Curse

Lumpen · Nov 27, 2010, 11:01 PM // 23:01

Referring to Imbagons:
I was curious what insight people could offer regarding Flurry vs Aggressive Refrain(AR). It seems like Flurry is a much better alternative since Imbagons aren't looking to deal significant damage and would benefit from the additional armor (since AR keeps a refreshing Cracked Armor on the Imbagon)

I've also had issues with not having enough energy (without weapon swapping) to recast Aggressive Refrain if it drops between fights.

Flurry also gives an increased IAS of 33% vs AR's 25%.

I have had a chance to use Flurry, but not very extensively. It's been great thus far

Thanks for any and all feedback! ^^

Xsiriss · Nov 27, 2010, 11:29 PM // 23:29

Initial thoughts: Flurry would be a lot more energy consuming over time as aggressive refrain will reapply itself as well as being an echo which is unstrippable/stackable. If you're using a n/rt healer in your group they'll remove the cracked armour so much it becomes negligable.

arturfel · Nov 27, 2010, 11:33 PM // 23:33

Sure its better for spaming SY. You can use an zealous spear for energy, its better too.

Personally i prefer agressive refrain, just cast and forget. Its hard to drop with others paragons in the team. There is already too many buttons push playing with a paragon, flurry would be another one.

idt75 · Nov 27, 2010, 11:57 PM // 23:57

First post hehe

I just wanted to correct you people on the cracked armor part, it's been a while since Refrain and Soldier's Fury were changed and they now simply apply -20 armor all the time instead of cracked armor, so it's not removable.

_Aphotic_ · Nov 28, 2010, 01:40 AM // 01:40

Flurry definitely wins.
Imba IMO is to have 100% uptime of SY! while it's damage output is completely (or near completely) negligible.
If you're having problems with energy, try running (if you haven't already) 14 leadership and making sure all party members are within in range when you use SY!. It's pretty amazing what the additional energy can do, I can even manage using WSR! when the UA monks go down (and still have enough to go on to keep up SY!).

wilebill · Nov 28, 2010, 03:32 AM // 03:32

Of the two, prefer Flurry.

Worst problem for either are mobs that cast anti adrenaline on you or suck your energy or block your spear. Doom city.

If with a player group, need to run AR since they expect it and will put up with lower performance knowing that you have a "proper build." With a H/H group do as you like.

With high enough Kurzick or Luxon rank, Spear of Fury works best of all!

OQGjUimKKTuiieVYRYhfWYlenYA absolutely deadly, no IAS at all. Enough energy to spam Snow Storm! Burning refrain, have mouse button to select warrior party member, keep everything on fire while we're at it. Anthem of Flame or Anthem of Weariness to apply condition before Spear of Fury, if needed. Replace Burning Refrain with For Great Justice for quick initial adrenaline build, or with Flurry or AR if desired. As shown, this is the build I used to vanquish Mount Qinkai repeatedly for Luxon faction.

OQkiExlMBkJkFTW6J6xXdV8XBA For comparison this W/P build. SY is still up a lot. Stunning strike is useful too. With Str 16, Spear 12, and Flail up, performance is impressive. The 16% armor penetration is noticeable. AR should be a Flail for the Paragon, but it is not.

Why must the Paragon continue to suffer with a gimped IAS? Unknown.

FoxBat · Nov 28, 2010, 03:39 AM // 03:39

Flurry? Manly paras run Frenzy.

Lanier · Nov 28, 2010, 05:45 AM // 05:45

The one and only advantage of flurry is having greater armor. The downside is that it is more energy intensive (since AR doesnt have to be recast and can be easily maintained with Tntf) and limits damage. An imbagon's damage potential is actually fairly high since they don't need much investment in any attributes besides Leadership. I typically end up with a spear mastery of 14 on my imbagon builds, and since SY gives a ton of energy, its easy to maintain a spam of energy-intensive spear attacks like spear of lightning and spear of fury. Therefore, I definitely recommend AR. Paragons are rarely targeted anyway, and with shield + 80 base ar + insignia bonus, you'll have a fairly high armor rating, so the only advantage that flurry has isn't much of a big deal anyway. I say go for AR and get as much damage as possible out of your build.

FoxBat · Nov 28, 2010, 05:48 AM // 05:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lanier

The one and only advantage of flurry is having greater armor.

And 33% attack speed instead of 25%, which means that much more adrenaline per time.

ogre_jd · Nov 28, 2010, 06:06 AM // 06:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by FoxBat

Flurry? Manly paras run Frenzy.

Might as well - after all, you rarely draw all that much aggro thanks to being mostly midline, except when using Aggressive Refrain, which effectively turns you into a squishy for the duration, as far as enemy's perceptions are concerned. At least in my experience. Almost lost my Survivor 'cos of that...

And, of course, Frenzy's a stance so you don't stand there being useless for 2s while you cast it.

Not to mention being one fifth the cost...

dasmitchies · Nov 28, 2010, 07:19 AM // 07:19

Aggressive refrain is better for energy management. Pvx imba build works fine.

Lanier · Nov 28, 2010, 03:46 PM // 15:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by FoxBat

And 33% attack speed instead of 25%, which means that much more adrenaline per time.

the difference between 33% and 25% is barely noticeable. Unless your in a battle where you are fighting enemies non-stop forever, its not even worth taking into consideration. Plus, id rather be able to do damage anyway.

Quote:

Might as well - after all, you rarely draw all that much aggro thanks to being mostly midline, except when using Aggressive Refrain, which effectively turns you into a squishy for the duration, as far as enemy's perceptions are concerned. At least in my experience. Almost lost my Survivor 'cos of that...

And, of course, Frenzy's a stance so you don't stand there being useless for 2s while you cast it. Not to mention being one fifth the cost...

Why would the cost or casting time of AR mean anything... at all? You're supposed to cast AR at the beginning of an area (or when you rez) and maintain it with a skill on your bar like TnTF.

FoxBat · Nov 28, 2010, 05:02 PM // 17:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lanier

the difference between 33% and 25% is barely noticeable. Unless your in a battle where you are fighting enemies non-stop forever, its not even worth taking into consideration.

It's 4.5 seconds to build your SY instead of 4. For a shout that lasts 6 seconds max, and taking into account crap like repositioning, blocking, getting blinded, etc, .5 seconds can matter. Not sure it's enough to screw your energy, but it's hardly negligible.

Lanier · Nov 28, 2010, 07:23 PM // 19:23

well i guess we're all entitled to our opinions. .5 seconds doesn't seem like a big deal at all to me and its definitely not worth killing my offensive potential for but this is all my opinion...

Arrogant Bastard · Nov 28, 2010, 09:04 PM // 21:04

I mostly use Drunken Master (usually with alcohol or in a team using essence) and sometimes AR, mainly because I hate having to spam Frenzy along with every other skill.

Desert Rose · Nov 28, 2010, 11:46 PM // 23:46

Out of the two AR is far better; it costs basically no energy at all and provides more damage bonus.
If you're not running 12+ points in Spear Mastery when playing an Imbagon you're doing something wrong, the selling point for an Imbagon is that he can deal a noticeable amount of damage and provides lots of defensive support. Also Flurry costs a lot of energy which could be used to support your party or deal damage yourself, e.g. EBSoH.
Drunken Master is another good option, but it costs a PvE slot and you need to be drunk; Frenzy doesn't sounds so bad, but it's also quite energy heavy and you might can put that energy to better use.

Btw: You can switch to an helmet with +4 Leadership, cast AR, and then switch back to your regular helmet.

TBradly · Jan 02, 2011, 05:04 AM // 05:04

I noticed that if you go with a spear chuker using Flurry & AR then it's cancels itself out when you use spear skills as the toon takes time to 'prep' the throw which just makes the flurry seem useless. That's solely on what I noticed using a build of my own division.

reaper with no name · Jan 02, 2011, 05:12 AM // 05:12

Contrary to popular belief, Imbagons do deal some damage. And for this purpose AR proves superior.

NerfHerder · Jan 02, 2011, 08:20 AM // 08:20

I would say AR > Flurry for an Imba. Like Lanier said, AR can be easily maintained with "TNTF!". Flurry takes alot of energy and must be watched more closely. And the DPS from a spear should not be underestimated or undermined.

I prefer niether. I use a Soldier's Fury Imba and never have trouble maintaining "SY!". I also deal decent spike damage to single targets. The -20 armor isnt an issue. You still have "TNTF!", 86AR, and 110AR with "SYG!" most of the time.

Kunder · Jan 02, 2011, 03:02 PM // 15:02

Flurry attacks 13.6% more often than AR. When you take into account the fact that the -25% damage only applies to base spear damage, not attack skill damage or buffs, Flurry probably comes out equal or slightly ahead in most team builds. However, if you aren't really mashing down Flurry on recharge (or if you have a high ping) then AR is definitely better because losing even a half second of Flurry negates most of the attack speed you gained.