Curse

Tyla · May 29, 2008, 06:56 PM // 18:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkNecrid

Right so, since unlike PvE, PvP doesn't have predetermined enemies, I'm supposed to run an anti-Paragon skill on my bar, and pray to God there is a paragon on the enemy team, or else I have a 7 skill bar?

And pray they don't have hex removal...

isamu kurosawa · May 29, 2008, 07:02 PM // 19:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Songbringer

They could just buff the wild's. You know the wild blow wild strike and wild throw. To remove chants and shouts or something like that. I don't know how many played during beta but there was a skill that a warrior had to remove wards. Something like that would be nice for weapon spells and chants. Maybe like a warrior shout that was like Be Quiet or I Command You To Shut Up. That removed all chants shouts and anthems. Weapon spells could weaked by allowing shatter/rend/inspire and the 15 million other enchant removers to also include weapon spells.

How about "shut uppa your face!"

Spura · Jun 08, 2008, 02:55 PM // 14:55

Anyone calling Chants "unremovable buffs" requires a punch in the windpipe. Buffs are things that give some benefit while in effect. Chants give benefit when they end. So saying paragon has imba unremovable chants just shows how much of a moron you are. They provide no benefit while in effect so why should you try to remove them? Song of Restoration is nothing else than Light of Deliverance with a delay.
How do you counter LoD? With interrupts.
How do you counter chants? With same interrupts.(mesmer interrupts work just fine)
Whining rivers of tears about the imbaness of unremovable chants is like crying that heal party is unremovable.

If chants are buffs then so is Patient Spirit enchantment. But it isn't, it's a 2 sec delayed heal.

Also all this crying about unremovable...how often do stances actually get removed?
There also are pure skills, like Troll's Unguent, Warrior's Cunning, Singnet Of Strength that are unremovable.
There also are echantsments that are too brief in duration and too often applied to be practically removed. Something like Shield of Absorbtion, Order of Pain....
etc....

Anyway to reiterate my first thought, people crying over unremovability need to be punched...hard.

People cry about 213214123 reasons paragons are imba, but there's really only one.
The only one reason for paragon's imba is as follows.
Paragons are imba because they have full physical character DPS while also shelling out a lot of party healing(if motiv) or damage reduction(if command).

That's it. If they did 40% less autoattack DPS we wouldn't have this problem.
The leadership isn't a problem(if is a burden rather, like expertise, skills are priced with leadership in mind, 2 pip prof could never run para skills without leadership, like ranger can't pay those expensive attacks without expertise).
The abundance of energy is not a problem(with requirement to have 3 attributues high, leadership 10 for energy, command or motivation 10 for shield and spear mastery 10 for spears, it is really hard to spec into a secondary high enough to abuse all that energy).
The skills themselves are not a problem(they have been nerfed so far it's ridiculous. Paragon secondaries are almost never seen and even then it's just R/P spear. Absence of paragon secondaries shows how crap para skills are).

It's just the ability to deal full offense DPS while providing some worthwhile defensive support/healing that's problematical. I'd love to see anet cut spear base DPS and buff support skills, but they have been going into opposite direction, nerfing all support and occasionally buffing spear skills. Making paragons boring ass ranged physical damage dealer. Yawn.

P.S. notice how of all the para elites, the only one still used in pvp is Cruel Spear. Support skills are all but gone.

Alex the Great · Jun 08, 2008, 04:32 PM // 16:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkNecrid

Right so, since unlike PvE, PvP doesn't have predetermined enemies, I'm supposed to run an anti-Paragon skill on my bar, and pray to God there is a paragon on the enemy team, or else I have a 7 skill bar?

just like it is unfair to have to run-

blind skills- what if they have no physicals? or they have foul feast or RC?
hex removal- what if they arn't running any necros or mesmers?
run skills- what if you don't even make it to running relics?

the list goes on and on.

you have 8 guys on your team, 64 total skills. are you saying you cant bring vocal minority, any blind skills, adren/ energy denial, or cacaphony? para's suck in GvG splits, it cuts thier energy managment down half baisicly.

seriously, all this "paras are oped" talk gives them more credit than they deserve.

Avarre · Jun 08, 2008, 04:35 PM // 16:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spura

Anyone calling Chants "unremovable buffs" requires a punch in the windpipe. Buffs are things that give some benefit while in effect. Chants give benefit when they end. So saying paragon has imba unremovable chants just shows how much of a moron you are. They provide no benefit while in effect so why should you try to remove them?

[skill]Defensive Anthem[/skill]

What up.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alex the Great

are you saying you cant bring vocal minority, any blind skills

Theorycrafting from someone who clearly doesn't PvP. In order to bring a Paragon shutdown hex, you need to be running a full hex build or something close. Throwing a single hex out, such a powerful hex at that, is going to get it removed almost instantly. Unless you can overload their hex removal or disrupt their hex removal enough to stick the hex, it has no real effect. Sure, you can run hex builds, but not everyone does.

As for blind, people do bring that, yet Warriors still kill things. This is because of a magical thing called removal.

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para's suck in GvG splits, it cuts thier energy managment down half baisicly.

Not a very important fact, because people don't use them on GvG splits. People don't typically use Dom mesmers on splits either, but if you think that makes them weak, I have only one question: are your parents blood related?

Tyla · Jun 08, 2008, 04:45 PM // 16:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spura

Anyone calling Chants "unremovable buffs" requires a punch in the windpipe. Buffs are things that give some benefit while in effect. Chants give benefit when they end. So saying paragon has imba unremovable chants just shows how much of a moron you are. They provide no benefit while in effect so why should you try to remove them? Song of Restoration is nothing else than Light of Deliverance with a delay.

[defensive anthem][aggressive refrain][bladeturn refrain][burning refrain][mending refrain][hasty refrain][soldier's fury] Yeah, they don't.

Oh yeah, chants ARE unremovable buffs...

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How do you counter LoD? With interrupts.
How do you counter chants? With same interrupts.(mesmer interrupts work just fine)

You've kind of missed out shouts.

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The skills themselves are not a problem(they have been nerfed so far it's ridiculous. Paragon secondaries are almost never seen and even then it's just R/P spear. Absence of paragon secondaries shows how crap para skills are).

Look at a Paragon's armour level. Look at it's unremovable IAS. Look at it's energy management. Look at base spear damage.

Quote:

P.S. notice how of all the para elites, the only one still used in pvp is Cruel Spear. Support skills are all but gone.

Wrong. Defensive Anthem is still in use.

TheKingofSharks · Jul 07, 2008, 01:39 PM // 13:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

[defensive anthem][aggressive refrain][bladeturn refrain][burning refrain][mending refrain][hasty refrain][soldier's fury] Yeah, they don't.

Oh yeah, chants ARE unremovable buffs...

Hmm, only one chant there. The rest are echos.

Meh, in my experience paragons aren't incredible all powerful killing machines in either pvp or pve. Otherwise everybody would be using them! Or something.
I don't have borderline disturbing knowledge of the game and its skills but when playing as a paragon there have been many that have basically shut me down.
Energy draining skills do effect the 'unlimited' energy paragons have. Especially when you're brought down to zero and your shouts are only giving you 4 energy a shot. It just goes bye bye.
Those skills that stop you gaining adrenaline are a bastard and so is blind.

I mean, when in a team and I'm face to face with a paragon I don't go "Oh crap, I'm going to die" I usually kill the bugger. Having a paragon in your team does not ensure victory.
Hehe, I just don't see why everyone is moaning about them.

DarkNecrid · Jul 07, 2008, 01:50 PM // 13:50

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Hmm, only one chant there. The rest are echos.

The Echoes fulfill the condition of the skills he listed.

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Meh, in my experience paragons aren't incredible all powerful killing machines in either pvp or pve. Otherwise everybody would be using them! Or something.

Everyone does use them, or something.

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Energy draining skills do effect the 'unlimited' energy paragons have.

Hardly.

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Especially when you're brought down to zero and your shouts are only giving you 4 energy a shot. It just goes bye bye.

*8.

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Those skills that stop you gaining adrenaline are a bastard and so is blind.

wowzer I guess ever melee class sucks then...

Stop looking at a single class 8 skill environment, and look at a 8 class 64 skill environment. If you're getting anti-adrenalined (no one runs this in any mode of worth) or blinded, something is up.

Quote:

I mean, when in a team and I'm face to face with a paragon I don't go "Oh crap, I'm going to die" I usually kill the bugger. Having a paragon in your team does not ensure victory.
Hehe, I just don't see why everyone is moaning about them.

Going by the fact you said 4 energy, I am asuming you are talking about RA/TA, in which case I laugh at you because Paragons suck there (but not completely, animal paragons pretty much OWNZ), yes, because their entire motif is shouts and leadership which only works in 8 person team environments. What makes them good is long range sword DPS, an unstrippable Aegis elite, infinite energy, party wide 64 dps booster that is unstrippable, infinite duration unstrippable IAS, an elite that provides a fairly long duration dazed...I could go on.

TheKingofSharks · Jul 07, 2008, 02:00 PM // 14:00

So, Paragons suck in RA, TA and...AB I assume? I have played a bit of all three.

But they're a godlike unbalanced force in all other pvp. I see the problem.

Unless we're PvP fascist or something. Then all is wonderful. Hehe, it's still moaning.

DarkNecrid · Jul 07, 2008, 02:22 PM // 14:22

yes they suck in those 3 because they only get 4 energy from a shout, which is pretty okay except for the fact you're still losing energy off of Anthem of Flame, whereas in every other mode (forgot HB) they get a net gain on most of their crap.

also they aren't meant to be a killing force per se. Just like swords they are more pressure oriented while providing amazing unstrippable party wide shouts.

wtb party wide weapon spells.

Tyla · Jul 07, 2008, 03:11 PM // 15:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheKingofSharks

Hmm, only one chant there. The rest are echos.

Either way, they are infact imbalanced skills.

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Meh, in my experience paragons aren't incredible all powerful killing machines in either pvp or pve. Otherwise everybody would be using them! Or something.

They aren't ment to be all powerful killing machines.

They deal slightly less damage than a Warrior with the application of deep wound being a bit harder, at range while throwing out defensive / offensive buffs.

Quote:

I don't have borderline disturbing knowledge of the game and its skills but when playing as a paragon there have been many that have basically shut me down.

Name them then. Not crappy hexes with a recharge of 20, and not common anti-melee debuffs. Why? Monks.

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Energy draining skills do effect the 'unlimited' energy paragons have. Especially when you're brought down to zero and your shouts are only giving you 4 energy a shot. It just goes bye bye.

Yet that energy would be back in what, a few seconds?

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Those skills that stop you gaining adrenaline are a bastard and so is blind.

Yeah I know, it's a shame there isn't something called hex removal or condition removal.

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I mean, when in a team and I'm face to face with a paragon I don't go "Oh crap, I'm going to die" I usually kill the bugger. Having a paragon in your team does not ensure victory.

It did?

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Hehe, I just don't see why everyone is moaning about them.

Because you are clueless in the subject.

isamu kurosawa · Jul 07, 2008, 03:13 PM // 15:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

***truth***

Well, That saves me from having to type a long post.

lustnlood · Jul 08, 2008, 11:36 PM // 23:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkNecrid

oh right, you mean Blinding Surge, the skill that just got nerfed to shit? Good one.

Draining infinite energy is impossible.

That'd be cool if Paras used chants that required adrenaline to use. They use Anthem of Flame, which requires Energy to make more energy than it costs.

Right so, since unlike PvE, PvP doesn't have predetermined enemies, I'm supposed to run an anti-Paragon skill on my bar, and pray to God there is a paragon on the enemy team, or else I have a 7 skill bar?

my friends... this is what a person who has never played a paragon sounds like.... dude ( which btw means "camel's ball sack" in old english) play a para then see... there are many things that blind a para and the infinite energy is based on adrenal skills ... anthem of flame will give you 1 maybe 2 energy if running 14 leaderhip... which omg... you are an infinite mana sink ... lol go sleep or drown yourself or something... if you want nerfing go nerf necros ffs or those dervs... now those need nerfing ..

Tyla · Jul 09, 2008, 11:43 AM // 11:43

My friends...the above poster is what a person who is clueless sounds like.

Give me an option of Blind that is viable in competetive play. (As Dark said, B-Surge got nerfed to shit, and there are more terrifying offensive classes to blind in the first place)
Give me a skill that can drain the majority of the Paragon's, and other attacking classes energy in competetive play. (Spirit Shackles? No.)
Give me a skill that is a decent anti-adrenal skill in competetive play. (And if it was used, it would probably be interrupted or removed alot and Warriors would also be "easily countered".)

And by the way, it's not only Dervs that need a nerf, and in terms of Necros, the only skill imbalanced is Foul Feast.

DarkNecrid · Jul 09, 2008, 11:48 AM // 11:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by lustnlood

my friends... this is what a person who has never played a paragon sounds like.... dude ( which btw means "camel's ball sack" in old english) play a para then see... there are many things that blind a para and the infinite energy is based on adrenal skills ... anthem of flame will give you 1 maybe 2 energy if running 14 leaderhip... which omg... you are an infinite mana sink ... lol go sleep or drown yourself or something... if you want nerfing go nerf necros ffs or those dervs... now those need nerfing ..

yep never played a paragon. totally should go kill myself for that.

???

AoF gives you 3 energy, 8-5 = 3. gr8, a math lesson.

GFTE gives you 8 energy. 8-0 = 8. huzzah.

All their energy skills costs 5 energy that you would use. Most of them are shouts. Some are attacks you use for pressure so you use them occasionally anyways. The rest are things like [Expel Hexes] or [Mirror of Disenchantment] both things you use sparingly anyways.

I hate to say this since I'm not exactly the best player around either but it is fairly obvious you have absolutely no clue what you are talking about and need to l2p.

JONO51 · Jul 09, 2008, 04:44 PM // 16:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by lustnlood

my friends... this is what a person who has never played a paragon sounds like.... dude ( which btw means "camel's ball sack" in old english) play a para then see... there are many things that blind a para and the infinite energy is based on adrenal skills ... anthem of flame will give you 1 maybe 2 energy if running 14 leaderhip... which omg... you are an infinite mana sink ... lol go sleep or drown yourself or something... if you want nerfing go nerf necros ffs or those dervs... now those need nerfing ..

Yes and [[Spear of Redemption] removes that blind...

DarkNecrid · Jul 09, 2008, 04:50 PM // 16:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by JONO51

Yes and [[Spear of Redemption] removes that blind...

Spear of Redemption is bad because you need to have the Adrenaline (which is hard to gain if you're blind). If you have [Spear of Fury], it can be semi useful if you have a condition spreader because [Spear of Fury] will give you Adrenaline even if it misses.

Should still leave it to your Monks or something.

Calista Blackblood · Jul 09, 2008, 07:47 PM // 19:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkNecrid

Spear of Redemption is bad because you need to have the Adrenaline (which is hard to gain if you're blind). If you have [Spear of Fury], it can be semi useful if you have a condition spreader because [Spear of Fury] will give you Adrenaline even if it misses.

Should still leave it to your Monks or something.

90% chance of failing to hit while blinded.its all about "if" you hit

JONO51 · Jul 09, 2008, 08:31 PM // 20:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkNecrid

Spear of Redemption is bad because you need to have the Adrenaline (which is hard to gain if you're blind). If you have [Spear of Fury], it can be semi useful if you have a condition spreader because [Spear of Fury] will give you Adrenaline even if it misses.

Should still leave it to your Monks or something.

Generally I find that by the time I get hit by blind, I will have built up 3 adren easily, so it isnt an issue imo. But yeah, it is bad if you got a blindbot locked on you or something.