Curse

Ney Matogrosso · May 13, 2009, 07:45 PM // 19:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Improvavel

Pitty a monk can't add the damage of a paragon while providing the same support...

And in terms of condition removal - [cautery signet] and [its just a flesh wound]? Hex removal they can use [expel hexes] and [empathic removal] + non elite skills and their own chants.

Well, if u use [cautery signet] + [frigid armor] = no fire and all conditions removed. Even a PnH monk cannot do better than this in a place of full conditions. Another strategy to remove Condition and Hex could be P-ME [cautery signet] + [Breath of the Great Dwarf] + [Hex Eater Signet] and tah dah, no more condition and few Hexes to boring.
One build to test could be this: [build=OQWkMglrJimUQGQ2MoFGQINWr4IE]
or This: [build=OQWkMglrJimkC2MoFGQINWr4Ik7G]
See, there are many options...

bhavv · May 13, 2009, 08:12 PM // 20:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ney Matogrosso

Well, I really don't know why are you abandon your para to be a mule.
1-) Imbagon help all party members and in many cases is not invencible.
2-) Paragons can help monks in the support, reducing damage, helping healer, given energy.
3-) Can increase the damage of the party.
4-) There are more than one possibility to builds (not only imbagon), people must use your creativity and must be less prejudice to accept then in the partys.

SY and TNTF are not the problem, because paragons need a party to work, and the aim of the game is the group battle, if paragons could solo using SYand TNTF, I aggred that this skill must be nerfed, but in group, helping others? Don't.
Paragon is a mide-line attack/support class, they are a class to help increase damage deal, reduce damage received by the group. To Help! Think this. An army work in group, an only soldier can do few.
I agree that in pvp, Para has a few possibilitys but in a great group with 8 players if they work toggeter, a para can do much for the party.
Idon't agree that ANET forgot Para, but I think that the creativity of the players are forgot first.

1) so can monks, rits, elly and necro healers (heal party, aegis, PWK, life, LoD, Divine Favor party wide heals). These are also unconditional and have shorter recharges.

2) or you can just add a second monk / rit / elly / necro with heal or prot skills.

3) limited to physical damage only, and orders are still better.

4) The Imbagon is the only build which is on par to what other classes can do. You can play a spear chucker, but a ranger does more damage. You can play a motivation healer, but a monk is still better.

- The morale is, remove PVE skills, and no, paragons do not have the same versatily or balance as many of the other classes do. Can you solo farm with a paragon? Like FoW / UW? Maybe, but I dont see anyone doing it.

This thread is not intending to bash paragons, it is pointing out the weaknesses that they have over other classes, just as much as sins, mesmers and rits, all of which are being left as second priority to the other classes.

bhavv · May 13, 2009, 08:26 PM // 20:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ney Matogrosso

Well, if u use [cautery signet] + [frigid armor] = no fire and all conditions removed. Even a PnH monk cannot do better than this in a place of full conditions. Another strategy to remove Condition and Hex could be P-ME [cautery signet] + [Breath of the Great Dwarf] + [Hex Eater Signet] and tah dah, no more condition and few Hexes to boring.
One build to test could be this: [build=OQWkMglrJimUQGQ2MoFGQINWr4IE]
or This: [build=OQWkMglrJimkC2MoFGQINWr4Ik7G]
See, there are many options...

You still need to use 3 PVE only skills to be just as good as other classes without any PVE only skills.

Life Sheath or Foul Feast > Flesh Wound.

Cautery signet can only be used every 15 seconds, making it useless where it should apply the most - where conditions are spread quickly and continuosly across the party.

A monk can also use Martyr and purge conditions BTW, same thing, just as good.

PnH is better for hex removal, plus you are needing to dig into monk and mesmer spells there to make your paragon able to remove hexes effectively.

If you try and take the effort to consider balance across every class by ignoring PVE skills and secondary classes, you will find that this is the reason why many people are complaining about the paragon.

I really have no reason to play my paragon instead of either my elly or monk. It just isnt anywhere near as versatile or fun to play.

furanshisuko · May 13, 2009, 09:14 PM // 21:14

A-net... please buff paragons

Sifow Chan · May 13, 2009, 11:24 PM // 23:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by furanshisuko

A-net... please buff paragons

^This, BUT they need to make sure the buffs benefit the paras and not para secondaries...

Jaigoda · May 14, 2009, 02:40 AM // 02:40

Bhavv, you make no sense. And Assassins, Dervs, Mesmers, and Paras are all very useful in PvE (you're right though, rits and to a lesser extent rangers, just don't get no love). 'Sins have permaform (best tank build in the game) Locust's Fury (DPS/"SY!" machine), Assassin's Promise (nonstop spikes are gud in PvE), and Moebius Blossom (some of the most DPS on a melee; potential for "SY!"). Dervs have avvy's, Zealous Renewal, lots of stuff. Mesmers have Cry of Pain, and AP/EVAS, 'nuff said. And Paras, while quite one-dimensional, are freaking awesome solely because of the Imbagon. Honestly, I think that warriors are the worst of the melee profs. Yeah, you've got Dragon Slash/"SY!" but pretty much every other build is completely outstripped by 'Sins and Dervs. And even DS doesn't have AoE damage, so it's basically a 20-second "SY!" with mediocre single-target DPS. And yes, this is with inclusion of PvE skills, but excluding them would be like saying you can't use core or proph skills. They're a part of PvE, and there's no reason NOT to use them.

Ney Matogrosso · May 14, 2009, 03:50 AM // 03:50

Well you can be here talk, talk and talk (or cry, cry and cry) but to me paragons don't need buff, play very well with hero and hench, in pvp only need to think new builds and organized partys to work. With you preffer a monk or an elly, ok, if you believe that an extra help does not make difference, ok, good for you, but to me, paragons is an excellent class and can play and clean almost all the areas with hero and hench in HM, can't be a nerfed class, you must be kidding. This sound like mimimi of people that need pre-made thinks to do everything, don't buff paragon, but buff Rt, this is really an excellent class forgot for the ANET. Bazinga

Lishy · May 14, 2009, 04:10 AM // 04:10

Jaigoda, a Warrior would be able to totally replace a Paragon if not for the lack of Focused Anger.
You haven't seen those [Stunning Strike] Ub3r Daze spam builds on a Warrior, right? I'll post one later if I can.

Also, I would have to disagree on your view-point of Warriors. I see them quite the opposite of what you say. In fact, they have some of the largest amount of efficient builds and gimmicks in the game.

Warriors have [earth shaker] which is totally action-denial of numerous enemies in a mob. This is EXTREMELY powerful in areas where enemies clump up, yet are susceptible to KD. I've saw a Warrior run it in DoA's city, and it was absolute madness on how overpowered it was.

Don't forget the [Warrior's Endurance] builds that open up huge possibilities, and, of course, the StrScythe, which is very affective against high-end elite enemies due to Armor Penetration of Strength.

[Hundred Blades] may look like "lulz" at first, but it's one of the most fun skills in the game. Simply abuse Mark of Pain, as well as various other skills that trigger on physical damage, and watch the insanity of the skill. It increases damage VERY much if you combine it with [whirlwind attack]

[Triple Chop] may be an old build, but it is still efficient. Especially with the addition of [whirlwind attack] and it is a GREAT alternative to [Hundred Blades] when you feel like breaking out that chaos axe.

And when you're bored, you kick out the [Warrior's Endurance] builds again and start with the insanely powerful [Power Attack] spam and maybe even try out dagger builds, if you're feeling dangerous! [Golden Fox Strike] [Golden Fang Strike]/[Wild Strike] [Death Blossom]

Now. We all must ask:
What do paragons have in comparison to Warriors variety in builds?
[There's nothing to fear] [save yourselves]
Yeaaaaaaah....

Jaigoda · May 14, 2009, 04:25 AM // 04:25

Variety =/= good. SY+TNTF is the reason why the build is called the Imbagon.

And the warrior thing is only an opinion. I don't see all that much use of KD's when you can just have +100AL on everybody. WE works alright, but honestly I think MS>DB kind of out-DPS's it. And yeah, I've always had a special place in my heart for HB, but experimenting with Locust's Fury has led me to believe that it's superior to HB. And Triple Chop doesn't even compare, period. I mean, you can do some cool stuff with warriors, but I think they've just been pushed out by all of the massive-DPS builds that are going around for other profs.

Improvavel · May 14, 2009, 04:25 AM // 04:25

Curiously the best build for a warrior in PvE in a human team is [earth shaker].

Axel Zinfandel · May 14, 2009, 05:38 AM // 05:38

I think Anet's first mistake was giving a paragon 80 armor base.

I don't think ANYONE would complain if they brought it down to 70. Flame me all you want, and I know its a nerf, but if Anet is going to rework paragons to make their skills more widely usable then they are first going to have to nerf the basics of the class, because a backline character with 80 armor with skills buffed like how we all have in mind is not 'fixing' the class, it's just buffing them.

Fixing the motivation line would be simple and awesome in PvE, and requires little changes:

-Reduced recharge times for the Aria's and Ballads and [Song of Restoration]
-Fix [Lyric of Purification] and [Lyric of Zeal]. Players in PvE rarely use signets.
-OPTIONAL: make [The power is yours] more useful as a battery skill.

Command would be more useful if they simply made a lot of the skills more widely usable. Quite seriously the only skills that ever see popular play in the Command attribute is [Anthem of Weariness], [Go for the eyes], and sometimes [Stand your ground]. A say they change functionality of a lot of the skills that involve IMS, as it isn't used mid battle in PvE, and improve some of the other skills a little.

Paragons currently are mostly torn simply because they just use Leadership/Spear mastery, and are forced to put points just to use a shield.

bhavv · May 14, 2009, 06:07 AM // 06:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jaigoda

Bhavv, you make no sense. And Assassins, Dervs, Mesmers, and Paras are all very useful in PvE (you're right though, rits and to a lesser extent rangers, just don't get no love). 'Sins have permaform (best tank build in the game) Locust's Fury (DPS/"SY!" machine), Assassin's Promise (nonstop spikes are gud in PvE), and Moebius Blossom (some of the most DPS on a melee; potential for "SY!"). Dervs have avvy's, Zealous Renewal, lots of stuff. Mesmers have Cry of Pain, and AP/EVAS, 'nuff said. And Paras, while quite one-dimensional, are freaking awesome solely because of the Imbagon. Honestly, I think that warriors are the worst of the melee profs. Yeah, you've got Dragon Slash/"SY!" but pretty much every other build is completely outstripped by 'Sins and Dervs. And even DS doesn't have AoE damage, so it's basically a 20-second "SY!" with mediocre single-target DPS. And yes, this is with inclusion of PvE skills, but excluding them would be like saying you can't use core or proph skills. They're a part of PvE, and there's no reason NOT to use them.

Actually, I make plenty more sense then you do, and the only thing that you have explained in your post is that other then Imbagon, there is not much other use for paragons in PVE.

P.S. Warriors also have a weapon called a hammer that does this [earth shaker] and this [yeti smash]. Ive been using them on my heroes for quite a long time now and it is far more usefull then paragon heroes can be.

They can also solo farm much more of the game then Paragons can, oh, and strength warriors with spears and [flail] are actually far more effective then paragons are with their own weapon.

My reasons for why the paragon class is currently broken and needs a major update so far outweigh your defence that they are fine because of Imbagon.

Most people kind of get bored of playing the same thing over and over again, and the whole reason they want a buff is because other than the Imbagon build, paragons cant really do much else in PVE that compares to the other classes.

Assasins and Mesmers are more powerful then Paragons in PVE if you exclude the PVE skills, and that right there is showing how broken the class is.

Edit - I didnt see Kain's post above, but he explained how much better warriors actually are then people tend to think.

By the way, ["watch yourself"] pretty much does everything that maybe half of the paragons normal non elite / pve skills are equal to doing.

Reverend Dr · May 14, 2009, 06:19 AM // 06:19

To the challenges presented as "X paragons cannot keep up with 1 of some class"

[build prof=P/Mo name="Para-Infuse" hea=3 spe=9 mot=12 lea=9][Infuse Health][disrupting throw][Signet of Synergy][Finale of Restoration][Chorus of Restoration][the power is yours][Ballad of Restoration][purifying finale][/build]
[build prof=P/Mo name="Para-SoR" spe=9 mot=12 lea=9][disrupting throw][Signet of Synergy][Finale of Restoration][Chorus of Restoration][Mending Refrain][Song of Restoration][Ballad of Restoration][energizing chorus][/build]
[build prof=P/r name="Para-Flesh" spe=8 comma=11 lea=11 mot=2][Spear Swipe][make haste][stand your ground][its just a flesh wound][fall back][anthem of envy][go for the eyes][Signet of Return][/build]
[build prof=P/mo name="Para-Inc"][Spear Swipe][incoming][go for the eyes][anthem of flame][blazing finale][they're on fire][infuse health][Signet of Return][/build]

This is an old HA backline we've used. A little bit outdated since the lingering curse update, but the one I can copy/paste quickly. This outheals most builds in HA, including the ones with a HB, divine healings on the P&H, and PwK in the midline.

Paragons have two main problems. First outside of 8v8 they lose so much support and energy management; this alone is going to forever keep them out of GvG. The second problem is that shouts/chants get better with more shouts/chants, meaning that a single paragon is usually lackluster, but add more and the difference becomes more noticeable; this makes balancing them difficult as if 1 is viable then more will be overpowered.

Sifow Chan · May 14, 2009, 06:27 AM // 06:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ney Matogrosso

Well you can be here talk, talk and talk (or cry, cry and cry) but to me paragons don't need buff, play very well with hero and hench, in pvp only need to think new builds and organized partys to work. With you preffer a monk or an elly, ok, if you believe that an extra help does not make difference, ok, good for you, but to me, paragons is an excellent class and can play and clean almost all the areas with hero and hench in HM, can't be a nerfed class, you must be kidding. This sound like mimimi of people that need pre-made thinks to do everything, don't buff paragon, but buff Rt, this is really an excellent class forgot for the ANET. Bazinga

^Knows nothing. Paragons can clear PvE just like any class. PvE itself is not difficult if you have a decent party. However Para's are lacking in PvP and if you can't see it, you don't play PvP enough. I can only think of a few Para builds Para's can stand up against others Professions with in PvP, and I made them personally for my Paragon. Paragon skills can't compare to other profession skills. Just compare simple skills like Wild Throw/Wild Blow/Wild Strike. There are many more examples I can give. The fact is, Paragons are pretty much the lowest on the Profession list. The only other profession that can compare with Para's at being pretty bad are Rits.

bhavv · May 14, 2009, 06:35 AM // 06:35

Reverend, those builds that you posted are old pre - nerf builds that used to be used in HA and are the reasons why paragons got nerfed today.

No one in PVE is ever going to want an infuse paragon on their team.

It is a fun gimmick to try, but then again, so is my E/A dagger build with two [earth shaker] warriors and a [strength of honor] smite bonder.

Just because something is enjoyable to play doesnt necessarilly make it balanced.

I could have, if I ever wanted to, defend [flare] everytime it is critisized because I could if I wanted to, make a team of 8 flare elementalists that could beat the whole game. That doesnt automatically make [flare] a good skill just because it can work.

Paragons are flawed, because of how much they have been nerfed due to abuse in HA to the point where they are weaker than other classes in PVE. there is no reason why their skills shouldnt get improved for PVE.

Jaigoda · May 14, 2009, 06:36 AM // 06:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by bhavv

Actually, I make plenty more sense then you do, and the only thing that you have explained in your post is that other then Imbagon, there is not much other use for paragons in PVE.

P.S. Warriors also have a weapon called a hammer that does this [earth shaker] and this [yeti smash]. Ive been using them on my heroes for quite a long time now and it is far more usefull then paragon heroes can be.

They can also solo farm much more of the game then Paragons can, oh, and strength warriors with spears and [flail] are actually far more effective then paragons are with their own weapon.

I never said paragons had more than Imbagon, or that they are good farmers. I simply said that they have one of THE best builds in the game, which somewhat makes up for their lack of other builds.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bhavv

My reasons for why the paragon class is currently broken and needs a major update so far outweigh your defence that they are fine because of Imbagon.

Most people kind of get bored of playing the same thing over and over again, and the whole reason they want a buff is because other than the Imbagon build, paragons cant really do much else in PVE that compares to the other classes.

I never said that Paragons didn't need an update! I was only responding to your claims that professions outside of your supposed core 5 were useless. I was saying that Paragons are useful if only because of Imbagon. It would obviously be nice to have other builds to use, and I fully support that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bhavv

Assasins and Mesmers are more powerful then Paragons in PVE if you exclude the PVE skills, and that right there is showing how broken the class is.

Jesus christ, here you go on about excluding PvE skills again. PvE skills are part of the game, excluding them is just plain stupid. Here's another example. If you excluded, say, PnH from PvP play, then you could say that Mesmers and Necros would be unstoppable without the crazy hex removal tha PnH gives. But the fact is, it's in the game, and trying to pretend it's not there is just plain retarded.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bhavv

By the way, ["watch yourself"] pretty much does everything that maybe half of the paragons normal non elite / pve skills are equal to doing.

Uh huh. WY prevents, what, like 20% of damage? SY stops more than 80% of ALL non-armor-ignoring damage, doesn't end on a set amount of hits, and has no attribute requirement. How in hell do the two even compare!?

Just stop with all this crap that only half of the GW profs are actually useful. Oh, and way to twist around everything I said. Next thing you know you'll be accusing me of saying that monks should be removed from PvP play or something.

bhavv · May 14, 2009, 06:53 AM // 06:53

Jaigoda, you misinterperate my personal opinions.

I am a solo GW player, hence I hardly ever use any more than 3 PVE skills on my own bar, more often then not I play without a single one.

I am also fully opposed to the idea of Anet having implemeted PVE only skills in the first place as a lame attempt to balance the weaker classes.

My argument is that for the sake of balance and equal enjoyment from all the classes, they should all be equally as good with their normal skills without having to use the PVE only skills to become as usefull as the Elly / Necro / Monk / Warrior are.

I have never liked the PVE only skills and do not consider them when thinking of class balance in this game.

I wasnt comparing WY to SY, I meant to compare WY to the paragons normal 'non PVE only' and 'non elite' skill line.

You are fully misinterperating and misquoting what I am meaning to discuss because you are so obsessed with Imbagon and TNTF + SY.

If you are going to discuss skill balance with me, you need to get over and fully ignore PVE only skills before you can get it right.

I have also never discussed nor intended to call the weaker classes 'useless', please quote where I said this if I did.

I simply stated that they are not as good or versatile as the Elly / Monk / Necro and Warrior. I actually do believe every class do be incredibly powerful in PVE, yet there is not an equal balance or equal usefullness across all of the classes, which is what makes some worse then others.

The point of this thread is that Anet keep on buffing the crap out of Ellys and Monks while ignoring the classes that need it more - I would still have been perfectly happy without smiters boon and the RoJ buff making smiting incredibly powerful for PVE, or without the excessive buffs to the energy storage skills and would have prefered these efforts to have been spent on improving Paragons and Rits instead.

ZenRgy · May 14, 2009, 07:09 AM // 07:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ney Matogrosso

Well, if u use [cautery signet] + [frigid armor] = no fire and all conditions removed. Even a PnH monk cannot do better than this in a place of full conditions. Another strategy to remove Condition and Hex could be P-ME [cautery signet] + [Breath of the Great Dwarf] + [Hex Eater Signet] and tah dah, no more condition and few Hexes to boring.
One build to test could be this: [build=OQWkMglrJimUQGQ2MoFGQINWr4IE]
or This: [build=OQWkMglrJimkC2MoFGQINWr4Ik7G]
See, there are many options...

Using 3 slots on a paragon bar to remind conditions is terrible. Foul Feast / PnH works better.

smilingscar · May 14, 2009, 02:16 PM // 14:16

I would give up my 80 Al and let half (if not all) the spear attacks remove a shout when used if it meant I could have better skills. Heck, I'd even agree to them dropping the damage of spears to, say, 14-24. Good skills would be worth it.

Jaigoda · May 14, 2009, 03:31 PM // 15:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by bhavv

Jaigoda, you misinterperate my personal opinions.

I am a solo GW player, hence I hardly ever use any more than 3 PVE skills on my own bar, more often then not I play without a single one.

I am also fully opposed to the idea of Anet having implemeted PVE only skills in the first place as a lame attempt to balance the weaker classes.

Well, you need to get over it. PvE skills ARE a huge part of the current meta, and that's the honest truth. If you don't like them, tough luck and go hide in your little corner.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bhavv

My argument is that for the sake of balance and equal enjoyment from all the classes, they should all be equally as good with their normal skills without having to use the PVE only skills to become as usefull as the Elly / Necro / Monk / Warrior are.

While this is a valiant idea, it's just going to be a hell of a lot of work for Anet (something they haven't seemed to want to do) simply because they have to keep balance in PvP, so a good majority of their updates would need to split skills (something they've said they don't like to do). And keep in mind, every class right now has at least one use, and that IS with including PvE skills. Every class can be useful in a regular group, and the only profs that really miss out on farming groups are warriors and paras (though admittedly warriors can solo farm somewhat well). Every prof besides paragons (simply because they are group-focused characters, no way around it) can solo farm as well. And EVERY profession can run to at least some degree of success.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bhavv

I have never liked the PVE only skills and do not consider them when thinking of class balance in this game.

Good for you. So can I say that I never liked dervishes in PvP, so I can just exclude them from class balance because, I don't know, I'm too lame to get over it? I don't know how many time's I'll need to say this: They are part of the game! If you don't like them, that's too bad, because they're here to stay unless Anet turns PvE upside down.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bhavv

I wasnt comparing WY to SY, I meant to compare WY to the paragons normal 'non PVE only' and 'non elite' skill line.

Sorry, must have misread that there. And that's sort of why paragons don't use those skills. I could also say that Agressive Refrain, short of maybe Drunken Master and Critical Agility, is the best IAS in the game.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bhavv

You are fully misinterperating and misquoting what I am meaning to discuss because you are so obsessed with Imbagon and TNTF + SY.

I'm not obessed with anything, except maybe the game itself. I just don't like you critisizing all of the non-core profs (plus Mesmers) because they need to rely on PvE skills to be powerful.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bhavv

If you are going to discuss skill balance with me, you need to get over and fully ignore PVE only skills before you can get it right.

No.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bhavv

I have also never discussed nor intended to call the weaker classes 'useless', please quote where I said this if I did.

That's because if a profession supposedly can't compete with another prof, then it should probably be considered useless. And that's all I can see you saying; that 'Sins, Dervs, Paras Rits and Mesmers are inferior to the other five.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bhavv

I simply stated that they are not as good or versatile as the Elly / Monk / Necro and Warrior.

Ups, you just proved my point on the next line. GG's.

Also, you give me a full warrior build, and I'll make one that an Assassin, Dervish, or Paragon does better (feel free to include PvE skills, because I will be when I make my build).

Quote:

Originally Posted by bhavv

I actually do believe every class do be incredibly powerful in PVE, yet there is not an equal balance or equal usefullness across all of the classes, which is what makes some worse then others.

Actually, I'd rather have a paragon or assassin over a warrior any day of the week. Of course, some chars can do more things than others, but that doesn't make them any more useful than the next. It just means they have more builds to choose from, that's all.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bhavv

The point of this thread is that Anet keep on buffing the crap out of Ellys and Monks while ignoring the classes that need it more - I would still have been perfectly happy without smiters boon and the RoJ buff making smiting incredibly powerful for PVE, or without the excessive buffs to the energy storage skills and would have prefered these efforts to have been spent on improving Paragons and Rits instead.

We can't really decide what Anet wants to do. Fact is, they buffed Eles and Monks, yet I still don't see them very superior to the other classes. Yeah, some can use PvE skills better than others, and also some can use certain elites better than others. Should I say that it's unfair that other professions can't use Moebius Strike nearly as well as assassins? No, I don't think I should, because it's just as terrible an argument as the one you have presented.