Curse

Xeng Suey · Oct 01, 2010, 09:47 AM // 09:47

Soultwisting Ritualist > Imbagon

Even the heroes can run it with little or no microing.

Paragons can deal dmg, you just need to know how to do your stuff by playing it and learning how to increase dmg speed and increase critical hit by learning how to position (high ground vs low ground) as paragon.

Paras are not ment to be a prot monk - they can suport
Paras are not ment to heal - they can suport
Paras are not ment to be frontliners - they can suport

Pitty that people only remember panic and ss as midliners, and cant think in stuff to deal and suport dmg (and party protection) like paragons, or rits, or other necro bars other then SS, lowering considerably theyr efectiveness in pve missions/vQing/Zbountys.

The problem is that people will only play the OP bars of the moment ( METAGAME ) in a random combination of players and professions. I do understand that most people cant be arsed to organise players and team builds, and i do understand that most people in game at this point dont have the enought maturity to think about different builds and how to increase the effectiveness in theyr gameplay, making PUGING an absolute nightmare for everyone. but this only happens because people: 1. Dont want to listen to exped people; 2. Cant play different bars then the ones used in actual meta; 3. Disregard entirely stuff as Positioning, coordination, skill usage, equipment and weapon switching.

I dont understand why people complaing about paragons dmg, when there are a elemental dmg cap in HM, making elementalist class even more useless (when using fire, water or air bars) comparing with paragons, not even mentioning the thinggy with the scattering when a bit of elemental AoE dmg is used by this class...
Can call me noob, crazy, stupid, retarded, w/e u want to not admit that my words are correct, and to learn to play is hard and needs some dedication, but the pure truth is:

with an organized team (builds, positioning and skill usage) you can completly destroy HM mobs in few seconds even using paragons. Consider for instance the folowing team build:

1 Frontline (lets say Warr with a non typical pve 100b bar)
3 Midlines (lets say 2 Esurge Mesmers or 1 Jagged bones MM+1Icy veins MM and 1 Paragon with Cruel Spear+Vicious Attack+gft+SY+"Can't Touch This!" +drunken master - dont worrie about adren., with the attack rating form from DM and with correct spear switching you will get more the enought to keep your stuff up)
1 N/R (Pain of disenchantmet+barbs+mop+EoE)
1 OoS Rit with SoS+Judges Insight+ other smite skills+ splinter+AR
1 ST rit
1 Heal (woh monk or Icy Veins N/Rt with life and kaolais)

with that team build i guarantee that you can do all EoTN dungeon in HM or in NM. Its not even hard....

I hope some people in this thread can think a bit in my words and actually get a friend or two to try this out for theyr own.

Cheers

Khomet Si Netjer · Oct 01, 2010, 12:46 PM // 12:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xeng Suey

Soultwisting Ritualist > Imbagon

Even the heroes can run it with little or no microing.

Paragons can deal dmg, you just need to know how to do your stuff by playing it and learning how to increase dmg speed and increase critical hit by learning how to position (high ground vs low ground) as paragon.

Paras are not ment to be a prot monk - they can suport
Paras are not ment to heal - they can suport
Paras are not ment to be frontliners - they can suport

Pitty that people only remember panic and ss as midliners, and cant think in stuff to deal and suport dmg (and party protection) like paragons, or rits, or other necro bars other then SS, lowering considerably theyr efectiveness in pve missions/vQing/Zbountys.

The problem is that people will only play the OP bars of the moment ( METAGAME ) in a random combination of players and professions. I do understand that most people cant be arsed to organise players and team builds, and i do understand that most people in game at this point dont have the enought maturity to think about different builds and how to increase the effectiveness in theyr gameplay, making PUGING an absolute nightmare for everyone. but this only happens because people: 1. Dont want to listen to exped people; 2. Cant play different bars then the ones used in actual meta; 3. Disregard entirely stuff as Positioning, coordination, skill usage, equipment and weapon switching.

I dont understand why people complaing about paragons dmg, when there are a elemental dmg cap in HM, making elementalist class even more useless (when using fire, water or air bars) comparing with paragons, not even mentioning the thinggy with the scattering when a bit of elemental AoE dmg is used by this class...

that is because you do not understand.
paragon damage and support is inferior to any of the alternatives, and this is why they are not favored or used. The only exception to this is Imbagon, but that relies on PVE skills rather than the strength of the paragon profession itself.

Quote:

Can call me noob, crazy, stupid, retarded, w/e u want to not admit that my words are correct, and to learn to play is hard and needs some dedication, but the pure truth is:

with an organized team (builds, positioning and skill usage) you can completly destroy HM mobs in few seconds even using paragons. Consider for instance the folowing team build:

1 Frontline (lets say Warr with a non typical pve 100b bar)
3 Midlines (lets say 2 Esurge Mesmers or 1 Jagged bones MM+1Icy veins MM and 1 Paragon with Cruel Spear+Vicious Attack+gft+SY+"Can't Touch This!" +drunken master - dont worrie about adren., with the attack rating form from DM and with correct spear switching you will get more the enought to keep your stuff up)
1 N/R (Pain of disenchantmet+barbs+mop+EoE)
1 OoS Rit with SoS+Judges Insight+ other smite skills+ splinter+AR
1 ST rit
1 Heal (woh monk or Icy Veins N/Rt with life and kaolais)

with that team build i guarantee that you can do all EoTN dungeon in HM or in NM. Its not even hard....

I hope some people in this thread can think a bit in my words and actually get a friend or two to try this out for theyr own.

Cheers

In the example team you provided the paragon is not doing anything, the 100b and the mesmers and necromancers are doing all the damage and the soultwisting rit and MM provide the defense. The paragon is redundant at best. You'd be better off with another 100b or another mesmer.

what I want is for paragons to be as good as the alternatives and that is not currently the case.

Essence Snow · Oct 01, 2010, 01:09 PM // 13:09

I'm going to have to agree in that example the para is a wasted spot. Since there is no mention of TntF and you already have a ST rit...you would be better off taking SY on the war and taking something else besides the para.

Xeng Suey · Oct 01, 2010, 01:52 PM // 13:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Khomet Si Netjer

what I want is for paragons to be as good as the alternatives and that is not currently the case.

What you want is another "balanced update" so the dmg dealt by paragon will be OP like the Esurge mesmers and DwG rits, witch will lead to another thread of this kind regarding the balanced update of another profession. On other hand, dont forget the E-surge is armor ignoring dmg (like discord, for example) making any onther kind of dmg obviously inferior, not mentioning the fast recast rate....

And btw, since your talking about the inutility of the paragon in that team build, i sugest you to try to get on your paragon and hit stuff in pve with judges insight on you, and then see what happens.... In particular try to hit monks and "softies" and take a decent dmg build. Also...try put splinter on you aswell.
SY + "Stand your ground" help damage reduction, witch is important to keep party up as you surely know, combining very well with Union from the ST rit.

I still dont see how bad are paragons when dont have a imba build loaded...

WarcryOfTruth · Oct 01, 2010, 03:43 PM // 15:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xeng Suey

I still dont see how bad are paragons when they dont have a imba build loaded...

They aren't, I use countless builds on my Paragon, but I never use Save Yourselves. I understand that the massive amount of damage reduction it offers is superior to many things, but I simply do not enjoy it, neither do the healers I party with. They do not like being bored, and personally I do not think PvE should be as easy as certain skills make it.

Essence Snow · Oct 01, 2010, 06:45 PM // 18:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xeng Suey

And btw, since your talking about the inutility of the paragon in that team build, i sugest you to try to get on your paragon and hit stuff in pve with judges insight on you, and then see what happens.... In particular try to hit monks and "softies" and take a decent dmg build. Also...try put splinter on you aswell.
SY + "Stand your ground" help damage reduction, witch is important to keep party up as you surely know, combining very well with Union from the ST rit.

I still dont see how bad are paragons when dont have a imba build loaded...

How can you not take TntF......it's actually one thing that para can do that no other proffesion can. Since SYG doesn't stack with SY.....I can't see the point in bringing it. Only thing I can think of is that you are confusing SYG and TntF.

In terms of throwing judge's insight and splinter weap on the para for dmg....you'd be better off taking a R/W with barrage and SY, and doing the same thing.

Desert Rose · Oct 02, 2010, 10:29 AM // 10:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by LifeInfusion

The paragon made a point that they did not know why they were playing their paragon. Are paragons really that bad?

Why do you play an Ele? A Ranger? A Monk? Or a Dervish? All these classes are subpar and you would never play them if you wanted to maximize your effectiveness. The only reason you favor one of these classes is because you like their look and/or their playstyle.
Now, are any of these professions bad? Is the Paragon bad? No, all these professions are simply not part of META build. E.g. in absolute terms the Paragon is the third to fourth best profession for PvE; rarely a person who knows how to create a party build would exclude a human Paragon in favor of another profession except for maybe a Warrior or an Assassin.

Khomet Si Netjer · Oct 02, 2010, 12:41 PM // 12:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Essence Snow

How can you not take TntF......it's actually one thing that para can do that no other proffesion can. Since SYG doesn't stack with SY.....I can't see the point in bringing it. Only thing I can think of is that you are confusing SYG and TntF.

In terms of throwing judge's insight and splinter weap on the para for dmg....you'd be better off taking a R/W with barrage and SY, and doing the same thing.

This.

can you make decent builds with paragon and dervish? yes, but they are underpowered relative to the competition. those who are interested in game balance should welcome the idea of making every profession viable and having every profession be good in its own way. if some professions are strictly inferior to others in every area there is no point in having those professions in the game.

LifeInfusion · Oct 03, 2010, 01:20 AM // 01:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Desert Rose

Why do you play an Ele? A Ranger? A Monk? Or a Dervish? All these classes are subpar and you would never play them if you wanted to maximize your effectiveness. The only reason you favor one of these classes is because you like their look and/or their playstyle.
Now, are any of these professions bad? Is the Paragon bad? No, all these professions are simply not part of META build. E.g. in absolute terms the Paragon is the third to fourth best profession for PvE; rarely a person who knows how to create a party build would exclude a human Paragon in favor of another profession except for maybe a Warrior or an Assassin.

The only reason why I play an ele is because that's what I played in beta. They are supposed to be the "Masters of magic" and in all areas of Normal mode up to Ring of Fire it's pretty much true since prophecies bosses halve conditions/hexes. Up until Factions powercreep they had the biggest utility set (see flag running, one of the things I liked to do in prophecies). It is in GW2 so my descendant will be ele. I also have 1/3 of my total play time invested in it. If I had maybe 1/5th of my total time invested I would have stopped playing it after hard mode. I notice kills are much faster (areas take anywhere from 30 to 50% less time with same team setup) on my Necro.

On a good day I'll do 100 with rodgort's invocation on 16 fire (supposed to do 127) to hard mode caster mobs, in a bad zone I'll do 40. I don't bother with it against Destroyers or fire mobs.

The only reason why I play a monk is because they have the only reliable hex removal besides mesmers, divine favor makes small prots more powerful... and it is easy to get teams. Sometimes playing with H/H gets boring.

I don't play ranger in PVE. I have 106 ranger tomes saved up, but I didn't make a ranger because I didn't want to invest that much time in one since they announced GW2.

I hate dervishes in PVE because most of them are bad. Eternal Aura with Grenth's Avatar or Lyssa's Avatar and no defensive skills to compensate for low armor, for example. On my monk it is pure hell to prot a dervish, a catastrophe if there's 2 of them. It is compounded by the fact that most don't bother bringing Conviction or Avatar of Balthazar, opting for avatar of lyssa or grenth...

The thing is I like the paragon in theory and I try to bring one as much as possible, even if all they bring to the table is TNTF. I've seen non-imbagon bars with just TNTF and they help out quite a bit since there is lack of party healing outside of protective was kaolai and heal party/Light of deliverance/divine healing spam.

The way I see it:

Panic mes that knows what they're doing, with interrupt/shutdowns such as complicate or powerlock for mobs that just won't go down ... in hard mode mesmers are king due to fast cast and shutdown being more effective than interrupts
Ritualist with SoS, Splinter if with physicals ... because armor ignoring damage is king
Necro with SS , Mark of pain if with physicals
Necro with minions, Aegis/Prot spirit, SoA
Monk with Hybrid bar to catch spikes
Assassin with death blossom or other AoE armor ignoring damage attacks and some survival skill + SY!
any Paragon with TNTF and 9+ spear
any warrior with 12+ weapon + SY! ; asuran scan; brawling headbutt
Rangers with splinter + d-shot; BHA against caster bosses; ; bonus points for frozen soil in certain areas and asuran scan
elementalist that is running air and/or wards, prot spirit/aegis (with glyph on their bar, and/or ER)
Assassins with any weapon 12+ ; asuran scan (assassins are easier to mess up depending on the player playing them)
Dervishes with conviction and 12+ scythe
anything with pet that draws mass aggro (aka pet not on guard)

I generally play casters (Ele, Necro, Monk, Mes, Rit). However, all my posts since the start of my posts years ago, focus on making all the professions viable without being overpowered (see nightfall powercreep via searing flames) which is why I am interested in all professions' viability.

EDIT: fixed spelling