Curse

Infanta · Mar 10, 2011, 01:27 AM // 01:27

I don't really ever pay attention to Paragons, but it seems outside of the niche imbagon they really don't get much use... (speaking from a PvE perspective).

Just curious what people think about Paragons, and if maybe they should be next for an overhaul?

ogre_jd · Mar 10, 2011, 01:55 AM // 01:55

A good Command Paragon is a valuable asset, especially now that we can run 7 Heroes, if you tend to use more attackers than spellcasters like I do. The constant spamming of Anthem of Flame (since you're going to give him Leadership anyways) and Go For The Eyes! alone make a Paragon worth having, even in Hard Mode. They're no slouches at contributing directly to the team's damage, either, even though they have no AoE.

EDIT: If you've got a P/W (11+2+1 Spear Mastery, Command 10+1, Leadership 10+1) handy, run a few missions with "Incoming!", Holy Spear, Blazing Spear, "Find Their Weakness!", Anthem of Flame, "Go For The Eyes!", Anthem of Disruption, and "For Great Justice!". It's certainly made a difference for me.

Lord Mip · Mar 10, 2011, 01:59 AM // 01:59

Paragons are OK. It's just that the other professions have become so insanely powerful that the Paragons are lacking in the PvE department (and PvP as well tbh)

Rites · Mar 10, 2011, 02:10 AM // 02:10

paragons are basically in the same boat as rangers..

if you can play a ranger efficiently, then playing a paragon wont be so hard

and i do just fine with my para

Axel Zinfandel · Mar 10, 2011, 02:26 AM // 02:26

My PvE assessment of paragons are as such:

They are, with the dervish, the newest classes in GW, thus having the least skills. As such, I think the skills need to be of general enough use to a player, without many skills sitting there that you think "I would never use this" when looking at.

general overview, the things that are bad about paragon are:
1) Skills that are too specific to certain classes

Examples of such being Aria skills (trigger on spell), Lyric skills (trigger on signet) are far too specific to be used in a party.

2) IMS skills

Fallback is used. Godspeed, "Lead the Way!", "Make Haste!" are not used, and redundant. Like Dervish Wind Prayers, it is better put to a different use that can actually serve well.

3) Motivation

Along with unused, specific skills, a lot of healing related motivation skills suffer too long recharge times for too little reward. I have said it before, and I'll say it again, in that I believe all Chant skills should be lowered from earshot range to perhaps In the Area or Nearby range, and have their effects and recharge buffed to compensate. This would leave the skills more potent, but force the paragon to watch the battlefield and who they might affect with these skills (which is not a bad thing IMO). Not to mention it makes sense that Chanting be quieter than shouting :P

4) unattractive elite skills

a few are used, but as with all skills, elite skills need to be effective and widely usable.

Anthem of Guidance / Crippling anthem are poor, "Incoming!" could be better, "It's Just a Flesh Wound." is good in theory, but just isn't used much and could be put to better use. "The Power Is Yours!" could be tweaked to provider a better synergy with Finale skills. Song of Restoration would be good if tweaked as stated above.

Angelic Bond, Anthem of Fury and Defensive Anthem could be tweaked.

The rest are fine and probably should not be touched.

TL;DR- make stuff better

LifeInfusion · Mar 10, 2011, 02:50 AM // 02:50

Motivation is a gimmick at best. "The Power is Yours!" + Energizing finale is plain abuse. (up to +2 energy/second with FGJ)
The 20 recharge party heals are pretty lame, Chorus of Restoration is only going to be a full paragon team gimmick. Lyric of Zeal is incredibly niche, Energizing Chorus is only good for more Paragons. Lyric of Purification is laughable compared to pure was Li Ming.

Command has Stand your ground (+24 armor ~-30% damage), fall back, go for the eyes, anthem of envy.

spears have vicious attack, spear of lightning, blazing spear, wild throw (stance removal), spear of redemption/holy spear, swift javelin...

TNTF if you're a human Paragon = additional 60 party heal (which is why Motivation sucks) and -35% damage.

AngelWJedi · Mar 10, 2011, 02:51 AM // 02:51

para is like the ranger both are good but their are better classes then them. and yes i wish they work on para next. im tired of running the same standard build or so weird build that rarely works.

Zahr Dalsk · Mar 10, 2011, 03:01 AM // 03:01

I think Paragon would be more popular if the armour didn't look so bad (and repetitive, most Paragon sets aside from Obsidian and Norn look far too similar).

Gift3d · Mar 10, 2011, 04:26 AM // 04:26

para's got great secondary skills to use on heroes that don't suck balls at doing damage or healing.

but yeah, for pve it's imbagon and nothing else. for pvp it's stunning strike, maybe a sub-par cruel spear sometimes.

paras and dervishes a couple weeks ago were both total crap. the only thing that brought the attention to dervishes was the fact other classes used their skills better than dervishes themselves. that's not the same case with paragons, instead other classes do more with secondary para skills than any paragon build could ever come close to.

it's a great concept with a lot of potential, but with specific and illogically oriented skills, straight up underpowered and useless skills, and even more specific builds that amount to single-digits in total, our paragons are going nowhere fast.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zahr Dalsk

I think Paragon would be more popular if the armour didn't look so bad (and repetitive, most Paragon sets aside from Obsidian and Norn look far too similar).

when i see a post as ridiculously asinine as this i really can't help but tell you that has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with... well, really anything at all.

myths of fury · Mar 10, 2011, 04:40 AM // 04:40

Paragon are good for support and if you can get your team to have synergy with some builds they can use it can be really good. The melee buffs can be really considerable (when considering that even spirits/minions take advantage of them) and they have decent buffs for casters as well.

3x Anthem Of Fury paras with some spammable adrenaline attacks/shouts and you can really abuse them. Also usefull with some Derv OP adrenaline skills (I.E. Chilling Victory)

So yes, Imbagon is mostly the only "all around" build for a paragon if you want a build to pop into any group and be useful. I'd rather use a para hero then play on my own paragon, but there's a couple of usefull tricks paras can exploit. It is true some skills could get a revamp as well, since the skill pool is slim, they should be better on average imo.

WarcryOfTruth · Mar 10, 2011, 05:49 AM // 05:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gift3d

but yeah, for pve it's imbagon and nothing else. for pvp it's stunning strike, maybe a sub-par cruel spear sometimes.

I saw this and stopped reading. The shear ignorance from this statement alone amuses me. I run a non Imbagon everywhere, even in places where people think its required. This is utter tripe, while I understand how strong playing as one is, it is by no means the only option.

On topic: Paragons are what you make them out to be. They have a lot of potential, and can greatly benefit a team.

DRGN · Mar 10, 2011, 06:16 AM // 06:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by WarcryOfTruth

I saw this and stopped reading. The shear ignorance from this statement alone amuses me. I run a non Imbagon everywhere, even in places where people think its required. This is utter tripe, while I understand how strong playing as one is, it is by no means the only option.

On topic: Paragons are what you make them out to be. They have a lot of potential, and can greatly benefit a team.

How many things does a Paragon do that another class can't do better? That's the main complaint against them, and why they're basically dead in PvP and, outside of the imbagon, PvE as well. All their good skills(and a couple warrior one they used) were nerfed into the ground, and only a handful have been brought back to any form of usability.

And yes, I do play one regularly.

Hyaon · Mar 10, 2011, 02:11 PM // 14:11

don't forget find their weakness and spear of fury with a 16 spear/15 command para..its ouchie! I dont use imalabollocksgins, just full out offensive skills.

Kirzath · Mar 10, 2011, 03:04 PM // 15:04

Me and my 3 paragon heroes laugh at those who think Paragons are bad at PVE.

Paragons are fine as it stands, when compared to other classes. A buff would only make them incredibly overpowered and continue the (damaging) power creep trend.

FengShuiDove · Mar 10, 2011, 03:05 PM // 15:05

Offensive physical support via Command - Great
Offensive caster support - Crap
Defensive support via Motivation - Crap
Direct damage via Spear - Decent

A good Command Paragon helps speed you up with FB and can do some great buffing in phys-heavy teams, but it's replaceable and any other uses are underwhelming.

Kirzath · Mar 10, 2011, 03:07 PM // 15:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by FengShuiDove

Defensive support via Motivation - Crap

Look at how stupid you are

thedukesd · Mar 10, 2011, 03:31 PM // 15:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kirzath

Look at how stupid you are

How about this Avatar of Dwayna ?

Would you chose Finale Of Restoration para or Avatar of Dwayna derv?

Kirzath · Mar 10, 2011, 03:42 PM // 15:42

Considering 4 Paras and the ease of spamming shouts over enchantments, and the fact enchantments are selfish (shouts offer benefits to the party before they actually end), Finale of Restoration any day.

Quaker · Mar 10, 2011, 03:50 PM // 15:50

Other than Imbagons, there's not much to especially like about Paragons - I don't find them to be especially better or worse than other classes. My main complaint with Paragons is that every freakin one of them has to wear a white skirt.

aspi · Mar 10, 2011, 03:58 PM // 15:58

They are more than ok. I began with my necro, one OP class to say the least. After that my warrior who is, with team buffs, also incredible powerfull.

One of the last was my paragon, at first I didnt like it, but began to appriciate it. I love it now but still I find it harder to play then my other chars. But its fun to play because I think its very different from my other classes.