Curse

jon0592 · Apr 20, 2008, 09:37 PM // 21:37

I just made a para yesterday and I was thinking how para would be with ursan. With 12 leadership you are getting 6 energy everytime you ursan roar. I'm trying to think here, but is that good e-management?

Yichi · Apr 20, 2008, 09:41 PM // 21:41

paras w/ ursan... one word : NO!

Div · Apr 20, 2008, 09:42 PM // 21:42

Why would you make a para for ursan when you can use SY? If you want to go ursan, go warrior or something :P

Tyla · Apr 20, 2008, 09:42 PM // 21:42

Wasting your Paragon's skillset on Ursan = bad.
Imbagon > Ursan.

pfaile · Apr 20, 2008, 09:43 PM // 21:43

A well done para can make an Ursan Team stronger by shouting instead of spamming 1,2,3.

odly · Apr 20, 2008, 10:25 PM // 22:25

How to say this properly :

Paragon is the best profession for Ursan, but they are more powerfull if you don't use it.

But comparing Imbagon and Ursan is silly, Ursan is for dealing damage and Imbagon for reducing damage.

Albert Algorn · Apr 20, 2008, 10:34 PM // 22:34

I usually run as an HB Monk with Ursan groups for dungeons. The other day we had two HB's and a Para and pretty much steam rolled everything in sight. So yeah makes sense...

Hugh Manatee · Apr 20, 2008, 11:16 PM // 23:16

Hell take both, there's not much to the imbagon that you can't stick ursan blessing in there as the elite slot...

Esoteric Mesmer · Apr 20, 2008, 11:18 PM // 23:18

There seems to be some confusion here, if you are going Ursan for general PvE play, like playing through NF that's a bad idea because using regular Paragon skills are much more effective then Ursan.

However, if what I think you are asking is does Paragon make a good Ursan for DOA/UW/FOW, the regular Ursan usage areas, then I would say Paragon is the best choice IMO. The reasoning for this is because Paragon is a non-squishy Ursan (high AL) with decent amount of total energy. Also, since they use shields already, with a 9 in command/motivation you be able to get all 16 armor.

Plus, like you mentioned already decent e-management with high leadership, as well as the ability to use refrains before switching into Ursan form.

Richardt · Apr 20, 2008, 11:34 PM // 23:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by odly

But comparing Imbagon and Ursan is silly, Ursan is for dealing damage and Imbagon for reducing and causing damage damage.

Fixed it for ya

Commander Kanen · Apr 21, 2008, 12:18 AM // 00:18

Paragons make THE BEST ursan's armour al at 80+ 10 w affected by a chant echo or shout. you can keep echo's on you all time so 90 al vs everything. not only that buy you have ursan roar which is a shout = you can gain energy and keep ursan up always nuff said

Action Jacson · Apr 21, 2008, 02:52 AM // 02:52

Well, I disprove of Paragons using Ursan or spirits, but you can keep them up easily you gain alot of energy with shouts

DarkSpirit · Apr 21, 2008, 03:44 AM // 03:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Action Jacson

Well, I disprove of Paragons using Ursan or spirits, but you can keep them up easily you gain alot of energy with shouts

Disapprove? Geez...are you our dad wanna-be?

Antithesis · Apr 21, 2008, 04:24 AM // 04:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

Disapprove? Geez...are you our dad wanna-be?

I dunno, ask your mother

(stock-standard Dad response)

DarkSpirit · Apr 21, 2008, 05:15 PM // 17:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antithesis

I dunno, ask your mother

(stock-standard Dad response)

My mother has much better taste than that.

BTW, Paragons make good Ursans and I dont see why an Imbagon can't Ursan too, especially when you are the last man standing, spamming SY! would be totally useless.

matsif · Apr 21, 2008, 09:00 PM // 21:00

lol, if you are running imbagon right no one should die therefore your last one standing argument doesnt work.

it isn't a bad idea, but paragons are better for other things in my opinion.

DarkSpirit · Apr 22, 2008, 05:06 AM // 05:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by matsif

lol, if you are running imbagon right no one should die therefore your last one standing argument doesnt work.

it isn't a bad idea, but paragons are better for other things in my opinion.

Actually after running an imbagon with H/H across all of GWEN HM, I am realizing that imbagons are not as invincible as many here seem to think.

Sure, the 100 armor from SY! is nice if you can keep it up with the adrenaline, if you are not blinded, or your attacks blocked, or hexed with faintheartedness/soothing images, or your orders D/N chased around/killed, etc. Furthermore, there are still many ways of getting around that 100 armor which many places in HM do get around it well.

The "no one should die when running an imbagon right" argument is not as guaranteed as you think.

Savio · Apr 22, 2008, 05:09 AM // 05:09

That's why the rest of the team is dedicated to keeping the imbagon going. And when was the last time you saw the enemy actively trying to get around +100 AL?

DarkSpirit · Apr 22, 2008, 05:37 AM // 05:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Savio

That's why the rest of the team is dedicated to keeping the imbagon going. And when was the last time you saw the enemy actively trying to get around +100 AL?

Having the rest of the team configured to support SY! also gives a single point of failure.

Let's take the Orders D/N for example, if she is being chased around she stops casting Dark Fury, causing a break in the SY chain. Both Dark Fury, OOP has steep life sacrifices so she needs some self heal or rely on the monks. Or she can be killed and gain DP.

Monsters can also exploit enchantments on your guys (since you are using orders and DF) in areas with skills that benefit against enchanted foes. Even shatter enchantments do 100+ armor ignoring damage in HM. Also multiple casters with Aegis can screw up your attacks. Burning/Bleeding/Poison/Disease all ignore armor with knockdown and AoE attacks can still cause a team wipe in HM, if you are not careful, even with an Imbagon.

You basically need to configure your hero builds around the different PvE areas in HM even though you are using an Imbagon. You are not as invincible as people think and certainly expect deaths within your team, especially in some of the toughest dungeons in HM.

The "if you are running imbagon right no one should die" argument is definitely an exaggeration and shouldn't be treated literally or I would call it a joke.

Kale Ironfist · Apr 22, 2008, 06:30 AM // 06:30

Let's put this in order, you argue:
1. Orders is dying while under "SY!", causing "SY!" chain to drop
2. Enchantments can be exploited
3. Blocking stops it
4. Conditions aren't affected by armor
5. Knockdowns and AoE affect you more than normal.

I argue:
1. Dark Fury has a 3/4 activation time, you have ~600 health and have +100 armor due to "Save Yourselves!". You will not be dying quickly, so any prot+heal will keep you well alive while you kite in between each Dark Fury. Thus, no big deal unless the D/N Orders doesn't know how to kite, or the Monk isn't paying attention. We assume that neither situation happens, because it isn't affected by the imbagon build.

2. The worst enchantment exploit is Shatter Enchantment and Strip Enchantment. Neither are particularly bad, since the you'll have at most 3 or 4 enchantments at once, which means you won't be going down unless you weren't at close to full health (not imbagons fault), or "Save Yourselves!" wasn't up (something happened to not have "Save Yourselves!" up on the character - may be imbagons' fault, maybe not.)

3. Rigor Mortis, target switching, removing the source of the block. Therefore, not imbagon builds' problem.

4. Degeneration conditions do pitiful amounts, and can be easily removed through a myriad of ways, most notably Foul Feast.

5. This is where the team support shines. You can either avoid the knockdown through kiting away from where it would appear, or bring along anti-knockdown skills. As for AoE, so long as you all don't stand within adjacent/nearby (you've got earshot), the party won't collapse under the strain. Moreover, most AoE is affected by armor anyway, so your "Save Yourselves!" reduces it.

As far as I can glean from your arguments, you're saying stupidity breaks the incredible resilience "Save Yourselves!" adds to your team. Which indicates that it is not the builds' fault, but the players'.