Curse

cellardweller · Jul 01, 2008, 08:48 AM // 08:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by odly

It'll cost you just as much adrenalin as you're gaining by attacking faster.
So it's basically a wasted skillslot.

Except for the whole +50% dps thing...

Lets also not forget that AR effectively costs 2 slots for a non-imbagon because you need to bring either AoF, ToF or AoW to support it.

Kale Ironfist · Jul 01, 2008, 11:51 AM // 11:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by cellardweller

Except for the whole +50% dps thing...

Lets also not forget that AR effectively costs 2 slots for a non-imbagon because you need to bring either AoF, ToF or AoW to support it.

Given the fact that both AR and SF both require a shout/chant (of ANY type), are you implying SF doesn't need a shout/chant?

More importantly, AR is more flexible, since it only needs an ending shout/chant, versus keeping one on you at all times.

The only real difference between the two is the +17% difference in attack rate and no cracked armor in exchange for being an elite skill.

cellardweller · Jul 01, 2008, 12:43 PM // 12:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kale Ironfist

Given the fact that both AR and SF both require a shout/chant (of ANY type), are you implying SF doesn't need a shout/chant?

More importantly, AR is more flexible, since it only needs an ending shout/chant, versus keeping one on you at all times.

The only real difference between the two is the +17% difference in attack rate and no cracked armor in exchange for being an elite skill.

No, I said flail is a better option. Using an elite skill slot for an IAS is madness.

odly · Jul 01, 2008, 05:44 PM // 17:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by cellardweller

Lets also not forget that AR effectively costs 2 slots for a non-imbagon because you need to bring either AoF, ToF or AoW to support it.

TNTF is the only thing you need to keep AR going. I have a hard time imagining a paragon not bringing that. (Well not really, but if they're not they should.)

Shaz · Jul 01, 2008, 06:19 PM // 18:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by cellardweller

Except for the whole +50% dps thing...

Lets also not forget that AR effectively costs 2 slots for a non-imbagon because you need to bring either AoF, ToF or AoW to support it.

Yea, but it worth it for AR and if you're a paragon, having a shout/chant or 2 is an easy condition to meet. And it's not like those chant and shout are useless anyway, well maybe ToF if you don't have an efficient way to inflict burning. And those aren't the only Chant you have to bring to upkeep AR.

AR is the best IAS for a paragon, you can use other but it won't be as efficient in term of cost/maintenance-wise, and if you can't keep AR up you're just bad /thread

cellardweller · Jul 02, 2008, 02:04 AM // 02:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by odly

TNTF is the only thing you need to keep AR going. I have a hard time imagining a paragon not bringing that. (Well not really, but if they're not they should.)

TNTF is also a broken PvE skill - using it makes any acheivements just as meaningless as if you'd used SY, Ursan or consumables.

Quote:

Originally Posted by shaz

Yea, but it worth it for AR and if you're a paragon, having a shout/chant or 2 is an easy condition to meet. And it's not like those chant and shout are useless anyway, well maybe ToF if you don't have an efficient way to inflict burning. And those aren't the only Chant you have to bring to upkeep AR.

AR is the best IAS for a paragon, you can use other but it won't be as efficient in term of cost/maintenance-wise, and if you can't keep AR up you're just bad /thread

Take a pretty typical Spearagon build as an example

You'd want 3 spear attacks: [spear of lightning][chest thumper][wild throw]
An energy source: [go for the eyes]
Some sort of party support: [Defensive Anthem][signet of return]

Which leaves 2 slots for your IAS. Now, IF your party has a good source of burning like a SF ele you'd have no argument from me, the optimal choice is clearly [They're on fire][aggressive refrain]

If thats not the case, then you're chosing between
([anthem of flame] or [anthem of weariness])[aggressive refrain] ( because of [enfeebling blood], [anthem of weariness] is pointless so lets stick with [anthem of flame]) and [blank][flail] (lets throw somthing like [anthem of envy] in there).

[Anthem of Flame][Aggressive Refrain]
Advantages:
No warm up time when adrenaline voids

[Anthem of Envy][flail]
Advantages:
AoE has higher dps than AoF
Faster attack speed
Able to walk between fights without having to continually stop to chant

I think lining those two choices up, flail is the pretty clear winner (the 3rd advantage alone would be enough to make me choose it). I'm not saying that [aggressive refrain] isn't an awesome skill - its clearly tier 1, but trying to assert that its always the best ias for a paragon is a falsehood.

Shaz · Jul 02, 2008, 04:21 AM // 04:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by cellardweller

TNTF is also a broken PvE skill - using it makes any acheivements just as meaningless as if you'd used SY, Ursan or consumables.

But Paragon is a broken profession. Are you saying that you won't use anything that is broken? For example, you would never use a Necro for SR either? A challenging game is good, but making the game challenging by using subpar skill is not smart. That's why I don't have a problem with people using SY, Ursan, cons, etc. because I sometime use it myself. I want skills balances, but until it happen, I'm not about to gimp my build with lesser skills.

[spear of lightning][chest thumper][wild throw]["go for the eye!"][Defensive Anthem][signet of return][Anthem of Flame][Aggressive Refrain]

[spear of lightning][chest thumper][wild throw]["go for the eye!"][Defensive Anthem][signet of return][Anthem of Envy][flail]

Of those two I would definitely use the first one. Flail will compete with 3 other adrenaline skills, one of which you pretty much almost use on recharge (GFTE). With Flail lasting only 5 sec, you will have to almost spam it on recharge also since you don't have any skill to gain addtional adrenaline. Look like more work to upkeep it then AR while in a fight.

And outside of battle...

Quote:

Originally Posted by cellardweller

Able to walk between fights without having to continually stop to chant

I never have a problem keeping up with my party while upkeeping AR. It's not like PvE Mobs are few and far inbetween anyway.

cellardweller · Jul 02, 2008, 04:51 AM // 04:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shaz

But Paragon is a broken profession.

If you ignore the gamebreaking pve skills, paragons are pretty well balanced in a pve context. Physicals are stronger in a HM context, but thats a factor of the silly armour levels they've given the red dots, not the skills themselves.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shaz

Are you saying that you won't use anything that is broken? For example, you would never use a Necro for SR either?

I wouldn't describe the current SR as broken (the old unbounded one yes), it provides an extra 5-6 pips of energy and necro skills are costed accordingly. The perception of its power largely comes from the fact that heroes are incapable of successfully managing their own energy or using energy management skills so they benefit much more from the passive nature of SR in comparison.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shaz

A challenging game is good, but making the game challenging by using subpar skill is not smart. That's why I don't have a problem with people using SY, Ursan, cons, etc. because I sometime use it myself. I want skills balances, but until it happen, I'm not about to gimp my build with lesser skills.

Do you use cheat codes in games too? If a pve skills/cons make it impossible for your party to be killed, whats the difference?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shaz

[spear of lightning][chest thumper][wild throw]["go for the eye!"][Defensive Anthem][signet of return][Anthem of Flame][Aggressive Refrain]
[spear of lightning][chest thumper][wild throw]["go for the eye!"][Defensive Anthem][signet of return][Anthem of Envy][flail]
Of those two I would definitely use the first one. Flail will compete with 3 other adrenaline skills, one of which you pretty much almost use on recharge (GFTE). With Flail lasting only 5 sec, you will have to almost spam it on recharge also since you don't have any skill to gain addtional adrenaline. Look like more work to upkeep it then AR while in a fight.

The cost of using flail on GftE is non-existent because the flail cost comes during the GftE recharge so the only effect that the flail cost has is on the wild strike charge time. Under AR you're gaining .89a/sec whereas under flail you're gaining 1a/s but spending .2a. This means that AR gets wild strike charged 11.25% faster at the cost of having 11% less DPS.

Flail itself doesn't take any work to keep up, its a stance and can be used during attacks/skills.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shaz

I never have a problem keeping up with my party while upkeeping AR. It's not like PvE Mobs are few and far inbetween anyway.

I'm mainly talking in a h/h context seeing as thats the way that most of pve is played. Its not a case of not keeping up, its a case of giving the entire party a 10% movement penalty.

Shaz · Jul 02, 2008, 05:18 AM // 05:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by cellardweller

If you ignore the gamebreaking pve skills, paragons are pretty well balanced in a pve context. Physicals are stronger in a HM context, but thats a factor of the silly armour levels they've given the red dots, not the skills themselves.

PvE skills just add to their imbalanced, they are not balanced even without PvE skill. Fast attack rate (only slightly slower than axe, sword, and dagger, but then they are in IAS 24/7) with ranged, high armor as you mentioned, unlimited energy, and unremovable buffs.

Quote:

Originally Posted by cellardweller

I wouldn't describe the current SR as broken (the old unbounded one yes), it provides an extra 5-6 pips of energy and necro skills are costed accordingly. The perception of its power largely comes from the fact that heroes are incapable of successfully managing their own energy or using energy management skills so they benefit much more from the passive nature of SR in comparison.

The current version of SR is still as powerful as ever. You either don't kill that fast then the timer is a non issue, or if you kill fast then you wouldn't need the extra energy anyway since most should already be dead. Maybe it's just me, but the change to SR didn't feel much different than before to me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by cellardweller

Do you use cheat codes in games too? If a pve skills/cons make it impossible for your party to be killed, whats the difference?

Wow, there is a different between using the skill in game to your advantage and cheating like cheat code. Sorry, maybe I should've said, use the best strategies possible to win within reasonable boundary ><

Quote:

Originally Posted by cellardweller

The cost of using flail on GftE is non-existent because the flail cost comes during the GftE recharge so the only effect that the flail cost has is on the wild strike charge time. Under AR you're gaining .89a/sec whereas under flail you're gaining 1a/s but spending .2a. This means that AR gets wild strike charged 11.25% faster at the cost of having 11% less DPS.

Ok, it's too late for me to do math atm, so I'll take your word for it for now. All I know is 25% IAS = 1.13s per attack for spear and 33% IAS = 1s.

Quote:

Originally Posted by cellardweller

Flail itself doesn't take any work to keep up, its a stance and can be used during attacks/skills.

I know, I meant you have to smash it more

Quote:

Originally Posted by cellardweller

I'm mainly talking in a h/h context seeing as thats the way that most of pve is played. Its not a case of not keeping up, its a case of giving the entire party a 10% movement penalty.

I don't think it's anywhere near 10%, but I understand why you use it now. I still wouldn't use Flail though or any other IAS other than AR though. Maybe drunken with cons if I'm lazy and don't want to bring some other PvE skill instead.

Div · Jul 02, 2008, 09:34 AM // 09:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Racthoh

After you use Soldier's Fury 6 times you've spent more energy than Aggressive Refrain. +4 leadership helms are great for that first aggy cast also.

Winner. Soldier's fury is just a waste of energy and elite slot. It's fun if you like to run second-rate builds, but aggressive's the way to go.

Jormungandr · Jul 04, 2008, 08:22 AM // 08:22

Soldier's Fury is good if you keep getting lag spikes that cause you to constantly lose your AR...*grumble*

la_cabra_de_vida · Jul 04, 2008, 09:20 AM // 09:20

[dwarven stability] + [frenzy]

If your in nm, who cares.