Curse

Bobby2 · May 01, 2009, 06:53 AM // 06:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Axel Zinfandel

Cracked armor is not a big drawback of AR if that's a main concern.

Agreed. Just about every decent team build has [foul feast] and/or [mend body and soul], why people keep whining about CA is beyond me

Saraneth · May 01, 2009, 07:21 AM // 07:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Faye Aeris

...only direction to go wjile keepig allies in shout range is forward

Last time I checked, we could move sideways as well, but aoe range isn't usually so great that we have to move far in any direction.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Faye Aeris

Max damage: 224 (8x2x14)

If all eight of your party members are carrying physical attacks and somehow figure out how to stack burning on a single target, sure. On the other hand, if your allies aren't all attacking the same target, then yes, the dmg is substantial.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Faye Aeris

how bouts the paragon shuts down source of aoe before healers explode?

That would depend on the time it takes for you to reach the target and use [[Spear Swipe]. If during that time, SY falls because you aren't building adren/killing, then saving the healers before they "explode" isn't likely to occur. Nevertheless, it all depends on the type of enemies you're facing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Axel Zinfandel

"Stand your Ground" is still pointless with SY

Not when the paragon isn't covered by SY.

MercenaryKnight · May 01, 2009, 07:34 AM // 07:34

By the way anthem of flame followed up by spear of fury does not= increase adrenaline gain. The skill applies burning after it checks for condition and results in no additional adrenaline. You should switch it for the command anthem of weakness, because that one does apply the condition before adrenaline check.

M1EK · May 01, 2009, 07:47 AM // 07:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by CrimsonDaggers

Now, once TNtF is fulling charged and ready to roll, you press 6 and 7 (SF and TNtF) and Save Yourselve's should be ready to be played at this time with TNtF. That way, the armor bonus is not stacking with SYG because the armor bonus will cap at +25 with multiple skills. Then you rinse and repeat.

If you stack SYG with SY! you get +100 armor. You don't fully understand the mechanic.

CrimsonDaggers · May 01, 2009, 04:40 PM // 16:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by M1EK

If you stack SYG with SY! you get +100 armor. You don't fully understand the mechanic.

Check out this Wiki page about armor, and furthermore you will not see me make any accusations about you.

Quote:

By the way anthem of flame followed up by spear of fury does not= increase adrenaline gain. The skill applies burning after it checks for condition and results in no additional adrenaline. You should switch it for the command anthem of weakness, because that one does apply the condition before adrenaline check.

That may be true, but if I apply Anthem of Flames, attack once, then use Spear of Fury, the adrenaline is added then.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Axel Zinfandel

Yeah, ok, it might be good for higher ranks of allegiance, but I speak for many when I say I really don't want to grind that damn much lol.

Grind for what skill? Spear of Fury?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Axel Zinfandel

Still, the idea of 25% IAS and fully maintainable adrenal gain (FA going above the 100% cap) is a lot better then 33% IAS with 100% adrenal gain with a 25 second downtime.

Attack Speed > Adrenal Gain because you get both Damage and Adrenaline. So in retrospect, you get 33% IAS, with 133% Adrenal gain (FGJ + SF) and no downtime whatsoever because we are talking about smart players that are going to cover that downtime with another shout.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Axel Zinfandel

"Stand your Ground" is still pointless with SY, even if it's use is to cover the downtime of TiNtF, at least ["They're on Fire!"] would have a chance at being more useful.

"Stand your ground" is not pointless, it works beautifully, lasts longer than Watch Yourself and boosts more armor while sustaining SF. If the only thing that needs to be communicated is that the monks should not kite as much and to look for SYG, then that is about a 15 second conversation.

zelgadissan · May 01, 2009, 05:07 PM // 17:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by MercenaryKnight

By the way anthem of flame followed up by spear of fury does not= increase adrenaline gain. The skill applies burning after it checks for condition and results in no additional adrenaline. You should switch it for the command anthem of weakness, because that one does apply the condition before adrenaline check.

I just tested this on the Isle of the Nameless, you're wrong. Both anthems result in additional adrenaline. I do agree Anthem of Weariness > Anthem of Flame, but they both work.

As for the rest of the stuff - I'm not going into why Soldier's Fury is lesser than Focused Anger and Aggressive Refrain. It's already been said about 100 times here. That said, it's PvE, it works, if you're happy running it, enjoy.

CrimsonDaggers · May 01, 2009, 05:58 PM // 17:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by zelgadissan

I just tested this on the Isle of the Nameless, you're wrong. Both anthems result in additional adrenaline. I do agree Anthem of Weariness > Anthem of Flame, but they both work.

As for the rest of the stuff - I'm not going into why Soldier's Fury is lesser than Focused Anger and Aggressive Refrain. It's already been said about 100 times here. That said, it's PvE, it works, if you're happy running it, enjoy.

I agree, this is PvE, run what you like, but for debates sake, the math of why Soldier's Fury > FA + AR is irrefutable.

MercenaryKnight · May 01, 2009, 09:04 PM // 21:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by zelgadissan

I just tested this on the Isle of the Nameless, you're wrong. Both anthems result in additional adrenaline. I do agree Anthem of Weariness > Anthem of Flame, but they both work.

As for the rest of the stuff - I'm not going into why Soldier's Fury is lesser than Focused Anger and Aggressive Refrain. It's already been said about 100 times here. That said, it's PvE, it works, if you're happy running it, enjoy.

Guess somewhere along the lines they changed it, but it used to be stated on wiki's that anthem of flame would cause burning after the attack skill and anthem of weariness was bugged and worked before.

But yeah, I still think the basic imbagon build is better than this. I know everyone loved to try and make new builds, but if it's not broke and works perfectly then not much reason to change.

CrimsonDaggers · May 01, 2009, 09:21 PM // 21:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by MercenaryKnight

But yeah, I still think the basic imbagon build is better than this. I know everyone loved to try and make new builds, but if it's not broke and works perfectly then not much reason to change.

The fact of the matter is that math doesn't lie. Also, I know that people may not like this build because of the fact that a little more thinking needs to be done than just mashing buttons for Imbagon, lol

Axel Zinfandel · May 02, 2009, 12:12 AM // 00:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by CrimsonDaggers

Grind for what skill? Spear of Fury?

SY, I was replying to the comment about this being a good build when running high allegiance for a 6 second SY

Quote:

Originally Posted by CrimsonDaggers

Attack Speed > Adrenal Gain because you get both Damage and Adrenaline. So in retrospect, you get 33% IAS, with 133% Adrenal gain (FGJ + SF) and no downtime whatsoever because we are talking about smart players that are going to cover that downtime with another shout.

Adrenaline doesn't stack like that. you'll be getting 100% more not 133.

There IS a downtime because FGJ lasts 20 seconds with a 45 second recharge. that's 25 seconds that you will only be getting 33% increased adrenaline gain.

Yes, Attack speed is better then Adrenal gain, but wouldn't IAS AND Adrenal gain that is fully maintainable be better then slightly better IAS and adrenal gain that ISNT fully maintainable?

I have no clue where you are getting that ["For Great Justice!" (PvE)] is fully maintainable, because it ISNT.

Quote:

Originally Posted by CrimsonDaggers

"Stand your ground" is not pointless, it works beautifully, lasts longer than Watch Yourself and boosts more armor while sustaining SF. If the only thing that needs to be communicated is that the monks should not kite as much and to look for SYG, then that is about a 15 second conversation.

[/quote]

Pointless because you are a paragon. If you need the extra armor, you're doing something wrong. "SYG!"s armor bonus goes not stack with SY!, and is even canceled out BY SY when it is up. There shouldn't -be- much downtime TO SY, so my point is that you'd be better off running a shout that actually has the ability to benefit you're team.

expugnare · May 02, 2009, 02:29 AM // 02:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by CrimsonDaggers

That may be true, but if I apply Anthem of Flames, attack once, then use Spear of Fury, the adrenaline is added then.

Well, I don't mean to be negative, but remember, [Anthem of Flame] only applies on an attack skill, not on a regular attack. Also, this is the reason for the lack of effectiveness of [Anthem of Flame] across the board; yes, you might have a whole group with physical weapons, but the chance they are all carrying attack skills? Wholly unlikely.

Anyway, correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought I would clear that up.

M1EK · May 03, 2009, 01:10 AM // 01:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by CrimsonDaggers

Check out this Wiki page about armor, and furthermore you will not see me make any accusations about you.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wiki

The sum of all armor buffs gained from skills and effects cannot exceed +25. However, if one or more effects add more than +25 armor by themselves (for example +40 from Physical Resistance), then the largest of these effects counts as the total buff, even if it is larger than +25.

I repeat: If you stack SYG with SY! you get +100 armor. You don't fully understand the mechanic.

CrimsonDaggers · May 03, 2009, 06:01 AM // 06:01

I stand corrected, makes me like my build even more!

Axel Zinfandel · May 03, 2009, 06:13 AM // 06:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by M1EK

I repeat: If you stack SYG with SY! you get +100 armor. You don't fully understand the mechanic.

Did you just, after quoting that entire thing, state that SYG and SY! would stack?

M1EK · May 03, 2009, 06:46 AM // 06:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Axel Zinfandel

Did you just, after quoting that entire thing, state that SYG and SY! would stack?

No, I stated that using SYG on top of SY! (the process of stacking) would result in +100 armor.

haggus71 · May 03, 2009, 04:46 PM // 16:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by M1EK

No, I stated that using SYG on top of SY! (the process of stacking) would result in +100 armor for other party members.

For any confusion. With SYG, YOU will only gain +24. Which is why it's ridiculous to carry Spear swipe on you, as you WILL have the least armor, and everyone will glomp you. As for Soldier's Fury...easy to sort out. Someone GO TEST IT! Unbiased. Run each build and see which sustains better adrenaline, and which gives better damage. If the Soldier's Fury build gives decent party support with higher damage, it's a win. If the damage increase is negligible, better to stick with a spear-chucker build for damage, or an Imbagon for support.

Tyla · May 03, 2009, 04:50 PM // 16:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bobby2

Agreed. Just about every decent team build has [foul feast] and/or [mend body and soul], why people keep whining about CA is beyond me

And if you're REALLY concerned, you've got [[protective spirit] just around the block.

haggus71 · May 03, 2009, 05:28 PM // 17:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

And if you're REALLY concerned, you've got [[protective spirit] just around the block.

Hell, I don't have cracked armor long enough to notice it until a hero/hench removes it. Besides, instead of 96 base AL, you now have 76. Since you are mid-line anyway, it's not like it's a big deal.

CrimsonDaggers · May 03, 2009, 06:08 PM // 18:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by haggus71

Hell, I don't have cracked armor long enough to notice it until a hero/hench removes it. Besides, instead of 96 base AL, you now have 76. Since you are mid-line anyway, it's not like it's a big deal.

You are exactly right, but it's more of the thought that counts. Who would want to crack your own beautiful armor? It's like cutting yourself, just plain silly!

Regardless, I have been running different variations of this build to try to find an optimal one because some run out of energy if you just spam everything and some have too much energy. Regardless, I can usually spam SY! at least every 4-5 seconds with this build and I only need 4 seconds because my Kurzick title is low.

@Haggus - I have vanquished about 6 areas with this build and trying to find the best variation, and once I do I will take an honest look at Imbagon and will give my honest opinion. I am not afraid to be wrong, but I am hoping I am right that the 33% IAS is the deal breaker.

One theory that I have is that most HM battles only last about 20-40 seconds. So, I would venture to guess that Soldier's Fury wins the race for more SY! under 35-40 seconds, while Focused Anger would start to win the race thereafter. For ex: A patrol comes in to the battle you weren't expecting and makes the battle last longer.