Curse

Racthoh · Aug 14, 2009, 11:33 AM // 11:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ccat

While I am perpetually told that Hexes are reapplied anyway in PvE, there are other worries. Spiteful Spirit was only an example of armor ignoring damage, but then there's skills like Ineptitude, Icy veins and touch skills.

Various hexes do various things. The only hexes I tend to worry about are ones that impede my ability to fire off "Save Yourselves!". The only real hex to worry about is Soothing Images but the sheer rarity combined with the other enemies you'll face while dealing with it dismiss most fears I have. Things like Shadow of Fear and Faintheartedness are countered with Dark Fury and a cool head.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ccat

Then there's people holding the skill at god stature. I'm not trying to make the skill look terrible, just point out that the 82.3% reduction is a false claim. Teams like Racway labeled 'great' rely totally on the skill, but in reality it won't protect against huge spikes from The Drought or whatever.

I'm aware of the skill's shortcomings and will always take excessive defensive measures when possible. I will take Sologon in Nightfall, Herta for her Ward Against Melee, Morgahn will pack Anthem of Weariness, Kahmu previously provided excellent support healing, anything and everything because defense is so easy to overload on without truly gimping yourself.

As an aside the builds I used were never really meant for PvX, I had just been asked what hero combination I used when using my Paragon so figured I'd post it up here on Guru. It works for some, not for others, so yeah it's clearly not as good as other makeups. There is a reason the very first line of that post doesn't say "every" vanquish, only "just about".

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ccat

But then this is only one campaign. "There's Nothing to Fear!" only reduces damage by 35% (Nowhere near whay SY! claims it does) and doesn't last forever. I have a 10 second downtime on it.

Tyria was just an example, and even still Aegis on the Protection Henchmen will do plenty to reduce adrenaline gain and halt attack skills as well. We still take monks for a reason, naturally some damage is going to get through that has to be dealt with. Even the best Monk who pre-prots everything is still going to need some way to red bar the team eventually. It's not like these enemies are all using Dragon Slash with "For Great Justice!", capable of outputting armor ignoring damage with every single attack. They have to build adrenaline and deal with recharge times just like we do.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ccat

I was more talking about Aegis combined with Guardian will technically give a 75% block chance, Displacement on top of it making health bars high especially for the spirit.

Fair enough.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ccat

That can add up to alot of pressure on the healers though can't it?

If I'm clean they only have to worry about armor ignoring damage and the other 18% that's slipping through "Save Yourselves!". I'm also reducing overall damage by 17.5% since "There's Nothing To Fear!" has a 50% uptime and healing 480 health every 20 seconds as well. This is of course just what I'm doing to mitigate damage, nevermind the hammer Warrior knocklocking a target, the Necromancer throwing out Weakness. Defense is very easy to overload on.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ccat

Like I've said before casters don't have to worry about so many conditions, and before that hexes are applied instantly in PvE anyway (supposedly). It sounds like a lot of micromanagement for a skill that won't be as effective as say, PS combined with other prots.

Personally for me Paragon was the third character I made, having done everything before hand twice on Monk and Warrior. I had already vanquished everything once on Warrior so come the second time around I was fully aware of what gave me troubles and could build against everything appropriately. Although completing the Legendary Guardian title made me realize that there was a lot less to worry about as a Paragon compared to a Warrior because of how the AI function and methods of abusing it. I could attack targets until they put on their blocking stances then switch to something else, call a target for the henchmen/hero/other players to kill while I beat on something else to maintain adrenaline once prots were thrown onto that priority target. Anti-physical hexes and conditions are more frequently thrown in the faces of melee than range. There have been times where I sit on my high energy set (it's just a staff actually) just to build adrenaline because it reduces the chances of me being hit with the hate even more. Think about it anyway, a blind physical isn't going to do much anyway you might as well contribute in whatever way you can.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ccat

Your points are very good but then I don't remember having requirements from Discord for anything. A SY! team was often countered by Rot Wallows and others, but the only thing I can remember that countered Discord were Skeletons in HM.

Back up a second. Are you talking about the team build that uses a player Paragon with two Paragon heroes and some kind of Orders hero or just what a single player Paragon can do? When I hear 'Discord' I immediately think of the triple necromancer build, the same with 'Sabway'. When I hear 'Imbagon' I think of eight skills. The initial post and thread title would lead me to believe we're just talking about eight skills and you can't judge the effectiveness of a single build without the potential 56 skills to compliment it.

Generally when I die it's going to be because skills were not used correctly, not because the wrong skills were used. I'm not going to take a team of physicals into Shards of Orr and wonder why it isn't working when it worked perfectly fine elsewhere. Referring back to earlier in this post that team I used I did so for the majority, not everything. Trying to force something to work in an environment where there is most definitely something far superior is poor play. Guild Wars PvE is about building against the next challenge and while there may be builds that work crazy well in most areas there is always a chance that the direct counter is out there ready to stomp you. The 'Imbagon' is one such build, it does not require much anything else to make it work crazy good. The damage reduction is going to be useful because everything attacks, the damage it produces will always help because you always need to make things die.

I will always run this:

Aggressive Refrain
"Save Yourselves!"
Focused Anger
"There's Nothing To Fear!"
"For Great Justice!"
"Find Their Weakness!" (formally Swift Javelin/Spear of Lightning)
Vicious Attack
Ebon Battle Standard of Honor

Because it will either perform to my expectations or above. If something goes wrong I'm looking to the seven other builds in the party, not it, because if we're not succeeding I'm not going to find the fault there. Ravenheart Gloom on Hard Mode is probably the one and only exception but that's for a completely different reason on its own.

Grim Aragorn · Aug 14, 2009, 04:52 PM // 16:52

using find their weakness with vicious attack doesnt have a point ud be better with spear of lightning

Ccat · Aug 14, 2009, 05:56 PM // 17:56

I was talking about once again Racway when I said a SY! team. Whilst being about the effectiveness of SY!, this thread is also about the skill being overrated. They're really the same thing, but Racway looks to base alot of its skills around one move when in reality it can't protect that well. It's like I said, the team build leads me to believe that people actually think SY! is that useful, but until you're facing Ele Nukers everywhere you go, how high a stature it is held is questionable.

Reverend Dr · Aug 14, 2009, 08:20 PM // 20:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ccat

this thread is also about the skill being overrated.

For some reason lately people here can't seem to understand that there is a middle ground between overpowered and suck ass.

Save Yourself is good and all, but a backline shouldn't need it. As such devoting an entire character to little more than just this skill seems absolutely ridiculous. I'm not saying it isn't effective, I'm not saying it isn't easy, but what I am saying is that it is overrated.