Curse

Time Nexus · Aug 22, 2008, 11:32 PM // 23:32

Excuse me, whats an Imbagon...?
Lol, sorry, I'm noob. >_<"

Snow Bunny · Aug 22, 2008, 11:35 PM // 23:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Time Nexus

Excuse me, whats an Imbagon...?
Lol, sorry, I'm noob. >_<"

A paragon using ["there's nothing to fear!"] and ["save yourselves!"]. They also normally have an Increased Attack Speed [IAS] skill and some damage skills.

Time Nexus · Aug 22, 2008, 11:39 PM // 23:39

What does "Imba" mean then?

Zahr Dalsk · Aug 22, 2008, 11:46 PM // 23:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Time Nexus

What does "Imba" mean then?

Imbalanced, because ~85% damage reduction is somewhat imbalanced.

Snow Bunny · Aug 22, 2008, 11:46 PM // 23:46

Imba, meaning 'imbalanced', because the two skills make damage very little. Read the paragon guide (yes, I wrote it, but it'll help you out) and it explains it more.

Time Nexus · Aug 22, 2008, 11:48 PM // 23:48

Thanks. (^^,)

Abnaxus · Aug 26, 2008, 02:52 PM // 14:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Racthoh

Consider your options. The first skill that comes to mind is "They're On Fire!", a conditional skill that reduces damage. Redundant to be frank; you already have "Save Yourselves!" and "There's Nothing To Fear!". Also because of the conditional nature of "They're On Fire!" you must incorporate a source of burning. Now you're using at least three skill slots of the party, the same as the 25% IAS 100% adrenaline gain imbagon version.

A deeper look at the list of all shouts and chants in the game reveals there are no skills with a similar use as "They're On Fire!" (instant cast, 100% uptime). Any options that meet the criteria of 100% uptime halt your throwing briefly, creating possibly gaps in the +100 AL. Ultimately you are put into the same position as the AR/FA/FGJ version of the imbagon, assigning three of the party's skill slots to powering defense.

Well, I'm not a "maestro" of the art of imbagon, but I think that there's a shout that meets the SF condition, and that is "Can't touch this!"

Therefore, the build I prefer is as follows:

[Soldier's Fury]["Can't Touch This!"]["There's Nothing To Fear!"]["Go for the Eyes!"][Spear of Fury]["Save Yourselves!"][Merciless Spear][Signet of Return]

Since I'm level 11 Kurzick, SY lasts 6s, and with 8s recharge for SoF it's more than enough to keep the shout up for most of the time.

The main advantage is that I can use TNtF immediately at the start of the battle, having spent only 5+5 energy for SF+CTT, resisting the early spike and then charging the rest of the skills.

BTW, I always have a curse necro hero who spams weakness and cracked armor, so the SoF requirement is always met.

Snow Bunny · Aug 26, 2008, 06:09 PM // 18:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abnaxus

Well, I'm not a "maestro" of the art of imbagon, but I think that there's a shout that meets the SF condition, and that is "Can't touch this!"

Therefore, the build I prefer is as follows:

[Soldier's Fury]["Can't Touch This!"]["There's Nothing To Fear!"]["Go for the Eyes!"][Spear of Fury]["Save Yourselves!"][Merciless Spear][Signet of Return]

You're burning your elite in the IAS while using a skill that's pretty much useless. You're also using adrenal skills that will detract from SY! mashing.

That's a pretty bad imbagon bar.

Richardt · Aug 26, 2008, 06:51 PM // 18:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abnaxus

[Soldier's Fury]["Can't Touch This!"]["There's Nothing To Fear!"]["Go for the Eyes!"][Spear of Fury]["Save Yourselves!"][Merciless Spear][Signet of Return]

Since I'm level 11 Kurzick, SY lasts 6s, and with 8s recharge for SoF it's more than enough to keep the shout up for most of the time.

I can do this at rank 7 without using [[spear of fury] with the "standard" bar.

Quote:

The main advantage is that I can use TNtF immediately at the start of the battle, having spent only 5+5 energy for SF+CTT, resisting the early spike and then charging the rest of the skills.

I don't know about the rest of you-but I'm able to do this with the "standard" bar. And yes that's with 30 energy. All I do is fire off FGJ and AR right when I enter, and by the time I start fighting I have energy to fire off TNtF.

And why do people insist on bringing GFtE on an imbagon bar? If you're going to be burning your adrenaline on another skill, there are better choices-like [[spear of redemption] to keep blind off of you (I've been known to pack [[holy spear] from time to time in Slaver's even). Now that's not to say GFtE is a bad skill, it's just better served being off the imbagon bar and on someone elses.

Lishy · Aug 26, 2008, 09:56 PM // 21:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Richardt

And why do people insist on bringing GFtE on an imbagon bar? If you're going to be burning your adrenaline on another skill, there are better choices-like [[spear of redemption] to keep blind off of you (I've been known to pack [[holy spear] from time to time in Slaver's even). Now that's not to say GFtE is a bad skill, it's just better served being off the imbagon bar and on someone elses.

E-management to keep up TNTF.
SY if an 8 adrenaline skill and without luck, is very hard to use for energy. Paragons are not solely adrenaline users and have skills like Focused Anger, Spear of Lightning, Spear of Fury, and of course, Aggressive Refrain, that just plain saps there energy.
At high ranks of Kurzick, GFTE is especially useful on imbagon skillbars because you can still keep up SY, increase dps of party(And minions), as well as the mentioned e-management. Some people deny its usefulness. I, for one, do not.

Tyla · Aug 26, 2008, 10:09 PM // 22:09

^
If you're running out of energy on an Imbagon you're probably bad. 4 hits with FA up, if you're running Orders, 2 hits.

As for increasing DPS, minions' crits are barely noticable, and it's alot stronger on another person, such as a Cruel Spear Paragon.

Bobby2 · Aug 26, 2008, 10:50 PM // 22:50

Oh, why the love for [[Soldier's Fury]? I mean back when [[Watch Yourself] was still worth a damn it was decent, but not more.

I understand the pitfall though...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kain Fz

and of course, Aggressive Refrain, that just plain saps there energy.

*shudders*

I mean, WHAT? Don't whine about that when you really only have to cast it once ffs...

Lishy · Aug 26, 2008, 11:57 PM // 23:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bobby2

Don't whine about that when you really only have to cast it once ffs...

Sometimes you can be in an area where you will come across enemies that use e-denial or vocal minority.
Without GFTE, TNTF would be your only skill that upkeeps it. And TNTF can be a little energy demanding at times.
Not saying that this is general PvE. However there are some people who just aren't perfect and sometimes slack and not upkeep AR.

Nothing less , GFTE is efficient at higher kurzick ranks and it cant by denied. Why not make use of the extra damage it offers? It'd definitely help the hit hard builds. Especially dervishes and hammer warriors :P

But I guess in the end, whether to take GFTE depends on your team and where you are. Paragons can have the best physical-support bar in the world, and not being able to do shit because they don't know their team's builds.

My Lipgloss is Cool · Aug 27, 2008, 01:15 AM // 01:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kain Fz

Sometimes you can be in an area where you will come across enemies that use e-denial or vocal minority.

So the shout GFtE would help compensate energy for not being able to shout?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kain Fz

Without GFTE, TNTF would be your only skill that upkeeps it. And TNTF can be a little energy demanding at times.

If you're in battle and spamming SY, as you should be, you should never, not have enough energy for TNtF. Even if you are being E-denied, SY should still provide enough energy for TNtF. If you're being anti-shouted (VM) or anti-adrened (Soothing Images) you should be having that removed, quickly. If it can't be removed quickly, you've built your team wrong. Also, switching to a sup leadership hat for AR makes it easier to keep it up, allowing for little gaps.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kain Fz

Not saying that this is general PvE. However there are some people who just aren't perfect and sometimes slack and not upkeep AR.

In the non-general cases, you can compensate other ways (Extra Hex Removal), and with the previously mentioned Sup leadership hat, AR is much easier to keep up, unless you're just not paying attention. And you can't blame for your mistakes, and you shouldn't have to change the build to compensate for such.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kain Fz

Nothing less , GFTE is efficient at higher kurzick ranks and it cant by denied. Why not make use of the extra damage it offers? It'd definitely help the hit hard builds. Especially dervishes and hammer warriors :P

In places where you can afford to keep up SY and spam GFtE, you don't need it. The extra damage is small and the energy is unneeded. In areas where you can't keep them up, all your adren should be going to SY.

Richardt · Aug 27, 2008, 04:46 AM // 04:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kain Fz

E-management to keep up TNTF.

I'm going to be blunt here-FAIL.

As Tyla already pointed out, if you're having energy management issues, you're doing something wrong. I'll admit when I started Imbagon, I had issues with energy management on him-hence why I ran with Radiants. But after doing it for a bit, I got the feel for it, and I can run it with 25 energy-which can happen in a H/H vanquish.

The point is that SY! should be all the energy you need, and wasting adrenaline on GFtE isn't needed. As I pointed out in another thread, you can run with another 3 or 4 adrenaline skill, but for Imbagon there are better choices than GFtE.

Now don't get me wrong-I love GFtE and think it's a great skill-just not on an Imbagon.

Racthoh · Aug 27, 2008, 04:53 AM // 04:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abnaxus

Well, I'm not a "maestro" of the art of imbagon, but I think that there's a shout that meets the SF condition, and that is "Can't touch this!"

"Can't Touch This!" is a terrible skill and I probably overlooked it based solely on that. "They're On Fire!" does something at the very least, even if the additional damage reduction is unnecessary, or we don't even have a source of burning. If the party had other paragons with Aggressive Refrain it would maintain it for them, or trigger the Finale skills if we have a motigon around. I'd rather use Frenzy and a cancel stance than Soldier's Fury with "Can't Touch This!" as it would free your elite slot for something better.

I'd rather use Soldier's Fury, "They're On Fire!" and Blazing Finale than waste a skill slot on "Can't Touch This!". At the very least the wasted slots are actually doing something productive both offensively and defensively for the entire party. But then again I really don't care as long as Aggressive Refrain says "kill stuff 25% faster forever".

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abnaxus

Since I'm level 11 Kurzick, SY lasts 6s, and with 8s recharge for SoF it's more than enough to keep the shout up for most of the time.

Players tend to put a lot of faith into their SYgon which results in a single point of failure. However because so much passive defense comes from that single paragon it allows the party to drop other passive defenses in favor of skills to prevent that point of failure. It's what makes the build so resilient. Relying on Spear of Fury to get "Save Yourselves!" back up the instant it goes down can prove to be costly. Blocks, misses, energy denial, whatever it may be. Chances are if Spear of Fury fails to hit then it could mean your auto-attacks have missed as well so your adrenaline pool will be rather short. That single point of failure becomes more of an issue; one attack that must hit every 8 seconds vs. 4 hits in X seconds (depending on kurzick/luxon rank).

You also don't get to use Ebon Battle Standard of Honor which makes me want to cry.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abnaxus

The main advantage is that I can use TNtF immediately at the start of the battle, having spent only 5+5 energy for SF+CTT, resisting the early spike and then charging the rest of the skills.

-I can use "There's Nothing To Fear!" at the start of every combat as well if it's recharged.
-Aggressive Refrain is a one time 25 energy cost, Soldier's Fury is 5 energy every 30~ seconds. After a few minutes you've spent more energy to attack faster, and spent a second each time to put it up. At least when I stop for a second to use Ebon Battle Standard of Honor I do so to greatly increase the party's damage.
-Early spike? Pre-prot before engaging, a strategy that has existed long before the paragon was introduced.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kain Fz

Without GFTE, TNTF would be your only skill that upkeeps it. And TNTF can be a little energy demanding at times.

12 leadership makes "There's Nothing To Fear!" 9 energy every 20 seconds. Paragon's natural 2 pips works out to 2 energy every 3 seconds; about 13 energy in 20 seconds. If you are faced with a situation where you cannot build adrenaline to shout then I would be using my attack skills sparingly in order to conserve energy. Since we wouldn't be pumping out "Save Yourselves!" I would be far more concerned with keeping the defense in tact; the damage reduction far outweighs the extra damage of Vicious/Lightning/Fury.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kain Fz

Not saying that this is general PvE. However there are some people who just aren't perfect and sometimes slack and not upkeep AR.

I wouldn't trust such a crucial role in the hands of someone who slacks on keeping Aggressive Refrain up.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kain Fz

Nothing less , GFTE is efficient at higher kurzick ranks and it cant by denied.

It grants a larger margin of error at higher ranks. It's a 2 second difference between rank 1 and 12; a whole one attack with a spear. I would not be using that small window to risk "Save Yourselves!" not being filled. If I've already made the rest of the party take additional measures for keeping me clean the last thing I'm going to do is negate their efforts by throwing another variable into the equation.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kain Fz

Why not make use of the extra damage it offers? It'd definitely help the hit hard builds. Especially dervishes and hammer warriors :P

The number of situations where critical hits are the deciding factor has me questioning the team build. If critical hits are the difference between beating a mob with ease and taking deaths I'd be looking for a stronger solution. When "Go For The Eyes!" didn't have a 4 second recharge then the argument would hold better.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kain Fz

Paragons can have the best physical-support bar in the world, and not being able to do shit because they don't know their team's builds.

Paragons are a physical and should be built to make things die, with a minimal amount of offensive and defensive support. The standard Imbagon bar has two attack skills, 14 spear, a ward that boosts everyone's offense significantly, an IAS, a party heal, and two skills negate the bulk of damage. 3 offensive skills (Vicious Attack, Swift Javelin/Spear of Lightning, Ebon Battle Standard of Honor), 2 defensive skills ("There's Nothing to Fear!", "Save Yourselves!") and 3 skills to enhance all of that (Aggressive Refrain, Focused Anger, "For Great Justice!"). The defensive support overwhelms the offensive bonuses, as great as Ebon Battle Standard of Honor is.

Casters will make far better supporters for physicals offensively because they can spend all their time making the physicals kill things faster. Order of Pain, Splinter Weapon, Great Dwarf Weapon, Barbs, Strength of Honor, etc etc... Can a paragon use those skills? Of course, but a wand's auto-attack won't be missed as much as a paragon's spear.

Cathode_Reborn · Aug 27, 2008, 09:11 AM // 09:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Racthoh

Relying on Spear of Fury to get "Save Yourselves!" back up the instant it goes down can prove to be costly. Blocks, misses, energy denial, whatever it may be. Chances are if Spear of Fury fails to hit then it could mean your auto-attacks have missed as well so your adrenaline pool will be rather short. That single point of failure becomes more of an issue; one attack that must hit every 8 seconds vs. 4 hits in X seconds (depending on kurzick/luxon rank).

The best thing about Spear of Fury is you'll always gain the adren as long as the target has a condition - You can miss, be blinded, or be blocked, and you'll still get it. It's not really a bad skill, there's just better things to use.

isamu kurosawa · Aug 27, 2008, 10:42 AM // 10:42

Soldiers is best used in a 2 paragon team running orders because you can keep up tntf permanantly, have a faster IAS and still keep up SY 100%.

In most cases refrain is still the best. Carry a sup leadership helm with you and switch out to cast refrain when you first load in an area. with that duration it can be maintained with tntf. If you are having trouble maintaining it then simply useanthem of flame/weariness.
Our paras have enough energy spamming SY alone to fuel a bar with both tntf, refrain and ebon battle standard with no problems. If you can't do it then get some practice (or get a team that doesn't split out of shout range).

Abnaxus · Aug 27, 2008, 12:14 PM // 12:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by isamu kurosawa

In most cases refrain is still the best. Carry a sup leadership helm with you and switch out to cast refrain when you first load in an area. with that duration it can be maintained with tntf. If you are having trouble maintaining it then simply use anthem of flame/weariness.

That's a very good answer, the problem which can occur at 12 Leadership is that you have in some cases 1 second margin to use TNtF if you want to keep AR on.

If you use Racthoh build you also have FGJ, but in case that the 21s duration of AR happens during the 45s between 2 endings of FGJ you MUST use with no mistake TNtF to reapply AR.

Now, we all now that Racthoh is the best paragon in GW and can play every build blindfolded, but I'm not, so I know I can (and very likely will) make mistakes.
That's why I try to create the conditions to minimize the effects of my mistakes.

In my opinion FGJ is a waste in that build, having already used an elite slot to double adrenaline I think it's possible to stand the 15s downtime and take Anthem of Flame which makes things easier with AR and adds some damage.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Racthoh

You also don't get to use Ebon Battle Standard of Honor which makes me want to cry.

Sorry for having given you such sorrow, but:

1. Paragon is not my main and therefore I'm low level in Vanguard (although now also at lower levels such skills are effective, so I will consider it, thanks)

2. more important, I don't go on pvxwiki and copy/paste builds, at most I try to get the general idea and put together something I'm able to play despite all my (huge) limitations.

Savio · Aug 27, 2008, 01:36 PM // 13:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cathode_Reborn

The best thing about Spear of Fury is you'll always gain the adren as long as the target has a condition - You can miss, be blinded, or be blocked, and you'll still get it.

You shouldn't be missing, be blinded, or be blocked enough for it to be a problem.

Quote:

Soldiers is best used in a 2 paragon team running orders because you can keep up tntf permanantly, have a faster IAS and still keep up SY 100%.

Or you bring a standard imbagon and use the extra party slot for something better.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abnaxus

That's a very good answer, the problem which can occur at 12 Leadership is that you have in some cases 1 second margin to use TNtF if you want to keep AR on.

Did you not see the part about bringing a superior leadership helm? At 16 leadership, AR lasts for 26 seconds.

Quote:

In my opinion FGJ is a waste in that build, having already used an elite slot to double adrenaline I think it's possible to stand the 15s downtime and take Anthem of Flame which makes things easier with AR and adds some damage.

FGJ is there to keep SY up while FA is down. One of the main points of the imbagon is maintaining SY, not just for the armor but for fueling the imbagon's energy.