Curse

upier · Dec 31, 2007, 09:28 AM // 09:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moloch Vein

I don't really see how you go from the premise that "the game is poorly designed" to "... so it's ok to make it absolutely non-challenging as well." Sounds like a guy looking for an excuse for not playing the challenging content of the game while still attempting to feel very elite about it.

Also I don't understand all the whining about casting times and the likes. Yes, the monsters in Hard Mode have half casting time. They're "monsters." Meaning, "creatures governed by a really weak AI that's pretty easy to beat."

Yes, I'd prefer actual improvements of the enemy AI, combined with real game rules for monsters (no ridiculous energy regeneration etc.) However I do understand it must be much easier to just put all the bad guys on steroids.

I'm not really sure if balance in PvE would even be desirable, but hell, let me take a shot at defining it.

I believe true "balance" in PvE can only be achieved by implementing a computer AI that is the functional equivalent of a human being. Another aspect of "balance" in PvE would be that all classes are equally strong in PvE - that the worst players can only complete the easiest content, and that only the best players can complete the hardest content. (Say 10% best for 10% hardest & vice versa.)

Right now none of these things are true, and one of them is unlikely to ever become true, so yes, I agree, balance does not exist in PvE. People seem to use this fact to obfuscate the discussion, though.

The issues with half-cast times come from playing a mesmer in PvE a lot.
And when A.Net says passive skills are bad - and they buff more active skills (because of PvP of course - which I don't have a problem with)- it might not be the best thing EVER to make the monsters in PvE bypass all the balance rules (I do have a problem with A.Net not thinking what a skill balance does to the persistent world of PvE!).
Because if all skills are activated at twice the speed - then the skills that were made to counter them are insanely underpowered - because the counter skills were balanced also on the skills that they were supposed to counter!
It's the same thing with massive armour buffs and ele damage.
Or making the rule that certain conditions can't be applied to certain foes.
Or making the skills cost 40% as much.
The mesmer is just the class where this shows the most!

Balance in PvE would mean that every party you run into could (and pretty much would) trash your party (or at least a few members). It's insane that you run into a party that is much bigger then yours, with higher levelled foes and you make it out alive without a scratch.
But that would make for a shitty game for most players.
And it also wouldn't allow for mistakes.
And it wouldn't allow for running sup runes.
Or any other sub-par thingy.
And until this stays the way it is - it's completely and utterly worthless to talk about anything being to strong. Because It can't be.
Because PvE is designed for the players to win.
Compared to PvP - where the design is for the best player to win!
If the game is to easy - it just means you are too good for it!

wazz · Dec 31, 2007, 10:44 AM // 10:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by zwei2stein

1.First, what are those people doing vanquishing when they lack key skill unlocks? 2.How come they didnt unlock those key skills during normal gameplay? 3.And if they didnt, how come they dont have resources leftover (unspent hero SPs, some platinum in storage) or close aproximations of those skills unlocked?

4.Between skill quests in prophecies, Factions and NF (yes, even factions/nf gives you about 40 free unlocks), hero skill trainers and plain shelling out 1k and 1sp for skill, they dont have decent bars?5. Not mentioning that they got most of decent skills on their heroes autounlocked already ... 5-10 minutes in zaishen gives you 1k faction.

6.As far as equipment goes, people you are refering to are better of havign their heroes unequiped (superior runes ...). If you insist, perfect equipment for hero is about 5k total, tops. survivor runes, minor runes for attributes you use, vitaes elsewhere, buy 2x5 of collector fodder items amd exchange em

7.Besides, if they are already vanquishing, they can, you know, equip heroes as they progress. keep collectilbe drops and exchange em for better stuff for heroes, vanq gives 1k and 1sp pretty much automatically everywhere, which means at least one unlock per area, which means that you are gonna get unlock you need for next area if its necesary.

1. Because they just beated the game/ wanne have some fun etc.
An other thing: most people don't even know wich skills could come in handy and wich skills don't.

2. How would they know wich skill to unlock in the first place ? Most people just unlock skills from there own primairy proffesion and a couple of there secundairy, they don't even watch the rest of the proffesions there skills.

3. First they spent most of there money on : elite armours, greens, rare weapon skins and etc.
Second most people don't know wich skill they should unlock so they just unlock whatever skill looks nice to them or they think could mabye come in handy.

4. They themselves have most of the time a decent bar but there heros... that is another story. People will rather spend there money on skills (if they spend money on it, most of the time they prefer to spend it on greens etc.)of there own professions than skills of another profession. So they most of the time end up using hero builds as sabs team because they don't have the 'resources' to do it themselves.

5. Most people that pve don't even know what you can do in pvp, most pvers only pvp-experience is ab, they don't even know of the existence of the zaiden chalenge untill you tell them.

6. Alot of people find 20k alot and most people don't even have a clue what collectors do, let stand witch collector gives witch weapon.

7. Yes, but most people even after vanquishing a couple of areas still don't have a clue wich skill they should or shouldn't unlock.

Ok I agree up to some point, they should put more money in unlocking skills and gearing up there heros instead of spending it on goldsinks. But then again they most of the time don't know any better.

Quote:

Originally Posted by zwei2stein

Yes, you cant vanquish that much casually, it sucks, but if you are so casuall that putting together decent teambuild and checking wiki is major pain, you propably have other, more casuall, stuff left to do.

Well for most people trying to come up with a build themselves that counters out enemy attacks and deals damage at the same time isn't that eassy. Let alone synergys with the other builds in the party, having the heros geared up and having the actual skills unlocked.

Also most people only understand 1-3 proffesions of the game (and with understanding I mean know how to play them and knowing how that skills synergy wich each other). Making a build for another proffesions tends to turn out quite bad.

Also although checking wiki can be helpful, the only thing that actually helped me was: the amount of monsters in the area and what map I missed (I dunno how I did it but I missed an entire map in cantha

)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Simath

You should become used to accepting others superiority.

And the superiour should accept that people inferiour to them:
also have the right to play each part of the game,
also have an opinion that should be lissened to
and also can be right.

@yesitsrob

I don't assume that cookiecutterbuilds/ pve skills are the only way to do an area. But the only way to do it with a PuG (or with less experienced guild/allaince group or with friends).

Most people learn2play there proffesion. And that already takes some effort. Learning to understand the entire game is way to time consuming/hard/ boring (name it as you want) for most people to do.
Still they want to do the more elite stuff because it gives titles, nice drops etc. etc.

@terraban

I expected such a response as yours. Infact: I expected a higher amount of those. Seems that I lose faith in mankind to fast.

According to you: trying to explain how 'hard' HM pve is without pve skills for the average person is QQ ?

Avarre · Dec 31, 2007, 02:34 PM // 14:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by wazz

According to you: trying to explain how 'hard' HM pve is without pve skills for the average person is QQ ?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

Hey guys, the game is meant to reward skill.

If you're bad, you shouldn't be able to complete every area of the game.

This is called creating a reason to improve, and justifying skill over time.

Have a nice day.

Mr Pink57 · Jan 02, 2008, 05:32 AM // 05:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by YunSooJin

Paragon? Almost warrior like damage without the spikiness, aoe unstrippable party-wide buffs and is a tank themselves to boot.

Have you seen a crit SoL hit? Last one I landed in PvE hit for 114 damage and that was Gate of Madness.

pink

Zahr Dalsk · Jan 02, 2008, 05:47 AM // 05:47

Here's all I have to say about the Paragon dance...

Mr Pink57 · Jan 02, 2008, 07:12 AM // 07:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

Hey guys, the game is meant to reward skill.

If you're bad, you shouldn't be able to complete every area of the game.

This is called creating a reason to improve, and justifying skill over time.

I've read most of the posts in this thread and I take it GW is more of a job for you then a time to relax, is it not? There are people in this game who play to get away from their kids, spouse, work, and anything else that stresses them out. Therefore they do not want to sit and constantly improve and figure out new builds/ways to get thru a mission/area. All they really wanna do is just play the game for a few ours then go back to their lives thats it nothing more. If the game became to trying or tough GW would have a very low fanbase as a lot of people would still be just out of pre.

As for SY and if it should be nerfed? I dont care if they do or not I'll just play my mesmer more.

pink

RhanoctJocosa · Jan 02, 2008, 07:20 AM // 07:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr Pink57

There are people in this game who play to get away from their kids, spouse, work, and anything else that stresses them out. Therefore they do not want to sit and constantly improve and figure out new builds/ways to get thru a mission/area. All they really wanna do is just play the game for a few ours then go back to their lives thats it nothing more. If the game became to trying or tough GW would have a very low fanbase as a lot of people would still be just out of pre.

There is plenty of easy content for people who only want to play casually. The problem is there isn't enough challenging content to please the higher skilled players. You can't possibly be telling me that you want to be able to roll every aspect of the game and still be terrible.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr Pink57

As for SY and if it should be nerfed? I dont care if they do or not I'll just play my mesmer more.

It should be nerfed, all ANet need to do is look at the 6 Para/orders/monk teams ROLLING high end PvE.

upier · Jan 02, 2008, 07:56 AM // 07:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by RhanoctJocosa

It should be nerfed, all ANet need to do is look at the 6 Para/orders/monk teams ROLLING high end PvE.

Newsflash:
There is no observer mode in PvE.

Mr Pink57 · Jan 02, 2008, 08:10 AM // 08:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by RhanoctJocosa

There is plenty of easy content for people who only want to play casually. The problem is there isn't enough challenging content to please the higher skilled players. You can't possibly be telling me that you want to be able to roll every aspect of the game and still be terrible.

It should be nerfed, all ANet need to do is look at the 6 Para/orders/monk teams ROLLING high end PvE.

1. No I'm not saying you should be able to roll everything but PvE was made for the casual player in mind so they dont go "scrub" PvP. Plus a lot of the casual players are not really found in the elite mission areas anyways so it really wouldnt apply there. But as for going thru a storyline... yes it should not be that much trouble (read: THK).

2. Then I guess we need to nerf the B/P teams to? Also I cannot think of the last time my para was in a high end area and people where setting that up? Have you mixed it up with the Ursanblow teams?

pink

wazz · Jan 02, 2008, 09:58 AM // 09:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by RhanoctJocosa

..., all ANet need to do is look at the 6 Para/orders/monk teams ROLLING high end PvE.

6 para/orders/monk teams ???
Don't even know of the excistence of those

and I spent more then enough time in doa,topk and the deep to atleast know of the excistence of it.

Avarre · Jan 02, 2008, 10:33 AM // 10:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr Pink57

I've read most of the posts in this thread and I take it GW is more of a job for you then a time to relax, is it not? There are people in this game who play to get away from their kids, spouse, work, and anything else that stresses them out. Therefore they do not want to sit and constantly improve and figure out new builds/ways to get thru a mission/area. All they really wanna do is just play the game for a few ours then go back to their lives thats it nothing more. If the game became to trying or tough GW would have a very low fanbase as a lot of people would still be just out of pre.

As for SY and if it should be nerfed? I dont care if they do or not I'll just play my mesmer more.

pink

No, I play at most an hour or two a day.

If the game is meant to reward skill, yet there is no actual reward for skill, then what is the point? As it is, you can complete everything even while being a poor player, especially since you don't even have to design builds.

This game was originally intended to be something that you would succeed at if you were good, not if you just played it until you had everything. There are non-elite areas for players that don't want to devote as much effort into learning. If you expect to have every item and every zone cleared without learning to play well, perhaps Guild Wars isn't the right game.

Unfortunately, the kind of player that seems to believe themselves entitled to that is more prevalent, hence the continual dumbing down of the game and addition of easymode PvE items and skills to make it more attractive. It's become apparent with the huge shift towards PvE development that profit is the driving factor.

I'd like to see a game that caters more fully towards a certain market and sticks to it despite potential profits from the mainstream MMO audience, but bleh.

the_jos · Jan 02, 2008, 08:19 PM // 20:19

Quote:

Unfortunately, the kind of player that seems to believe themselves entitled to that is more prevalent, hence the continual dumbing down of the game and addition of easymode PvE items and skills to make it more attractive. It's become apparent with the huge shift towards PvE development that profit is the driving factor.

While I agree with you on this point there is more to say in my opinion.

The PvE skills are mainly a reaction to sounds from the PvE community about certain aspects of the game.
For example, the various Blessing skills make it possible for all professions to get easy (pug) access to elite areas.
Before that a lot of professions were left out of those.
I don't recall the various generic builds had mesmer, dervish, sin and paragon in them. I also recall all the 'why mesmers are not that good in PvE' threads.
At least it's possible for players of those professions to experience those areas.

The same it true for the vanguard spells.
They are there because the hard mode charr environment proved too difficult for players.
For example take 2 good friends of mine and their son.
They play Ele and their son plays ranger. They like to vanquish together.
It's easy to say that they should improve their gameplay and I know they are no pro players, however, they don't have full unlocked skills, not all usefull elites and only one spot left for an other character (that would be monk in their team).
One day I vanquished the same ascalon area as them on my mesmer (using heroes, no PvE skills) in about 1 hour. The same evening I helped them (as SoR bonder) and it took us more than 2 hours.
The main reasons: they were kiting towards me when under attack (solved that problem, but they sometimes ran to me in reflex).
And they did not have the skills or experience to spike/shut down a target.
So about half the environment I was explaining them how they could solve the problems they were facing with the skills they had.

Given their gameplay and team setup they can vanquish 6 and 8 person Tyrian areas without problem, just not the 4-man areas.

Also, from a teaming perspective, it's now more beneficial to take an other human player. The 2 human/6 hero combo is/was just too strong to compete timewise except with a very active or organized guild/alliance.

So what they show is how A-net tried to fix a broken PvE game without changing the base mechanics too much.
I don't like it and hope they don't do the same in GW2, but I understand why they did it.

Dr Strangelove · Jan 02, 2008, 09:38 PM // 21:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

Unfortunately, the kind of player that seems to believe themselves entitled to that is more prevalent, hence the continual dumbing down of the game and addition of easymode PvE items and skills to make it more attractive. It's become apparent with the huge shift towards PvE development that profit is the driving factor.

I'd like to see a game that caters more fully towards a certain market and sticks to it despite potential profits from the mainstream MMO audience, but bleh.

It's really not isolated to Guild Wars. In the last 10 years or so, there's been a general movement towards games that everyone can beat fairly easily, especially in the RPG genre. The idea is to prevent frustration, but it really takes away the whole point of the game, namely to overcome a challenge.

I hate to sound like an old fuddy duddy, but I kinda miss the old days of Nintendo and early 90s computer games. I still can't beat most of them, but it feels a hell of a lot more awesome when I finally do.

/get off my lawn!

Terraban · Jan 02, 2008, 09:40 PM // 21:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr Pink57

I've read most of the posts in this thread and I take it GW is more of a job for you then a time to relax, is it not? There are people in this game who play to get away from their kids, spouse, work, and anything else that stresses them out. Therefore they do not want to sit and constantly improve and figure out new builds/ways to get thru a mission/area. All they really wanna do is just play the game for a few ours then go back to their lives thats it nothing more. If the game became to trying or tough GW would have a very low fanbase as a lot of people would still be just out of pre.

As for SY and if it should be nerfed? I dont care if they do or not I'll just play my mesmer more.

pink

If you are just playing to relax for no challenge at all, take your level 20 to Ascalon Area, use 3 level 20 hench, and relax away.

Expecting the whole entire game to be easily completed with a Mending/Healing Hands wammo is a little selfish isn't it? 90% of the game is C+Space-able with Henchmen.

fishy go moo · Jan 02, 2008, 09:54 PM // 21:54

stop QQing about a skill thats overpowered in PVE LOL. ITS RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOING PVE PEOPLE, NO ONE CARES IF THE PRICES GO DOWN IF YOU DO YOUR JUST A GREEDY LITTLE BITCH. AND DONT GIVE ME THE BS ABOUT "OH LOLZ I FARMED FOR 9 HOURS THE PEOPLE WHO FARM SHOULDNT BE OVERTHROWN BY THIS OVERPOWERED SKILL QQ QQ QQ" WELL JUST BECAUSE I KILLED TWO BIRDS WITH ONE STONE I DONT QQ CUZ SOME GUY KILLED 10 BIRDS WITH A SHOTGUN BECAUSE IT TOOK ME 15 HOURS TO KILL TWO BIRDS WITH ONE STONE /caps

RhanoctJocosa · Jan 02, 2008, 09:59 PM // 21:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by fishy go moo

stop QQing about a skill thats overpowered in PVE LOL. ITS RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOING PVE PEOPLE, NO ONE CARES IF THE PRICES GO DOWN IF YOU DO YOUR JUST A GREEDY LITTLE BITCH. AND DONT GIVE ME THE BS ABOUT "OH LOLZ I FARMED FOR 9 HOURS THE PEOPLE WHO FARM SHOULDNT BE OVERTHROWN BY THIS OVERPOWERED SKILL QQ QQ QQ" WELL JUST BECAUSE I KILLED TWO BIRDS WITH ONE STONE I DONT QQ CUZ SOME GUY KILLED 10 BIRDS WITH A SHOTGUN BECAUSE IT TOOK ME 15 HOURS TO KILL TWO BIRDS WITH ONE STONE /caps

stfu+gtfo

OT: Paragons make PvE incredibly easy (moreso than it is already) which is a bad thing. I don't play Paragons in PvE simply because I always monk. I don't play Paragons in PvP (rarely anyway) because they are RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing boring as shit.

Quote:

Originally Posted by wazz

6 para/orders/monk teams ???
Don't even know of the excistence of those

and I spent more then enough time in doa,topk and the deep to atleast know of the excistence of it.

ask [SMS] :P

yesitsrob · Jan 02, 2008, 11:22 PM // 23:22

I think the best thing ever is 6 warriors, 1 orders, 1 monk, to be honest. Epic win build right there.

xDusT II · Jan 03, 2008, 12:09 AM // 00:09

Do I think SY needs a nerf? Yes.
Do I think it's possible to nerf it without blowing up half the community? No.

Too many people are going to whine about grinding up the Kurzick title only to have the skill nerfed, and that's actually understandable. Alot of people did grind for a long time simply for Save Yourselves and it would be a huge kick in the balls if it was somehow adversely changed. If it was ever going to be nerfed, it should have been earlier. Anywho, I say make the armor gain progressive 60...100 or something.

Dervish Kid · Jan 03, 2008, 06:10 AM // 06:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by xDusT II

Do I think SY needs a nerf? Yes.
Do I think it's possible to nerf it without blowing up half the community? No.

Too many people are going to whine about grinding up the Kurzick title only to have the skill nerfed, and that's actually understandable. Alot of people did grind for a long time simply for Save Yourselves and it would be a huge kick in the balls if it was somehow adversely changed. If it was ever going to be nerfed, it should have been earlier. Anywho, I say make the armor gain progressive 60...100 or something.

why do alot of people complain about nerfed skills..geesh stop complaining and find a way around it..thats why u can cross-pro god dang. theres apost on almost every topic about something being nerfed..the skills cant all balance eachother out.

ShadowbaneX · Jan 03, 2008, 06:20 AM // 06:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

I'd like to see a game that caters more fully towards a certain market and sticks to it despite potential profits from the mainstream MMO audience, but bleh.

Translation: I'd like to see a company/corporation refuse to take money.

I wouldn't hold my breath on this one.