Curse

wazz · Dec 28, 2007, 02:53 PM // 14:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moloch Vein

For a person who complains about a guy posting a cat, you sure don't treat other people with a lot of respect, do you?

First: I complainted about him posting a picture instead of actually typing out what he wanted to say. Nothing to do with respect, only with acting childish at max.
Second: read my entire post plz.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moloch Vein

I have the Guardian of Cantha title from using a team configuration of all necromancers, with zero armor boosts, and never more than three human players on the team, for all missions, save for maybe two where I played with a friend who hasn't got a fully grown N up for the task.

Yes, I have played Hard Mode. Your statement is wrong.

Ok so you asume that becuase you have a title, you know it better than anyone else ?
I said clearly that you need skills like sy ---> a skill that makes you take less damage.
Or did you absorb everything that got trown to you ?

yesitsrob · Dec 28, 2007, 02:55 PM // 14:55

You keep bring up this hard mode argument, it's a joke really... On HM it means I'll take like 7 damage from a 20 specced skill as opposed to 4 - alright not the exact numbers but it's something equally miniscule and insignificant.

I can't really say I'm a busy monk when a Paragon Team mate brings SY, Hell I run fricking Consume Soul on my monk at Mallyx when I'm the only human monk in the fricking team...

Quote:

Also you still take quite some damage with sy up and running...

No, you don't. In HM I specifically remember taking 14 damage from each part of Mind Freeze while TNTF was up too, both of which the paragon can keep up for decent lengths of time. Which would mean you'd honestly get away with aggroing 4 groups of enemies and be able to keep the team alive with small prots and very little clean up damage.

You say it has it's weakness, but when you can practically dedicate a character or 2 to simply doing nothing more than keeping the paragon clean it's irrelevant - stopping them from being shut down is much easier than a lot of people in this thread are making it out to be - Because apart from the odd Heal Party no one else will be taking so much damage that you have to heavily prot them or anything, combined with the fact that a lot of shout shutdown is a fricking joke anyway and the enemy AI is terrible, they aren't going to put effort into breaking down your defense, they'll spam soothing on him on recharge, and you'll simply remove it. SO HRD

Quote:

SY isn't overpowered, example: a friend of mine was trying to lure a mob on HM and while luring he got hit by an ele boss his attacks. The ele boss did around 300 damage to him in one spell, without sy on him.

That's a terrible example, that's an example of how some terrible monks failed to prot your friend while he built up enough adrenaline to get SY up, thus making everyone invulnerable. Don't use the terribleness of your friend to justify it not being overpowered

Quote:

Now he is a ranger so he has about 70 armour

While there are exceptions, if it was an ele boss I'd assume the ranger would have 100 armour against him.

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Or do you really think they would have nerfed tntf and seed of life if the comunity wouldn't have asked for it ?

I don't recall the community ever asking for it, the community were still being dumb with their tankz and nukerz - I knew very few people that actually knew of the serious overpoweredness of TNTF - most were too busy going omfg my para can't get into groups QQ they r so baed - I think Anet were correct in doing what they did as those 2 skills were ridiculous. I'd also think they'd be correct if they could get shit right again and sort out the other skills - they likely won't though because they are probably aware of the ability of their general playerbase. Which makes things kind of lame for anyone who doesn't suck at the game because their only real means of a challenge is to PVP, which isn't everyones cup of tea.

If you are still finding PVE a challenge with some of the skills at your disposal right now, you honestly cannot be that good at it. Even without SY HM isn't Hard.

Moloch Vein · Dec 28, 2007, 03:10 PM // 15:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by wazz

Ok so you asume that becuase you have a title, you know it better than anyone else ?

Not because I "have a title", but yes, I do think I know a LOT more about playing a squishie in Hard Mode than you do.

Quote:

I said clearly that you need skills like sy ---> a skill that makes you take less damage.

"Save Yourselves" isn't simply a "skill that makes you take less damage". That's an extremely primitive way of looking at it. "Save Yourselves" is an insane, partywide armor buff that cannot be removed by any means from any of you.

No, you do not need "skills like sy" to do Hard Mode. And actually, as a matter of fact, in some areas I have done exactly what you asked in Hard Mode - soaked up everything they threw at me, because I could outheal it, and make sure they couldn't throw that much.

Racthoh · Dec 28, 2007, 03:13 PM // 15:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by wazz

Skills like sy are the only way to stay alive on HM in atleast 70% of the situations.

Hardmode was introduced months before they brought the PvE only skills into the game. Many players had their Legendary Guardian, and even Legendary Vanquisher, before the introduction of the PvE only skills.

Quote:

SY isn't overpowered, example: a friend of mine was trying to lure a mob on HM and while luring he got hit by an ele boss his attacks. The ele boss did around 300 damage to him in one spell, without sy on him.

This is a matter of not knowing how to play. Why you would try to pull a boss, that you know full well even on NM hits for a lot, without pre-proting the target?

That is also a perfect example of why SY is too strong. 300 damage reduced to nothing on a ranger (100 vs. ele), how is that balanced?

Quote:

Atm I wouldn't know an other way to kill that mob than using SY or using a tank.

Better players would know how to handle the situation. These skills do not teach players to become better. They need to go.

zwei2stein · Dec 28, 2007, 03:46 PM // 15:46

I just dont get it ... how can anyone deny power of stuff like SY? Its beyond ridiculous what that stuff allows you to do.

Whats next? People claiming that prot spirit is useless and that Ursan is okay skill? wait a seccond...

Yes, Rob is right - SY will have to go. (GFTE/WYS treatment.)

Adam of Tyria · Dec 28, 2007, 03:48 PM // 15:48

Most of the skills you mentioned are PvE only skills.
And I am pretty sure the monsters you kill in PvE don't complain that the skills you use are too powerful.

upier · Dec 28, 2007, 04:07 PM // 16:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Racthoh

Better players would know how to handle the situation. These skills do not teach players to become better. They need to go.

Quote:

Originally Posted by zwei2stein

Yes, Rob is right - SY will have to go. (GFTE/WYS treatment.)

I am actually quite in favour of balance in PvE. That's the reason why I so dislike PvE only skills! (Although, strangely I NEVER had this problem with SY and TNTF

)
But I am sick and tired of it always happening at the expense of the player.
As long as foes have half activation times or double damage or use "monster skills" - I am perfectly fine with something as stupidly overpowered as Ursan/SY!

Moloch Vein · Dec 28, 2007, 05:12 PM // 17:12

Complaining about structural monster advantages in PvE is basically the same as admitting you're as stupid as the monsters.

The argument is null and void. The purpose of Hard Mode is for things to be "Hard". Do I like the steps taken, not really. Do I still prefer playing in an environment that at least does present me with a modicum of challenge, yes.

upier · Dec 28, 2007, 05:31 PM // 17:31

It's not about making the game easier.

A character has 200 attribute points to spend.
A character has access to a secondary profession.
A character does not have access to the primary attribute of a secondary profession.
A character can have a maximum of 8 skills on their skill-bar.
A character can have a max of 16 in an attribute.
A character has energy regeneration of 2-4.
A skill is defined by it's cost, recharge, activation time and by the cost, recharge, activation type and type of all other skills.
(among others of course!)

PvE only skills are broken from the start because they fail at the first rule.
Pretty much all of PvE is broken because A.Net was to lazy to implement the rules they created. And because of that - nothing can be too strong in PvE.
Just because we can not even define what "balance in PvE" is!

wazz · Dec 28, 2007, 06:33 PM // 18:33

Ah well than you all disagree with me. fine
If you want to nerf those pve skills. fine
I don't mind if you find that I'm not so good at pve. I'm fine with that to
That you guys are better than me fine

But really how you want to vanquish without the use of pve skills and without an entire humanteam backing you up, without the use of the 'holy' 3 ?

But keep in mind that without those pve skills and without the help of an entire humanteam it is near the inpossible for a 'normal' person to vanquish an area. And personally I find that everyone has the right to do every aspect of the game. And for most people that is where pve skills and cookiecutterbuilds come into play.

Problem with cookiecutterbuild is most of the time it uses only 3-4 different proffesions with the ability to swap in a maximum 2 other proffesions.
Seeing all the different cookiecutterbuilds but 3 proffesions would be able to do everything: necros,monks and eles.

So unless you use pve skills, all of highend pve is undoable for a paragon without the use of pve skills.

You supposely can do it without but most people don't have the resources to do so (no people on there friendlist who are interested in it, same goes for there allaince/guild).

Aside from that most people also don't have enough skills unlocked on there account/character, don't have enough resources to rune up each of there heros nor to buy those heros decent weapons.

So they most of the time pick out a couple of heros and gear em up decent and mabye even ab/ra/ta abit to unlock some skills so they can let there heros use skillbars a friend wispered them or wich they got from the build wiki.

Also most people don't know wich skill each monster uses, yes they can use guildwiki and etc to look it up. But they most of the time don't have enough skills unlocked to counter it decently or don't want to spend 20min planning out a strategy to do an area. So they stick to the builds they unlocked skills for even if that build is total crap for vanquishing that certain area.

So after giving HM a couple of attempt they decide that it is near the inposible for them to do it without using skills like tntf,sy and etc.
Not because they suck but because they don't have the resources/time to make a different team setup for every area.

So they decide to use skills like sy, tntf and etc.

Than some people post a topic and claim those skills are overpowered, that those skills should be removed from the game etc etc.

Now those same people that made a topic about it might be right that sy is overpowered if you look at it while keeping all other normal skills (so none monster) with an normal atribute lvl in mind. Yes they are right then.

But now imagine the person who was trying to vanquish an area, having a hard time even with the use of sy and etc seeing people posting a topic like that. the person trying to vanquish doesn't keep the skills in mind he can use but instead look at the skills enemys use, and how much damage those enemys can cause to his collection of half-decent heros.

Do you even espect that person to agree ?
If it is that person only way to vanquish.

I hope some of you now understand why I disagree mabye a little bit better.
If not, than well I did my best.

So if you look at the other skills you can use; yes it is overpowered !!!

But if you look at what the monsters trow at you, at the rate wich they do, the amount of people you can mobilise to help you, the skills you have unlocked, how well (or bad) your heros are equiped . It doesn't look so overpowered anymore.

If it would be the way some of you want it, but a couple of people would be able to vanquish.

Terraban · Dec 28, 2007, 08:34 PM // 20:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by wazz

Ah well than you all disagree with me. fine
If you want to nerf those pve skills. fine
I don't mind if you find that I'm not so good at pve. I'm fine with that to
That you guys are better than me fine

But really how you want to vanquish without the use of pve skills and without an entire humanteam backing you up, without the use of the 'holy' 3 ?

But keep in mind that without those pve skills and without the help of an entire humanteam it is near the inpossible for a 'normal' person to vanquish an area. And personally I find that everyone has the right to do every aspect of the game. And for most people that is where pve skills and cookiecutterbuilds come into play.

Problem with cookiecutterbuild is most of the time it uses only 3-4 different proffesions with the ability to swap in a maximum 2 other proffesions.
Seeing all the different cookiecutterbuilds but 3 proffesions would be able to do everything: necros,monks and eles.

So unless you use pve skills, all of highend pve is undoable for a paragon without the use of pve skills.

You supposely can do it without but most people don't have the resources to do so (no people on there friendlist who are interested in it, same goes for there allaince/guild).

Aside from that most people also don't have enough skills unlocked on there account/character, don't have enough resources to rune up each of there heros nor to buy those heros decent weapons.

So they most of the time pick out a couple of heros and gear em up decent and mabye even ab/ra/ta abit to unlock some skills so they can let there heros use skillbars a friend wispered them or wich they got from the build wiki.

Also most people don't know wich skill each monster uses, yes they can use guildwiki and etc to look it up. But they most of the time don't have enough skills unlocked to counter it decently or don't want to spend 20min planning out a strategy to do an area. So they stick to the builds they unlocked skills for even if that build is total crap for vanquishing that certain area.

So after giving HM a couple of attempt they decide that it is near the inposible for them to do it without using skills like tntf,sy and etc.
Not because they suck but because they don't have the resources/time to make a different team setup for every area.

So they decide to use skills like sy, tntf and etc.

Than some people post a topic and claim those skills are overpowered, that those skills should be removed from the game etc etc.

Now those same people that made a topic about it might be right that sy is overpowered if you look at it while keeping all other normal skills (so none monster) with an normal atribute lvl in mind. Yes they are right then.

But now imagine the person who was trying to vanquish an area, having a hard time even with the use of sy and etc seeing people posting a topic like that. the person trying to vanquish doesn't keep the skills in mind he can use but instead look at the skills enemys use, and how much damage those enemys can cause to his collection of half-decent heros.

Do you even espect that person to agree ?
If it is that person only way to vanquish.

I hope some of you now understand why I disagree mabye a little bit better.
If not, than well I did my best.

So if you look at the other skills you can use; yes it is overpowered !!!

But if you look at what the monsters trow at you, at the rate wich they do, the amount of people you can mobilise to help you, the skills you have unlocked, how well (or bad) your heros are equiped . It doesn't look so overpowered anymore.

If it would be the way some of you want it, but a couple of people would be able to vanquish.

Summarization: QQ

zwei2stein · Dec 28, 2007, 08:59 PM // 20:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by wazz

But really how you want to vanquish without the use of pve skills and without an entire humanteam backing you up, without the use of the 'holy' 3 ?

By using simple Duality teambuild? Works pretty much everywhere with minor tweaks. Hell, its so good it got its own cookiecutter label (canned laughter).

Quote:

Originally Posted by wazz

But keep in mind that without those pve skills and without the help of an entire humanteam it is near the inpossible for a 'normal' person to vanquish an area. And personally I find that everyone has the right to do every aspect of the game. And for most people that is where pve skills and cookiecutterbuilds come into play.

Problem with cookiecutterbuild is most of the time it uses only 3-4 different proffesions with the ability to swap in a maximum 2 other proffesions.
Seeing all the different cookiecutterbuilds but 3 proffesions would be able to do everything: necros,monks and eles.

So unless you use pve skills, all of highend pve is undoable for a paragon without the use of pve skills.

I use paragon hero when vanquishing. Guess what? he uses no PvE skills, and he is still worth his place in party.

Quote:

Originally Posted by wazz

...

Aside from that most people also don't have enough skills unlocked on there account/character, don't have enough resources to rune up each of there heros nor to buy those heros decent weapons.

So they most of the time pick out a couple of heros and gear em up decent and mabye even ab/ra/ta abit to unlock some skills so they can let there heros use skillbars a friend wispered them or wich they got from the build wiki.

Also most people don't know wich skill each monster uses, yes they can use guildwiki and etc to look it up. But they most of the time don't have enough skills unlocked to counter it decently or don't want to spend 20min planning out a strategy to do an area. So they stick to the builds they unlocked skills for even if that build is total crap for vanquishing that certain area.

First, what are those people doing vanquishing when they lack key skill unlocks? How come they didnt unlock those key skills during normal gameplay? And if they didnt, how come they dont have resources leftover (unspent hero SPs, some platinum in storage) or close aproximations of those skills unlocked?

Between skill quests in prophecies, Factions and NF (yes, even factions/nf gives you about 40 free unlocks), hero skill trainers and plain shelling out 1k and 1sp for skill, they dont have decent bars? Not mentioning that they got most of decent skills on their heroes autounlocked already ... 5-10 minutes in zaishen gives you 1k faction.

Furthermore, decent skillbars share skills, and if area requires change, its not gonna be whole new skillbar, but skill or two on older bar.

As far as equipment goes, people you are refering to are better of havign their heroes unequiped (superior runes ...). If you insist, perfect equipment for hero is about 5k total, tops. survivor runes, minor runes for attributes you use, vitaes elsewhere, buy 2x5 of collector fodder items amd exchange em

Besides, if they are already vanquishing, they can, you know, equip heroes as they progress. keep collectilbe drops and exchange em for better stuff for heroes, vanq gives 1k and 1sp pretty much automatically everywhere, which means at least one unlock per area, which means that you are gonna get unlock you need for next area if its necesary.

Quote:

Originally Posted by wazz

So after giving HM a couple of attempt they decide that it is near the inposible for them to do it without using skills like tntf,sy and etc.
Not because they suck but because they don't have the resources/time to make a different team setup for every area.

Or because they suck. Part of not sucking is having good bar, and its not as hard as you pain it to get one.

And vanquishing is doable with huge variety of builds.

Also, if missing one or two skills still makes you die, dont kid yourself, you are going to fail even with those perfect builds. Its completelly possible pass very hard challenges with limited skillset. Build is only a tool, its usage matters.

i.e. uw with prophecies and core skills in old days.

Quote:

Originally Posted by wazz

...

But now imagine the person who was trying to vanquish an area, having a hard time even with the use of sy and etc seeing people posting a topic like that. the person trying to vanquish doesn't keep the skills in mind he can use but instead look at the skills enemys use, and how much damage those enemys can cause to his collection of half-decent heros.

...

But if you look at what the monsters trow at you, at the rate wich they do, the amount of people you can mobilise to help you, the skills you have unlocked, how well (or bad) your heros are equiped . It doesn't look so overpowered anymore.

That person sucks. He should grind less PvE only stuff and work more on basics.

People who would rather grind reputations and stuff like that than getting vital stuff unlocked or get better or plan for dangerous area dont get much sympathy.

Yes, you cant vanquish that much casually, it sucks, but if you are so casuall that putting together decent teambuild and checking wiki is major pain, you propably have other, more casuall, stuff left to do.

yesitsrob · Dec 28, 2007, 11:41 PM // 23:41

Wazz to an extent I totally can see where you are coming from with a lot of your comments - especially the part about if it wasn't for skills like SY and TNTF people wouldn't make their way into pugs. They really probably wouldn't. Classes like Paragons and Mesmers really have no place in a tank-n-spank PUG build. Which is what people run... which in my opinion is their fault. I will say I think in Guild Wars tank and spank is a very poor way to play the game, but due to that not really being the case in a lot of other games the community seems to run with it... some people remain convinced it's the best way to do things and the only way to do things (I kind of gather from your posts that you think it is one of few ways to do something) but even outside of SY/TNTF as a means of doing things there are so many viable alternatives, much better ones than Tanking and nuking things. Even without extremely powerful skills Paragons are an incredible source of Passive Defense and Physical Offense and are an asset to any _real_ balanced PVE team.

As far as enemy mobs go - they aren't going to match the intelligence of a human - and with nightfall some of the defense balls you can set up are insanely good (and to think armor bonuses used to stack) - to be able to kill a human team they are going to have to be quite strong because it would really be quite hard to give them AI capable of dissecting some defenses - in fairness passive defense is slightly weaker now - weaker to an extent a human team won't struggle as much in breaking it down (as much, it's still not trivial). I know this isn't how people play, people use Eles for dealing damage, Warriors for absorbing it, Monks for keeping warrior alive blahblah, I'm saying if they didn't they'd have means to make themselves very hard to kill.

That said, I think some of the enemy groups in the game are a bit of a cruel jokes. Sharrd's of Orr's 4 BSurge Eles with Eruption, their Rangers with throw dirt, Monks with Shield of Deflection. It really doesn't encourage balanced play when you give a group 4 B Surge Eles - it's obviously not hard to directly counter it, but it's pretty stupid all the same imo. Torment groups in DoA i find to be quite similar. I'm sure there are some anti-caster ones too which may just be over the top, not an actual challenge, but just really silly.

For a lot of reasons mentioned, it wouldn't surprise me if they left SY (and its friends) alone - For the greater population of the game it might actually make things very do-able for them without them having to actually get an understanding of the game - Personallly I believe people should have to learn2play before they are able to steam roll through Hard Mode content. As it stands I'm sure for a lot of players there is still difficult content - But I know for myself, and some people I play with, the only challenge is seeing how quickly we can do said difficult areas - I know as of recent the only things that will make an elite area hard is disconnects and giant lag spikes, not really the kind of challenge people want.

Simath · Dec 29, 2007, 12:26 AM // 00:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by wazz

That you guys are better than me fine

You should become used to accepting others superiority.

xDusT II · Dec 29, 2007, 12:55 AM // 00:55

Since when was "Save Yourself" a requirement to beat Hard Mode?

I went through all of Cantha and Elona without any difficulty using 6 heroes for most missions. Anything that proved harder than we expected was soon remedied by consumables (Gyala hatchery being the only mission we really needed them, seeing how we went the normal way through).

You can still achieve high amounts of defence without having to use "Save Yourself" or a human paragon. SY is a bonus, not a requirement.

Terraban · Dec 29, 2007, 01:01 AM // 01:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by xDusT II

You can still achieve high amounts of defence without having to use "Save Yourself" or a human paragon. SY is a bonus, not a requirement.

Having any armor at all is a bonus, not a requirement...

C WUT I DID THAR?

Avarre · Dec 29, 2007, 06:37 AM // 06:37

Hey guys, the game is meant to reward skill.

If you're bad, you shouldn't be able to complete every area of the game.

This is called creating a reason to improve, and justifying skill over time.

Steboy93 · Dec 30, 2007, 08:11 PM // 20:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skuld

NO U bitch, lets take this to scrim.

Oh my god i can't stop laughing!!

Good stuff

Moloch Vein · Dec 31, 2007, 06:39 AM // 06:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

Pretty much all of PvE is broken because A.Net was to lazy to implement the rules they created. And because of that - nothing can be too strong in PvE.
Just because we can not even define what "balance in PvE" is!

I don't really see how you go from the premise that "the game is poorly designed" to "... so it's ok to make it absolutely non-challenging as well." Sounds like a guy looking for an excuse for not playing the challenging content of the game while still attempting to feel very elite about it.

Also I don't understand all the whining about casting times and the likes. Yes, the monsters in Hard Mode have half casting time. They're "monsters." Meaning, "creatures governed by a really weak AI that's pretty easy to beat."

Yes, I'd prefer actual improvements of the enemy AI, combined with real game rules for monsters (no ridiculous energy regeneration etc.) However I do understand it must be much easier to just put all the bad guys on steroids.

I'm not really sure if balance in PvE would even be desirable, but hell, let me take a shot at defining it.

I believe true "balance" in PvE can only be achieved by implementing a computer AI that is the functional equivalent of a human being. Another aspect of "balance" in PvE would be that all classes are equally strong in PvE - that the worst players can only complete the easiest content, and that only the best players can complete the hardest content. (Say 10% best for 10% hardest & vice versa.)

Right now none of these things are true, and one of them is unlikely to ever become true, so yes, I agree, balance does not exist in PvE. People seem to use this fact to obfuscate the discussion, though.

xDusT II · Dec 31, 2007, 06:48 AM // 06:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moloch Vein

I don't really see how you go from the premise that "the game is poorly designed" to "... so it's ok to make it absolutely non-challenging as well." Sounds like a guy looking for an excuse for not playing the challenging content of the game while still attempting to feel very elite about it.

Also I don't understand all the whining about casting times and the likes. Yes, the monsters in Hard Mode have half casting time. They're "monsters." Meaning, "creatures governed by a really weak AI that's pretty easy to beat."

Yes, I'd prefer actual improvements of the enemy AI, combined with real game rules for monsters (no ridiculous energy regeneration etc.) However I do understand it must be much easier to just put all the bad guys on steroids.

I'm not really sure if balance in PvE would even be desirable, but hell, let me take a shot at defining it.

I believe true "balance" in PvE can only be achieved by implementing a computer AI that is the functional equivalent of a human being. Another aspect of "balance" in PvE would be that all classes are equally strong in PvE - that the worst players can only complete the easiest content, and that only the best players can complete the hardest content. (Say 10% best for 10% hardest & vice versa.)

Right now none of these things are true, and one of them is unlikely to ever become true, so yes, I agree, balance does not exist in PvE. People seem to use this fact to obfuscate the discussion, though.

If the AI was made intelligent, there would be more complaints than if they remained how they were now. People are just that retarded. (Remember all the complaints when Anet introduced monster kiting?)