and the odd Signet of Illusions guy.
Ritualist have Offering of Spirit and Weapon of Remedy.
Assassins have Moebius Strike.
Dervish have Avatar of Melandru, Arcane Zeal, Lyssa is okay, I think Ebon Dust Aura has some builds as well.
And finally Rangers have Barrage, Broad Head Arrow, Burning Arrow, Lacerate in some condition builds, and Crippling Shot.

I didn't list some because they generally appear in degenerate builds so they really aren't worth listing. Whereas the paragon... it would be easier to list the elites that don't see play. I'm not sure why some of those elites were listed as not seeing play, especially Cruel Spear. Ranged Eviscerates are bad? I'm not sure what the point of this thread is unless there is some sarcasm in the title.

wetsparks · Dec 10, 2007, 01:35 AM // 01:35

you forgot [skill]spoil victor[/skill] for necros.

blue.rellik · Dec 10, 2007, 03:45 AM // 03:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Racthoh

Warriors have Dragon Slash, Eviscerate, Backbreaker, Earthshaker, Devestating Hammer.

For shame Racthoh! You forgot about Crippling Slash, and you're a sword user (if you ever play your warrior that is)

Quote:

Monks have... Word of Healing, Restore Condition, to a lesser extent Healer's Boon and Shield of Deflection.

I think Shield of Regen and Deflection are still good

Quote:

Elementalist have Mind Blast, Blinding Surge, Savannah Heat, maybe Icy Shackles.

Standstorm and in PvP or large numbers, Searing Flames are still playable. Elemental Attunement is still nice for non NF users.

Quote:

Necromancers have Spiteful Spirit and Corrupt Enchantment. I think minion masters use Order of Undeath.

Jagged Bones and Aura of the Lich are still good.

arsie · Dec 10, 2007, 04:23 AM // 04:23

The issue is that the Fire Elemental line has more good elites than Assassins and Ritualists.

Racthoh · Dec 10, 2007, 06:40 AM // 06:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by wetsparks

you forgot [skill]spoil victor[/skill] for necros.

I'd have to include Spellbreaker, Obsidian Flesh, etc.. if I were to include Spoil Victor. I can't think of a necro bar outside of a solo build or Shiro in Cantha that would use Spoil Victor over an SS guy.

Quote:

Originally Posted by blue.rellik

For shame Racthoh! You forgot about Crippling Slash, and you're a sword user (if you ever play your warrior that is)

Oops, forgot about Crippling Slash. My bad, I do play paragon too much; not my fault they're the best PvE profession.

Quote:

Originally Posted by blue.rellik

I think Shield of Regen and Deflection are still good

The primary use of Regen I saw was on runners, rarely ever in PvE. Given that LoD was removed from all forms of PvP you'll typically see the runner carrying a party heal in the form of Protective was Kaolai or a Heal Party. No place for SoR anymore.

Deflection I agree is still decent enough, I know I've seen a few PvErs at the very least using it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by blue.rellik

Standstorm and in PvP or large numbers, Searing Flames are still playable. Elemental Attunement is still nice for non NF users.

Sandstorm I didn't realize still saw play, as the few HA matches I generally watch are filled with Searing Flames. SF, as I mentioned, I didn't list because in my eyes it is a degenerate build; 5-6 SFers and two monks doesn't look healthy to me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by blue.rellik

Jagged Bones and Aura of the Lich are still good.

I've never had any good experience with AoTL except that since they AI targets low health targets first I now have full aggro on my 60 AL guy. Given that the only bar I ran AoTL on was a hero MM, he was using a superior death rune so when the enchantment was dropped they enemies were still all over my MM.

Jagged Bones for sure, considering the success of Sabway.

Back on topic... it still doesn't change the fact that the paragon has just as many if not more useful elites than the other professions. When you also consider that the paragon (and dervish) have the fewest elites in the game and they still have a greater number of better skills that certainly counts for something.

blue.rellik · Dec 10, 2007, 06:46 AM // 06:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Racthoh

Oops, forgot about Crippling Slash. My bad, I do play paragon too much; not my fault they're the best PvE profession.

Yeah I know

Quote:

Sandstorm I didn't realize still saw play, as the few HA matches I generally watch are filled with Searing Flames. SF, as I mentioned, I didn't list because in my eyes it is a degenerate build; 5-6 SFers and two monks doesn't look healthy to me.

I was talking overall, Sandstorm was good and still decent in PvE (that's why I almost always bring Herta.

Quote:

I've never had any good experience with AoTL except that since they AI targets low health targets first I now have full aggro on my 60 AL guy. Given that the only bar I ran AoTL on was a hero MM, he was using a superior death rune so when the enchantment was dropped they enemies were still all over my MM.

Aura of the Lich + Dark Bond + Infuse Condition + Mystic Regen = laff at mobs

Quote:

Jagged Bones for sure, considering the success of Sabway.

Yeah, PvE players are split up like this.

40 % dumb builds
30 % Ursan
20 % Sabway
10 % original and/or good builds

MercenaryK · Dec 10, 2007, 06:52 AM // 06:52

When I first picked up Cautery Signet I used it with Remedy Signet, obviously. However I took that a step further as I was P/Me and used Mantra of Inscriptions(??), which reduces Signet's recharge time by 40% or so. Thus I went Motivation, Leadership, some Inspiration, and had Spear at 9.

I went and used Signet of Synergy. Pretty much I was a wussy monk (PvE which anything works) but there were hardly conditions around and I backed up the monks to make their life easier.

There's a use for those elites, you just have to get out of the mind set or quit assuming the same role. Switch it up some times. Yeah yeah, if you kill them quicker than they kill you it's all win win...... being all support isn't so bad if you're up for it.

Paragon elites are pretty good, each of them have their use. Song of Restoration ftw same with "It's just a Flesh Wound" : no casting time, 1s recharge, 5e, and you get deep wound, which again, Remedy Signet. Monks would die to do that.

Also, Cautery Signet + Plague Sending = massive fire duration for your foes. Each condition you remove from all party members (Your self included) you are on fire for 1 second. It can add up if everyone in the party is on fire.

wazz · Dec 10, 2007, 12:43 PM // 12:43

The only elite IMO that is really crap is Incoming (they should remove it cause rly no way to save it).

Than personally I find shunning strike to cost to much adraline (can be just me).

All the rest of the elite are ok they just won't see use due to normal pug set up and cause of them to be too much conditional (for instance :as said above: cautery signet, if more hostiles would use conditions it would see way more use).

(for instance all the elite anthems could own in a fully physical team set up but seeing all we really see in pugs is: nukers + monks + tank+ whatevah they still need to fill in a spot (with other words: cannon/mob fodder) ).

Personally I think there are but 10 totally wortless/crappy elite skills in the entire game. Most elites just don't see use due the mentality of pugs or cause none came up with a HA/gvg team use for it(yet).

I wouldn't say we paragons got crappy elites,... just pretty conditional or out-of-the-box ones.

Just my opinion.

Terraban · Dec 10, 2007, 04:20 PM // 16:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by blue.rellik

40 % dumb builds
30 % Ursan
20 % Sabway
10 % original and/or good builds

Gonna have to disagree with this.
80% dumb builds
10% Ursan
5% Sabway
5% Decent builds.

wetsparks · Dec 10, 2007, 11:26 PM // 23:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Racthoh

I'd have to include Spellbreaker, Obsidian Flesh, etc.. if I were to include Spoil Victor. I can't think of a necro bar outside of a solo build or Shiro in Cantha that would use Spoil Victor over an SS guy.

I found SV very useful in places like the realm of torment and the ring of fire. Cantha there aren't very many places with enemies that had significantly more health than you to make it worth while, but almost every boss it can be used against.

blue.rellik · Dec 11, 2007, 02:05 AM // 02:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terraban

Gonna have to disagree with this.
80% dumb builds
10% Ursan
5% Sabway
5% Decent builds.

Oh yeah that sounds right. I haven't pugged in yonks

GourangaPizza · Dec 11, 2007, 01:21 PM // 13:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by wazz

The only elite IMO that is really crap is Incoming (they should remove it cause rly no way to save it).

Incoming used to be part of the gimmick Paragon-way team builds; it used to last around 6-7 seconds. So you have the whole team spamming Incoming in turns to keep it up constantly. Arenanet over-nerfed it just like they did to Avatar of Grenth.

bungusmaximus · Dec 11, 2007, 01:27 PM // 13:27

Soldier's Fury is actually rather good in the builds I often use, especially on heroes. Builds adrenaline like no tomorrow and does lots of damage in the process.

Ninian_Grace · Dec 11, 2007, 04:27 PM // 16:27

you find cruel spear, song of restoration and defensive anthem crappy?

I must dissagree with you on those...

Lets say they are ok skills.

you know what skill should be buffed? Enduring Harmony. instead of target ally...all allies. mmmmmm TNTF and SY. *drools*

wazz · Dec 11, 2007, 05:05 PM // 17:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by GourangaPizza

Incoming used to be part of the gimmick Paragon-way team builds; it used to last around 6-7 seconds. So you have the whole team spamming Incoming in turns to keep it up constantly. Arenanet over-nerfed it just like they did to Avatar of Grenth.

I know...
but it doesn't change the fact that it is the most worthless skill paragons got
+ I don't think there is a way to buff it without (re)causing the reason it was nerfed.

IslandHermet · Dec 11, 2007, 05:26 PM // 17:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terraban

Gonna have to disagree with this.
80% dumb builds
10% Ursan
5% Sabway
5% Decent builds.

these numbers seem more accurate.