Curse

Reverend Dr · May 14, 2009, 11:17 PM // 23:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by bhavv

Reverend, those builds that you posted are old pre - nerf builds that used to be used in HA and are the reasons why paragons got nerfed today.

Pre WHAT nerf? We used these about 4 months ago. The reason we don't use the same now is because of BUFFS. LC is powerful and P&H is just too powerful not to take. We still run paragons in HA. Paraspike is still around, even in 8-para versions.

They work just fine in the current build of the game. You are right people aren't going to want an infuse paragon, they don't want anything that isn't an HB monk; basing ideas on what pubs take is a great idea.

The point is that one paragon is going to be completely lackluster (imbagon aside). It takes adding several paragons before they can compete effectively; finding several paragons, much less several that will build around each other is rather difficult.

Bill Clinton · May 15, 2009, 12:05 AM // 00:05

I dont know if anyone has mentioned it yet in the thread. But paragons were given love this update. [defensive anthem] is now twenty times more viable now that [aegis] is gone.

Lishy · May 15, 2009, 01:17 AM // 01:17

lol.. No para buffs.
At least defensive anthem will dominate again...

Ney Matogrosso · May 16, 2009, 10:02 PM // 22:02

Is hard to know what the people want, in this topic buff paragon, because many people say that paragon is weak, worst and monk, ele and other are infinity better than para, but in this one (http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10374190) people say, nerf paragon. Concluding, paragons don't need buff or nerf only need criativity.
They can play well in pvp, just need to think.

Jaigoda · May 17, 2009, 04:37 AM // 04:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ney Matogrosso

Is hard to know what the people want, in this topic buff paragon, because many people say that paragon is weak, worst and monk, ele and other are infinity better than para, but in this one (http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10374190) people say, nerf paragon. Concluding, paragons don't need buff or nerf only need criativity.
They can play well in pvp, just need to think.

Wow, this was really difficult to read. And in that other thread, they're saying they'd be willing to nerf some of Paragon's inherent defense so it's possible to actually buff them without making them broken. And believe me, creativity only goes so far.. There are only a finite amount of skills, and a LOT of them aren't really usable at all in the vast majority of builds. And only people who don't understand what they're talking about think that Para's are inferior to ele's and monks. Paragons needs buffs and more options, period.

Reverend Dr · May 17, 2009, 05:00 AM // 05:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ney Matogrosso

but in this one (http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10374190) people say, nerf paragon.

You are not reading the same thread. The thread starts with the assumption that paragons are underpowered.

Anything talking about paragons being overpowered is speculation of what would happen should paragons receive blanket buffs without some redesign.

Improvavel · May 18, 2009, 01:37 AM // 01:37

Paragons have:
-Very high armor;
-Infinite resource engine in 6+ people parties;
-Powerful ranged weapon;
-Incredible IAS;
-Access to daze and deep wound;
-Positional advantage (high adrenaline costs means nothing to them - 7 adrenaline for a paragon is like 4 or less for a warrior).

The support skills, especially in PvP and excluding PvE-only ones, vary from ok to horrible when the paragon is on its own.

But even horrible skills on its own, you know those that do some mediocre thing when a shout or chant ends, are much less mediocre when they do 10 things in a second because there are shouts/chants of 4+ paragons ending constantly.

That's their problem for good and bad - alone they are lacklusters, except for the imbagon, but get a group of them and they can do stupid stuff, especially in PvE where skills aren't as badly crapped.

No player that only has access to its 2 paragon heroes can really comment on the strength of paras - it requires 3 and probably 4 or even more to see their power in action.

1 paragon doesn't heal as good as 1 monk, but you can have 4 paragons healing because opposed to monks they can still do damage while healing.

Additionally a paragon will take about 25% less damage than a monk - maybe more in PvE where most damage from Mobs come from auto-attacks/elemental damage.

Full paragon parties not only are good but they are fun.

They can use modifications, but as Bill Clinton said, Paras now have the best "Aegis" for PvP.

Anet I WANT THE 3rd PARA HERO NOT A STUPID DERVISH HERO!

Axel Zinfandel · May 18, 2009, 05:36 AM // 05:36

Paragons do not need buffs or nerfs, they need functionality changes.

IMO, Paragons are NOT overpowered, and are extremely underpowered. I almost guarentee that if they nerfed imbagon, paragons would become like rits are right now

Ney Matogrosso · May 18, 2009, 02:23 PM // 14:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Axel Zinfandel

Paragons do not need buffs or nerfs, they need functionality changes.

IMO, Paragons are NOT overpowered, and are extremely underpowered. I almost guarentee that if they nerfed imbagon, paragons would become like rits are right now

I agree with the bold words from Axel Zinfandel.
Improvavel: I need a 3rd paragon too, a 3rd Dervish is useless, ho play with more than one Dervish hero? If paly with one.

Ney Matogrosso · May 18, 2009, 02:29 PM // 14:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reverend Dr

You are not reading the same thread. The thread starts with the assumption that paragons are underpowered.

Anything talking about paragons being overpowered is speculation of what would happen should paragons receive blanket buffs without some redesign.

Lol

Your words in the topic above:
"The biggest problem is chant stacking.

If running one paragon becomes viable(a standard build, not imbagon), then running more will end up being overpowered."

upier · May 18, 2009, 07:01 PM // 19:01

The interesting part that (I think) nobody mentioned - the imba part of the imbagon is a warrior skill.

Reverend Dr · May 18, 2009, 09:47 PM // 21:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ney Matogrosso

Lol

Your words in the topic above:
"The biggest problem is chant stacking.

If running one paragon becomes viable(a standard build, not imbagon), then running more will end up being overpowered."

And that is speculation. I was addressing why blanket buffs to paragon skills (aka chants/shouts) would not be a good way to address paragon balance. I was merely pointing out the confounding probably before any argument.

Improvavel · May 19, 2009, 12:17 AM // 00:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

The interesting part that (I think) nobody mentioned - the imba part of the imbagon is a warrior skill.

Well [glyph of lesser energy] is an elementalist skill and [assassins promise] is an assassin skill, right?

But seriously, in imbagon you can see the power of the paragon resource engine combine with its high survivability. [Save yourselves] just happen to be a very powerful shout. The problem is there aren't many powerful shouts or chants and especially aren't very useful for a single paragon.

In PvE they face the fact that [Shadow Form], AoE damage like [Ray of Judgment] and [Cry of Pain] and stupid AI reactions and stats leads to a game where fighting through attrition is out of the question. They don't have AoE attacks and most of its effects are related to keep your team resources in a dragged fight, which in PvE don't exist (or most of the time don't).

In PvP attrition happens and paragons excelled at it - until they were nerfed, even though that in a split situation their resource engine suffers. On the other hand if they weren't, not only could they provide that support but assist in a spike and spear is a very solid weapon when you don't have to do AoE damage.

Don't ask me how to fix that cause I don't have a clue.

PvE would just need a redesign on mob AI, skill bars and group composition to encourage attrition fights where paragons excel.

PvP they just do too much damage while providing significant support, while being resilient. On the other hand, they are useless at splits so they lack in versatility.

FeroxC · May 19, 2009, 02:58 AM // 02:58

This is from a PVE players perspective.

Paragons skills swing between the extremes of "so general its useless" and "so conditional its useless".

In PVE if your not abusing imbagon other classes would probably do a better job. "Jack of all - master of none" comes to mind.

What they need is some skills with some real impact that dont stack to the point of imbalance. None of this "cant touch this", "chorus of restoration,"crippling anthem" rubbish.

They are nice but they arn't going to have much impact on the tide of battle and are therefore worthless.

Jaigoda · May 20, 2009, 04:35 AM // 04:35

Here's the thing. In PvP, there's one huge reason why they and also Rits, can never be truly balanced: They are build too much around unremovable buffs. This means that if something is actually useful, it's extremely easily abused, and there's no way to get it off short of gimmick stuff. If it's not useful like they've had to make so many of Para's skills, then there's no point in bringing it anyway. There is no balance in between.

Of course in PvE, like any other profession, they only need a few PvE-only buffs and they can turn into a completely viable profession. Just look at Assassins: Before they were all but laughed and a mocked by the majority of players, and now they're quite possibly the best profession in PvE, simply due to Shadow Form and PvE skills (and a very small handful of buffs). The Motivation line has a lot of potential, as others have mentioned.

Oh, and to the above poster: Right now they're more like "(generally) can't do jack, master of one (skill)." And they're only worthless if they aren't running Imbagon.

upier · May 20, 2009, 07:07 AM // 07:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Improvavel

Well [glyph of lesser energy] is an elementalist skill and [assassins promise] is an assassin skill, right?

The problem is that unless a paragon runs a skill from the secondary class - he's pretty much outclassed.
Not the best thing one can say about how the class is balanced.

Celtus · Jun 13, 2009, 07:00 PM // 19:00

anet didnt forget they made paragons. they made professions which are more effective in bigger groups (paragon, also ritualist), then they decided they dont like professions that are especially effective in bigger groups so they nerfed both to oblivion and will probably continue doing so every month