Curse

Crimson Flame · Jul 14, 2008, 03:17 PM // 15:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bowstring Badass

They don't stack past +25.

Also sword dps from a range is broken. I can basically run a sword warrior but with an IAS that never ends. Paragons = broken.

Rebirth your math is wrong. You can't get save yourselves onto yourself unless someone else in your party is using it as well.

He mentioned two SY Paras running together.

And I think that to a certain extent, PvE only skills are broken as a whole. I mean, look at something like Eternal Aura+Avatar of Melandru on dervishes. That's an unstrippable, permanent immunity to conditions (melee's main shutdown), susceptible only to interrupts. Sure, SY and TNtF are broken, but I think it's the general trend to make higher-end PvE accessible to more people. That's just my opinion, though.

Tyla · Jul 14, 2008, 03:20 PM // 15:20

^
And if you're /Mo or /N, you have a condition removal that is basically immunity to conditions.

DarkNecrid · Jul 14, 2008, 03:25 PM // 15:25

A Me/Mo can use Fast Casting and [Mindbender] and [Ebon Vanguard Battle Standard of Wisdom] and [Lava Arrows] and [Mark of Rodgort] to do MASSIVE FIRE DOMAGE!!!!1!!!! IMNBA!!!!!

lol.

Snow Bunny · Jul 14, 2008, 05:00 PM // 17:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by rebirthofdragon

Sure, it has great energy gain and fast adrenaline, but there's virtually no offense!

Except it puts out the same damage a warrior puts out with a sword. Paragons do significant amounts of damage.

Quote:

I suppose that, as far as providing party-wide defenses and moderate damage is concerned, Paragons do it better than anyone else.

You just negated your previous statemate. However, the fact that Paragons provide party-wise defense in addition to significant damage is already pushing the boundary,

Quote:

But since they don't really kill anything, I don't see how they're broken.

With the rather cookie-cutter imbagon build, you're spamming two attack skills on charge, averaging a nice ~35-45 DPS, in addition to maintaining ~82% damage reduction on the team, not to mention placing Ebon Battle Standard of Honor to add an additional chunk of damage.

You doing the jobs of several characters as well as or better than they and you can do it quite easily.

Quote:

Auto-attacking and occasionally throwing up shouts hardly seems like it would make for a OMG TOO GOOD character.

You must take into account what damage you're doing with your autoattacks and what those shouts you're throwing up do.

Also - most people seem to forget that you can shatter enchantments. You can't strip a shout. Keep that in mind.

wetsparks · Jul 14, 2008, 08:58 PM // 20:58

Just to defend myself for forgetting that one skill, I did look on wiki cuz I thought it had to do with another skill but it only lists spear of fury under kurzick/luxon skills. not save yourselves.
http://guildwars.wikia.com/wiki/Kurzick/Luxon_skill

Bowstring Badass · Jul 14, 2008, 09:02 PM // 21:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

^
And if you're /Mo or /N, you have a condition removal that is basically immunity to conditions.

Your right. There are a lot of hexes in PvE so [avatar of dwayna] looks tempting with [mending touch]

. [save yourselves] is pretty useful on a dervish with melandru up.

Crimson Flame · Jul 14, 2008, 09:39 PM // 21:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by wetsparks

Just to defend myself for forgetting that one skill, I did look on wiki cuz I thought it had to do with another skill but it only lists spear of fury under kurzick/luxon skills. not save yourselves.
http://guildwars.wikia.com/wiki/Kurzick/Luxon_skill

["Save Yourselves!"] is the Warrior allegiance skill.

Dairith · Jul 15, 2008, 01:00 AM // 01:00

Speaking of the imba-ness of paragons, I'm surprised no ones mentioned Yellow Way. No imbagons there (ok, well there is SY!, but not the straight imbagon build) and it owns. Not to mention that it can be run by two players and six heroes...

Jesses Paradigm · Jul 15, 2008, 04:56 AM // 04:56

everyone raise there hand if they have a paragon.

*raises hand*

wetsparks · Jul 16, 2008, 02:08 AM // 02:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crimson Flame

["Save Yourselves!"] is the Warrior allegiance skill.

must have been having a stupid moment, or ten.

rebirthofdragon · Jul 18, 2008, 03:52 PM // 15:52

So then, really, the only thing that makes Paragons better than spear-chucking Warriors is TNTF. Appart from that, Warriors can deal more damage and keep SY! up just as effectively.

It seems to me that if TNTF! was not Leadership dependent, Paragons would be virtually obsolete in PvE.

Tyla · Jul 18, 2008, 03:53 PM // 15:53

Are you trolling or are you just clueless on the subject still?

The huge defense from the Paragon along with the damage comparable to a sword Warrior is incredibly painful. Warriors can't have a permanent 100% extra adrenaline buff and if they use adrenaline for SY, they waste time on other stuff that would be effective. If they use energy on an adrenaline skill, they get less SY. Energy attacks for Warriors also happen to be weak, apart from one or two exceptions.

Paragons, however, have alot of decent energy attacks and they also have infinite energy from the SY spam. Not to mention they are ranged attackers. Oh yes, and Paragons don't need severely overpowered PvE skills to be extremely imbalanced.

rebirthofdragon · Jul 18, 2008, 06:09 PM // 18:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

Are you trolling or are you just clueless on the subject still?

The huge defense from the Paragon along with the damage comparable to a sword Warrior is incredibly painful. Warriors can't have a permanent 100% extra adrenaline buff and if they use adrenaline for SY, they waste time on other stuff that would be effective. If they use energy on an adrenaline skill, they get less SY. Energy attacks for Warriors also happen to be weak, apart from one or two exceptions.

Paragons, however, have alot of decent energy attacks and they also have infinite energy from the SY spam. Not to mention they are ranged attackers. Oh yes, and Paragons don't need severely overpowered PvE skills to be extremely imbalanced.

Not counting TNTF!, it seems to me that a Warrior wielding a spear with high Strength and spamming spear attacks will do MORE damage than a Paragon, have more armor, and yet be able to keep up SY! at least 30/45 seconds (not accounting for [Cruel spear] + [Spear of Fury]).

Also, people keep saying "DPS like a sword Warrior," but what does that mean? Do you mean a Dragon Slash warrior or just a Warrior auto-attacking with a sword (the latter being far from impressive)?

Bowstring Badass · Jul 18, 2008, 06:13 PM // 18:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by rebirthofdragon

Not counting TNTF!, it seems to me that a Warrior wielding a spear with high Strength and spamming spear attacks will do MORE damage than a Paragon, have more armor, ?

I lol'd. Paras have the same armor as warrior. After [aggressive refrain] goes up paras have lower armor.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rebirthofdragon

Also, people keep saying "DPS like a sword Warrior," but what does that mean? Do you mean a Dragon Slash warrior or just a Warrior auto-attacking with a sword (the latter being far from impressive)?

If you take a sword warrior and a paragon and auto attack then they have around the same DPS. Dragon Slash war simply cant be beat on any dps from a melee class cept for maybe a moebius+db sin hitting a mob of 3+.

Cathode_Reborn · Jul 18, 2008, 10:32 PM // 22:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by rebirthofdragon

Not counting TNTF!, it seems to me that a Warrior wielding a spear with high Strength and spamming spear attacks will do MORE damage than a Paragon, have more armor, and yet be able to keep up SY! at least 30/45 seconds (not accounting for [Cruel spear] + [Spear of Fury]).

Where are you getting your numbers from? At 14 Strength with a hammer, the armor penetration from Str only adds 12+ damage. It's gonna be alot less in PvE when stuff with high armor reduces that damage. That, and the damage added will be less when using a Spear. Even bigger, you're losing the damage from auto-attacking. Remember that the AP from Str applies to Attack Skills only. A War with a spear is just a bootleg replacement.

I'm surprised no one's mentioned Blazing Spear, which can be spammed pretty often with Focused Anger. At 15 spear master, it's a 67+ dmg attack if you count the burning. Then you got Merciless spear that can be used to spam Deep Wound on everything. The fact that Paragons can stand in place and attack by range means less time running from target to target, which actually is also a DPS improvement in a way. I'm really not sure where you're getting the idea that Paragons "can't kill". Is your Spear mastery at 9 er somethin?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bowstring Badass

Dragon Slash war simply cant be beat on any dps from a melee class cept for maybe a moebius+db sin hitting a mob of 3+.

With or without a mob, Sin will win each time. They'll win even more when you start fighting lvl20+ stuff, and even more when they're hitting bunched up groups.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dairith

Speaking of the imba-ness of paragons, I'm surprised no ones mentioned Yellow Way. No imbagons there (ok, well there is SY!, but not the straight imbagon build) and it owns. Not to mention that it can be run by two players and six heroes...

That whole setup looks really sloppy and rushed. 8 phys, 0 hex/condition removal. The wars don't even have an IAS. If they're not using KD's, might as well be replaced by Paragons.

Tyla · Jul 18, 2008, 10:43 PM // 22:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by rebirthofdragon

Not counting TNTF!, it seems to me that a Warrior wielding a spear with high Strength and spamming spear attacks will do MORE damage than a Paragon, have more armor, and yet be able to keep up SY! at least 30/45 seconds (not accounting for [Cruel spear] + [Spear of Fury]).

And you have a Paragon, with SY as the only adrenal skill with AR being a one-time cast. Paragons also have the same armour. By the way, I believe 14 spear mastery > 12 spear mastery, aswell as the infinite energy.

Quote:

Also, people keep saying "DPS like a sword Warrior," but what does that mean? Do you mean a Dragon Slash warrior or just a Warrior auto-attacking with a sword (the latter being far from impressive)?

Ranged sword-like DPS > melee sword like DPS. Your position isn't determined by your enemy as a Paragon.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cathode

At 15 spear master, it's a 67+ dmg attack if you count the burning

I've reached about 70+ at 12 spear to be honest, with Blazing Spear ofcourse. How I know? I recently ran a D/P Blindbot for GvG.

Div · Jul 19, 2008, 01:26 AM // 01:26

Paragons autoattacking do more damage than flare spammers. That dispels all disbeliefs of paragons not doing damage, hopefully.

Monk Gsb · Jul 19, 2008, 02:09 AM // 02:09

people should realy use there brains moar and take [flail] instead of [aggressive refrain] then drop [anthem of flame] for somthing moar usefull like motivation party heals rawr i r gud ja ?

this is better cause in pve monsters dont kite, an imbagon dont need to kite from monsters cause of the massive armour, you have no [aggressive refrain] so no cracked so even moar armour, and party heals + a bit of dmg... aka. massive dps. you brokeded guildwars.

Bobby2 · Jul 19, 2008, 04:36 AM // 04:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Monk Gsb

/snip

The point of [aggressive refrain]: boost adren build
[flail] notsomuch

lrn2[save yourselves]

btw gogo tank attitude

Shaz · Jul 19, 2008, 04:55 AM // 04:55

Who said you need Anthem of Flame to run imbagon? You don't want to waste time with chants when running imbagon anyway, that cut into your adrenaline gain time, so no need for motivation chant, etc. Unless you have quite high kurzick/luxon rank. And Anthem of Flame is far from useless. AR is good, use it.