Curse

Nubarus · Jun 28, 2010, 08:00 PM // 20:00

Last time I checked it's about TEAMPLAY, so using other classes their buffs to deal massive dmg is something I see absolutely no problems with, if every class could do the same on their own then it makes zero difference what class you play, and that will pretty much makes having different classes rather useless.
Then you can pretty make 1 class and add 1500 skills that that single class can use in whatever combination it prefers, sounds rather boring to me but ok, whatever floats your boat.

As for single target dmg, the paragon can actually do a lot of dmg on it's own with a certain build that can cause massive spike dmg, I use that build in 4 man teams or when I just don't feel like being a party's super nanny.

Combined with other classes their buffs it turns into a genuine slaughterhouse meat party complete with afterparty BBQ and free booze.

2 players have already contacted me in game and both where very pleased with the information and assistance I provided.

Khomet Si Netjer · Jun 28, 2010, 09:25 PM // 21:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nubarus

As for single target dmg, the paragon can actually do a lot of dmg on it's own with a certain build that can cause massive spike dmg, I use that build in 4 man teams or when I just don't feel like being a party's super nanny.

Combined with other classes their buffs it turns into a genuine slaughterhouse meat party complete with afterparty BBQ and free booze.

2 players have already contacted me in game and both where very pleased with the information and assistance I provided.

For any paragon build you post, I can show you how to deliver more damage with another profession. For any PvE skills you use to boost damage, those same PvE skills help other professions more, because of faster attacks, multi-attacks, or both. These are simply the facts.

Also, in terms of delivering damage by buffing your teammates, it is easy to show that Orders, Barbs, Mark of Pain, Splinter Weapon and Strength of Honor outshine anything the paragon can do, and all of those buffs apply extra damage to every hit. Sadly, the paragon has nothing to compare with this. No one asks for paragons to buff speedclear teams because they are less effective at this than the alternatives.

Nubarus · Jun 28, 2010, 09:34 PM // 21:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Khomet Si Netjer

No one asks for paragons to buff speedclear teams because they are less effective at this than the alternatives.

Good thing I never play with random players then, unless I assist players that ask for help.
Otherwise we just rampage over anything we come across and my guild and alliance do not flow with the current hype or new meta, or whatever you guys call it.

Take care.

Khomet Si Netjer · Jun 28, 2010, 09:49 PM // 21:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nubarus

Good thing I never play with random players then, unless I assist players that ask for help.
Otherwise we just rampage over anything we come across and my guild and alliance do not flow with the current hype or new meta, or whatever you guys call it.

Take care.

I'm glad you enjoy playing your paragon, I love mine too. I am hoping that by bringing attention to the paragon's weaknesses they can be addressed in the update, though realistically it's too late to make much of a difference. :-(

I hope that more thought was put into Guildwars 2.

Cuilan · Jun 28, 2010, 10:09 PM // 22:09

Good thing you don't know that a paragon build you make to match the abilities of another profession is inferior. Guess it would hurt.

Really, this is all nonsense without builds. Builds that you don't have.

Haggis of Doom · Jun 28, 2010, 11:20 PM // 23:20

I personally think people are looking at the Paragon wrong.

The class was designed to be damage + support. While it is true that it will not beat other, dedicated sources for either (JS FF DB sins, MoP necros etc), it is doing both.

Think of it this way: what are you losing by replacing another physical by a Para in a physical party? Slightly slower attacks and one less SoH. In return, you gain party support in the form of Para buffs, which while inferior to stuff like Splinter/Barbs etc, are adding up to them instead of replacing them.

Khomet Si Netjer · Jun 29, 2010, 12:02 AM // 00:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Haggis of Doom

I personally think people are looking at the Paragon wrong.

The class was designed to be damage + support. While it is true that it will not beat other, dedicated sources for either (JS FF DB sins, MoP necros etc), it is doing both.

Think of it this way: what are you losing by replacing another physical by a Para in a physical party? Slightly slower attacks and one less SoH. In return, you gain party support in the form of Para buffs, which while inferior to stuff like Splinter/Barbs etc, are adding up to them instead of replacing them.

haggis, i get what you are saying, but I can give lots of examples of other professions that do damage and support. For example the Dragon Slash warrior that also spams Save Yourselves... or the monk who puts Strength of Honor on everyone and also nukes with Ray of Judgment, Smite Hex, and Smite Condition... or the ritualist who summons an army of spirits and also throws Splinter Weapon on everyone. Paragon needs some buffs to be competitive with the alternatives that we have in the other professions.

I think that people who play paragon are playing them for love of the profession, not for their raw power... at least that is why I play mine.

The Riven · Jun 29, 2010, 01:31 AM // 01:31

All this talk about how buff can be applied by other professions better and with no need of a paragon ever.....
Yes, in an optimal party for general PvE, the paragon, while not being required is still a major boost.

My main is a Paragon, yes my default bar is classic Imbagon, yes I can roll other areas faster in teams that can follow calls, that know their class well and have a good working knowledge of the games physics, with my Necro (orders or MoP). In general though I feel far more comfortable in a pug if I do have a paragon present, even if they are unused to the role.

One more thing I think its worth noting...

Powercreep is never good.

I have said it before and ill say it again, be carefull with any buffs for Paragons, it would be far to easy for them to be turned into something far more devastating than they should be.

Oblivious Moose · Jun 29, 2010, 08:27 AM // 08:27

Why don't you guys make a new thread on the subject? arguing these silly things have gone way off the main topic.

I would like to see some things changed as well, but that's not the point of what paragons can do currently. As the OP is asking for.

Currently I'm working on a couple new solid builds to grind out this weeks traveler gifts on my paragon from scratch. One is using Illusionary Weaponry, and another using Lyssa's Aura. Sounds crazy, but I do believe either one will work just fine.

:Edit: So in less than an hour of creating this post. I've managed to create, test, tweak, perfect, and successfully grind all 10 of this weeks minotaur horns using Lyssa's Aura as my elite on my paragon solo.

I call that a great success, and shows that paragons are capable of much more than the community assumes is possible.

Klance · Jun 29, 2010, 01:24 PM // 13:24

Just because my monk can use daggers and spam JS-FF-DB does not mean that my monk is better than an assassin who uses the same chain.

I like my paragon, but playing an imbagon gets boring...and anything else i come up with just feels like a weaker version of some other class.

Khomet Si Netjer · Jun 29, 2010, 02:28 PM // 14:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Riven

All this talk about how buff can be applied by other professions better and with no need of a paragon ever.....
Yes, in an optimal party for general PvE, the paragon, while not being required is still a major boost.

My main is a Paragon, yes my default bar is classic Imbagon, yes I can roll other areas faster in teams that can follow calls, that know their class well and have a good working knowledge of the games physics, with my Necro (orders or MoP). In general though I feel far more comfortable in a pug if I do have a paragon present, even if they are unused to the role.

Imbagon is great, no one is denying that. But I think it is interesting that in a team with paragons you include a necromancer to buff their physical damage. Necromancers are great at this, but aren't paragons supposed to provide buffs for physical damage dealers? Why is the necromancer so much better at this than the paragon? Food for thought.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Riven

One more thing I think its worth noting...

Powercreep is never good.

I have said it before and ill say it again, be carefull with any buffs for Paragons, it would be far to easy for them to be turned into something far more devastating than they should be.

LOL!! Never going to happen with paragons unless they go through drastic changes. At present they have plenty of defense but no damage compared to other professions.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Klance

Just because my monk can use daggers and spam JS-FF-DB does not mean that my monk is better than an assassin who uses the same chain.

I like my paragon, but playing an imbagon gets boring...and anything else i come up with just feels like a weaker version of some other class.

/agree... and I hope they can fix this in the paragon update. I solo farm with a P/Rt, and my Hundred Blades P/W does pretty excellent damage, but at best they are merely copies of another profession. I want the paragon to be a spear-throwing song of destruction, not a wannabe warrior or ritualist or ranger. It needs to be able to shine without imitating other professions.

Oblivious Moose · Jun 29, 2010, 03:36 PM // 15:36

Maybe I should have put my disclaimer in there as normal(made for fun, not supposed to be the best of the best ect....) Anyway... The build i created cannot be exactly mimic by any other class, due to the fact its damage is coming from Leadership. Yes variants can be made, and yes its possible they are better. But when it comes to having FUN in GW, there's no greater than thinking out of the box, and creating your own builds that are successful regardless of what the community thinks of it.

And IMO, if you're specifically trying to mimic other professions for damage, you're probably playing the class as it wasnt intended for in the first place. An example is trying to play with attack speed and damage boost's when you're using a magic dps class.

In WoW its like trying to use Fireball on your rogue.
In LoL its like trying to go attack damage, fast attack speed on Anivia (a specifically designed magic user)
In CoD4 its like trying to use your shotgun as a sniper rifle.
ect...

Sure some of these things may be possible in some games(GW just makes this MUCH easier to do) But if you use the class as its designed, it shines like freshly cleaned crystal wine glass. And Im just the weirdo who enjoys doing things away from the norm. Esp turning my sniper rifle into a shotgun on FPS games. Throws people off, and the most important part, it's FUN! Which people tend to lose sight of, or do have fun in a different manner.

Khomet Si Netjer · Jun 29, 2010, 10:07 PM // 22:07

hey guys, I have compiled a list of proposed changes to various paragon skills which I am preparing to send to the Arenanet dev team so they can lol at me. :-D I'd appreciate it if you could give me some feedback. A lot of the changes may seem familiar because most of them have been discussed on gwg at one point or another.

http://pvx.wikia.com/wiki/User:Khome..._skill_changes

Ugh · Jun 29, 2010, 10:53 PM // 22:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Khomet Si Netjer

hey guys, I have compiled a list of proposed changes to various paragon skills which I am preparing to send to the Arenanet dev team so they can lol at me. :-D I'd appreciate it if you could give me some feedback. A lot of the changes may seem familiar because most of them has been discussed on gwg at one point or another.

http://pvx.wikia.com/wiki/User:Khome..._skill_changes

Your suggestions seem to make paragons more broken in large parties and still semi-useless in small ones. IMO, to make paragons 'balanced,' they'll need much more than reduced recharge times and less-conditional skills.

Also, I noticed you want paras to have damage, maintainable IAS, and deep wound similar to a warrior (but with range); interrupts, AoE, and daze similar to a ranger; attack buffs similar to a necro; and defensive/healing capabilities similar to rits and monks. That makes 'em a little too versatile, dontcha think? With the exception of the ritualist, Anet has tried to give every profession a niche (though, whether or not they've been successful is debatable), so I don't think they'll go for that.

Khomet Si Netjer · Jun 29, 2010, 11:59 PM // 23:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ugh

Your suggestions seem to make paragons more broken in large parties and still semi-useless in small ones. IMO, to make paragons 'balanced,' they'll need much more than reduced recharge times and less-conditional skills.

Also, I noticed you want paras to have damage, maintainable IAS, and deep wound similar to a warrior (but with range); interrupts, AoE, and daze similar to a ranger; attack buffs similar to a necro; and defensive/healing capabilities similar to rits and monks. That makes 'em a little too versatile, dontcha think? With the exception of the ritualist, Anet has tried to give every profession a niche (though, whether or not they've been successful is debatable), so I don't think they'll go for that.

Well the paragon is versatile by design, similar to the ritualist. However, just like the ritualist, the paragon I envision must choose what to specialize in. A paragon that is strong in Spear Mastery with maintainable IAS will have an entire skill bar devoted to that, and he will be as specialized for his task as a warrior or ranger. A paragon specializing in offensive buffs or defense or healing can do that at the expense of offensive power. This is no different than the choices that ritualists or necromancers or rangers must make. The melee professions are almost entirely focused on offense so they are a bit different. Of course you can do more than one thing at a time and be weaker at all of them, and we see this with necromancers and rangers and ritualists also.

Ugh · Jun 30, 2010, 01:30 AM // 01:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Khomet Si Netjer

Well the paragon is versatile by design, similar to the ritualist. However, just like the ritualist, the paragon I envision must choose what to specialize in. A paragon that is strong in Spear Mastery with maintainable IAS will have an entire skill bar devoted to that, and he will be as specialized for his task as a warrior or ranger. A paragon specializing in offensive buffs or defense or healing can do that at the expense of offensive power. This is no different than the choices that ritualists or necromancers or rangers must make. The melee professions are almost entirely focused on offense so they are a bit different. Of course you can do more than one thing at a time and be weaker at all of them, and we see this with necromancers and rangers and ritualists also.

Yea, I'm just saying having the best parts of some professions (i.e. rupting and DW) all available on one profession would probably be OP. Although, I have PvP in mind when I'm saying that, so I guess it wouldn't really matter if it was PvE-only.

And I don't think paras shouldn't have AoE, DW, rupts, etc; I just want them to have it in their own way, instead of stepping on the toes of other professions with para versions of already-existing skills.

Khomet Si Netjer · Jun 30, 2010, 11:16 AM // 11:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ugh

Yea, I'm just saying having the best parts of some professions (i.e. rupting and DW) all available on one profession would probably be OP. Although, I have PvP in mind when I'm saying that, so I guess it wouldn't really matter if it was PvE-only.

And I don't think paras shouldn't have AoE, DW, rupts, etc; I just want them to have it in their own way, instead of stepping on the toes of other professions with para versions of already-existing skills.

Dude... Paragons have had interrupting and daze and ranged deep wound from the day they were created... if you have a problem with that you should complain to Arenanet. I didn't create any of that stuff, it was already part of the profession as designed by Anet. Some people also think that Paragons shouldn't have any healing skills... and for these people I can only point out that they have an entire attribute line devoted to it, similar to the ritualist and his Restoration magic. Is it wrong to want the paragon to be effective using the attributes and skills he was designed with?

As for minor AoE, it's pretty useless in PvP anyway, smart enemies don't ball up. I don't see a lot of people running Barrage and Earthshaker in PvP.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Khomet Si Netjer

Dude... Paragons have had interrupting and daze and ranged deep wound from the day they were created... if you have a problem with that you should complain to Arenanet. I didn't create any of that stuff, it was already part of the profession as designed by Anet. Some people also think that Paragons shouldn't have any healing skills... and for these people I can only point out that they have an entire attribute line devoted to it, similar to the ritualist and his Restoration magic. Is it wrong to want the paragon to be effective using the attributes and skills he was designed with?

As for minor AoE, it's pretty useless in PvP anyway, smart enemies don't ball up. I don't see a lot of people running Barrage and Earthshaker in PvP.

@Ugh: On second reading I think I misunderstood you somewhat... my apologies for that.

One reason for emulating other professions' skills is that the skills in question are already easily understood from a balance standpoint, and from a coding standpoint they are easily implemented into the game. IMO the farther we deviate from existing skills the less likely the changes will ever make it into the game. Within our lifetimes, anyway. :-)

Oblivious Moose · Jun 30, 2010, 07:37 PM // 19:37

As I don't have or will ever get a wiki acc, I suggest a couple things.

Every skill te paragon uses that specify's spells as to trigger, needs to be changed to skills instead, to actually affect every class, and not just casters. The paragon is supposed to lead the whole party after all.

And I woule propose a change to leadership mechanics. Make it scale inversly with party size. Example is in a 4 man area, you would still get the same energy gain from shouts as you would in an 8 man party. so 1 party member would give 2 energy instead of 1 ect... Allowing the paragon to not be nearly useless. And also will promote solo build creation, due to less energy issues, since the skill cost is generally high.

Hope these minor suggestions will make an impression somewhere.

Khomet Si Netjer · Jun 30, 2010, 09:58 PM // 21:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oblivious Moose

As I don't have or will ever get a wiki acc, I suggest a couple things.

Every skill te paragon uses that specify's spells as to trigger, needs to be changed to skills instead, to actually affect every class, and not just casters. The paragon is supposed to lead the whole party after all.

And I woule propose a change to leadership mechanics. Make it scale inversly with party size. Example is in a 4 man area, you would still get the same energy gain from shouts as you would in an 8 man party. so 1 party member would give 2 energy instead of 1 ect... Allowing the paragon to not be nearly useless. And also will promote solo build creation, due to less energy issues, since the skill cost is generally high.

Hope these minor suggestions will make an impression somewhere.

I believe St. Mike already suggested a similar change to Leadership on the gw wiki, he suggested gaining 2 energy per person with a maximum of half the leadership attribute... so the maximum energy gain remains unchanged, but the minimum doubles. That may take some effort to accomplish and it would obviously require playtesting.

Another option (and my preference) would be to reduce the energy cost of paragon skills in general. This helps them in 4-man areas and it also means less time wasted chucking spears to gain adrenaline just to turn it back into energy. For the spear mastery paragon this is not exactly a burden, as he is already throwing spears as fast as he can anyway. But for the paragon focused solely on offensive or defensive support (anthems, healing, etc) throwing spears wastes time and is not dealing any significant damage... yet he must do it anyway to gain adrenaline that he can turn into energy. This is one of the reasons why monks and ritualists will always be better healers. It's not just that they have better skills, or that they have more energy, it's also that they don't need to spend additional time making energy whereas the paragon does. And if he encounters significant blocking, blinding, etc... no energy.

chuckles79 · Jul 06, 2010, 01:56 PM // 13:56

Here's food for thought.
I can 2 man heroway DOA in NM with my imba and another human rit.

However my imba is dead weight in HM Gloom due to excessive anti-imba hexxing plus 50% miss environment condition.

That means there is content that, as things stand right now, that you absolutely cannot use a spear based build for; which is any non-gimmick para build.

I personally think Khomet is asking for a lot, but it would be nice if a para could be welcome on any team doing any area in the game.

BTW, I think rangers are in serious danger of becoming obsolete if Spear M. gets a huge buff. That will probably be the next change after paras LOL