Curse

Our Virus · Mar 28, 2011, 03:09 AM // 03:09

Why does the Paragon only get 2bips of energy reeneration? I understand leadership is a great way of emanage, but what about those places like RA and low end/solo pve areas where you can only have so many allies. Sure if in a full party you can get up to 7 energy with one skill, but you aren't always in a full party. Assassins get 4bips of regen while alot of their skills give energy back anway plus critical strikes is constant energy spam. Dervs are just stupid broken with energy management especially with the new adrnl update, an still have 4bips. Necros can gain 1 energy per rank when things die, which theycan force with minions. All other professions that are remotely close to be used in situations para woul be used have 4bips and greater emanage than paras. Maybe in a close update we could gve an extra bip to paras, or maybe make leadership a little better. Let's be honest, throwing a 10 in leadership just to have adequate emanage is a waste of attibutes plus you always get the one genius who runs away from the group or AI kiting away so you gain less energy. Maybe increase shout range? Idk, just lame how paras get crippled in emanage with skills costing 25 energy.

IronSheik · Mar 28, 2011, 04:38 AM // 04:38

I manage fine in RA with energy, change your build.

Kunder · Mar 28, 2011, 04:47 AM // 04:47

If there is no party around then you have no need to spam costly party-wide shouts, obviously.

turbo234 · Mar 28, 2011, 04:59 AM // 04:59

what are adrenal skills? i heard they were pretty cool.

Rites · Mar 28, 2011, 05:06 AM // 05:06

if you read the description of paras... they are NOT intended to solo. their whole purpose is dependent on a party

learn your class..... build appropriately.... quit whining

placetoguru · Mar 28, 2011, 06:09 AM // 06:09

meh, i agree both sides of this argument. but in my opinion i think that having 3 pipes of regen would be a good simple buff to paragons and their emanagment would be similar to that of rangers.

Rites · Mar 28, 2011, 06:28 AM // 06:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by placetoguru

meh, i agree both sides of this argument. but in my opinion i think that having 3 pipes of regen would be a good simple buff to paragons and their emanagment would be similar to that of rangers.

yet another "expertise" type e-management system? that would just plain suck

give paras 3 pips e regen..... remove the 80 AL armor

seriously, peeps forget the original "balance" ideas put into these classes (not that ANet has been paying attention either), but more e-regen = lower armor (and peeps complain about -20 AL on paras already, so dropping another 10 would be a fun laugh)

[email protected]!k3 · Mar 28, 2011, 07:53 AM // 07:53

Even if it is intended for paragons to be playing in parties it still does no justice to leave them entirely dependent on their party for their own efficiency. A monk's role is also to provide party support by keeping them alive, but at least they have skills to aid them in that role if the situation is changed. For example, In Prophecies you have many 4-man areas; While monks are able to adapt to the situation by changing their skills to suit 4 players, a paragon cannot. As mentioned, Paragons are forced to invest an excess of attribute points that can be used to make them more effective, just to make their energy manageable, thus decreasing their effectiveness in a party. It's not a question if someone is able to "build appropriately", but it is the fact that they cannot; solely because of the barrier that are presented in making paragon builds. I don't want to give the impression that all paragon builds are bad, but it is somewhat difficult to make builds that are remotely synergistic in every possible situation, considering all the gimped skills.

Spiritz · Mar 28, 2011, 08:12 AM // 08:12

If you notice - wars and paras have 2 pip regen as most of their skills are andren based and i think paras can also regain some energy after a shout runs out but both have high armor to compensate.
Rangers have 3 regen but then again they have expertise to compensate for costs.
Casters tend to have at times high energy cost skills so energy limit and regen are important - dervs were recently changed so i`ll forget them for now.
If you look at paragon they are as stated "Party support" - they support the party and probably out of all gw professions are the one who isnt really designed to be a great solo chr - its how they were designed to be - same as warriors are not gd casters.
[email protected]!k3 generally sums the rest up for me.

Our Virus · Mar 28, 2011, 08:43 AM // 08:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by [email protected]!k3

Even if it is intended for paragons to be playing in parties it still does no justice to leave them entirely dependent on their party for their own efficiency. A monk's role is also to provide party support by keeping them alive, but at least they have skills to aid them in that role if the situation is changed. For example, In Prophecies you have many 4-man areas; While monks are able to adapt to the situation by changing their skills to suit 4 players, a paragon cannot. As mentioned, Paragons are forced to invest an excess of attribute points that can be used to make them more effective, just to make their energy manageable, thus decreasing their effectiveness in a party. It's not a question if someone is able to "build appropriately", but it is the fact that they cannot; solely because of the barrier that are presented in making paragon builds. I don't want to give the impression that all paragon builds are bad, but it is somewhat difficult to make builds that are remotely synergistic in every possible situation, considering all the gimped skills.

Thanks for actually understading my point unlike the rest of the posters whom like to insult more than thinking a little harder than what is required.
For those who will post and already posted, more of a wonder not a whine why paras have high costing skills with only 2bips of regen, and also my Emanage everywhere on a para is fine even when I'm soloing fow, uw, and doa. I'm simply wantingto expand the amount of versitility paras have so maybe more people will play them.

Washi · Mar 28, 2011, 02:11 PM // 14:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Our Virus

Thanks for actually understading my point unlike the rest of the posters whom like to insult more than thinking a little harder than what is required.

No no, it is YOU who do not understand the simple point. Paragons and warriors have 80 AL, they also have 2 pips of energy regen and use adrenaline. And you compare them to casters..... So who exactly does not think?

Khomet Si Netjer · Mar 28, 2011, 04:45 PM // 16:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Our Virus

Thanks for actually understading my point unlike the rest of the posters whom like to insult more than thinking a little harder than what is required.
For those who will post and already posted, more of a wonder not a whine why paras have high costing skills with only 2bips of regen, and also my Emanage everywhere on a para is fine even when I'm soloing fow, uw, and doa. I'm simply wantingto expand the amount of versitility paras have so maybe more people will play them.

I love paragons but it should be obvious to all by now that they were poorly designed. The energy management problem you describe could be fixed by better skills but the paragon really doesn't have any. Glowing Signet is an example of a skill that could provide energy but its recharge is too long and it is conditional energy gain at that. Leader's Zeal is another energy gain skill that is mostly useless because it is not balanced properly.

Compare and contrast to energy management skills like Warrior's Endurance, Zealous Vow, Radiant Scythe, Marksman's Wager, Prepared Shot, Scavenger's Strike, Golden Lotus Strike, Critical Eye. The other professions have ways to gain a LOT of energy if they need it. There's really no way for the paragon to do this without shouts... and those return much less energy when flying solo, making their net energy cost much greater than it is in a party of 8.

Rites · Mar 28, 2011, 04:51 PM // 16:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Our Virus

For those who will post and already posted, more of a wonder not a whine why paras have high costing skills with only 2bips of regen, and also my Emanage everywhere on a para is fine even when I'm soloing fow, uw, and doa. I'm simply wantingto expand the amount of versitility paras have so maybe more people will play them.

there are alot of people that play paras, myself included

but apparently you did not read properly so let me dumb it down for you.

paragons are based off of the warrior class system, thus their AL is high but energy regen is low. the original intention of the creation of para bars was intended to also be similar to the warrior bars in that it would be a mix of adrenaline and energy based skills, but because paragons are more supportive than their warrior counterparts, they needed an energy management gimmick, thus leadership gives you energy return based off of party members affected. granted, in a 4 man party this does not seem much of a gain, but you do notice a more meaningful gain if the party is larger (8 man parties, or even minions will help raise the return).

but your problem is that you are comparing the energy regen of a full support role that ONLY relies on energy based skills (monk, necro) with the energy management of a support class that has both adrenaline and energy based skills, which is like comparing apples to oranges

Quote:

Originally Posted by Khomet Si Netjer

Compare and contrast to energy management skills like Warrior's Endurance, Zealous Vow, Radiant Scythe, Marksman's Wager, Prepared Shot, Scavenger's Strike, Golden Lotus Strike, Critical Eye. The other professions have ways to gain a LOT of energy if they need it. There's really no way for the paragon to do this without shouts... and those return much less energy when flying solo, making their net energy cost much greater than it is in a party of 8.

although i agree that energy regen for paras are limited, from what i remember paras are the only profession that provide party wide energy regen skills. they aren't the best, nor do they last long, but 3 paragons spamming "the power is yours" and song of power provide the whole party with decent short bursts of energy regen.

i agree that para skills need to be fixed but i do not believe that their energy management is really an issue

Khomet Si Netjer · Mar 28, 2011, 07:58 PM // 19:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rites

there are alot of people that play paras, myself included

but apparently you did not read properly so let me dumb it down for you.

paragons are based off of the warrior class system, thus their AL is high but energy regen is low. the original intention of the creation of para bars was intended to also be similar to the warrior bars in that it would be a mix of adrenaline and energy based skills, but because paragons are more supportive than their warrior counterparts, they needed an energy management gimmick, thus leadership gives you energy return based off of party members affected. granted, in a 4 man party this does not seem much of a gain, but you do notice a more meaningful gain if the party is larger (8 man parties, or even minions will help raise the return).

...

but your problem is that you are comparing the energy regen of a full support role that ONLY relies on energy based skills (monk, necro) with the energy management of a support class that has both adrenaline and energy based skills, which is like comparing apples to oranges

You don't seem to understand the concept of skill balance so let me draw you a picture. Dervishes have 4 energy regen, *AND* adrenaline attack skills, *AND* excellent energy management (zealous vow, eremite's zeal, radiant scythe), *AND* a primary attribute that reduces cost of dervish enchantments. They are much better off than warriors, paragons, or even assassins and it has absolutely nothing to do with being a "support class" which is the nonsense you keep posting all around gwguru.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rites

although i agree that energy regen for paras are limited, from what i remember paras are the only profession that provide party wide energy regen skills. they aren't the best, nor do they last long, but 3 paragons spamming "the power is yours" and song of power provide the whole party with decent short bursts of energy regen.

i agree that para skills need to be fixed but i do not believe that their energy management is really an issue

1) TPIY's energy gain is so low that it is useless. The paragon gains the same energy (minus 1) from spamming GFTE or SY, this is wasting your elite slot. And it doesn't help you if you're alone. See Racthoh's commentary below.
"It was far more useful in the old form. It's trash now. Racthoh 05:35, 7 October 2008 (UTC)"

2) You can't have multiple paragons spamming TPIY, the shouts do not stack.

3) Song of Power ends if you use a skill, so it is useless when you need it (in combat). And if the paragon needs energy, it is still useless because it costs 25 to activate... if you had this much energy, you wouldn't need to use it.

I'll be the first to agree that energy management is not the biggest problem paragons face, it's just one problem out of many. It's very frustrating to see Anet do full reworks of ritualists, mesmers, and dervishes and leave paragons in this sad state for so long.

Lanier · Mar 28, 2011, 08:12 PM // 20:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Khomet Si Netjer

You don't seem to understand the concept of skill balance so let me draw you a picture. Dervishes have 4 energy regen, *AND* adrenaline attack skills, *AND* excellent energy management (zealous vow, eremite's zeal, radiant scythe), *AND* a primary attribute that reduces cost of dervish enchantments. They are much better off than warriors, paragons, or even assassins and it has absolutely nothing to do with being a "support class" which is the nonsense you keep posting all around gwguru.

That is more an issue of devs being way too powerful (in the energy management department). The solution to a paragon vs. derv comparison would be to tone down the dervs.

While paragons certainly need fixing (and a lot of it), energy management is one of the few issues that paragons do not have a problem with.

You bring up that paragons are a support class. I wish that anet would actually do something to make paragons a support class, rather than giving them all the overly situational, conditional, or randomly-activating garbage that most of the paragon's chants and shouts currently consist of.

Our Virus · Mar 28, 2011, 09:04 PM // 21:04

No matter how much everyone tries to act like they know, in still pretty sure I understand the point I'm making more than the readers. Khomet, because I know you and respect you I always take your comments into consideration. Everyone else, just keep saying hit to try to sound smart. Thankiessss

Khomet Si Netjer · Mar 28, 2011, 09:16 PM // 21:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Our Virus

No matter how much everyone tries to act like they know, in still pretty sure I understand the point I'm making more than the readers. Khomet, because I know you and respect you I always take your comments into consideration. Everyone else, just keep saying hit to try to sound smart. Thankiessss

no worries brother.
when i see someone being attacked unfairly it really gets under my skin.

iToasterHD · Mar 28, 2011, 10:12 PM // 22:12

Khomet, do you think a substantial (and therefore unlikely) update would be necessary to make Paragons a decent profession, rather than a one-trick pony? Or do you think it is possible that small, but very precise changes could be just as effective? I don't have an exact source, but I have heard multiple times that there will be no more large skill updates like seen with the recent Dervish update.

*EDIT* I managed to find your proposed "Paragon Skill Changes" which answers my question and in great detail. I suppose I amend my question to: how likely do you think they will make such an update for the Paragon?

Khomet Si Netjer · Mar 29, 2011, 01:52 AM // 01:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by iToasterHD

Khomet, do you think a substantial (and therefore unlikely) update would be necessary to make Paragons a decent profession, rather than a one-trick pony? Or do you think it is possible that small, but very precise changes could be just as effective? I don't have an exact source, but I have heard multiple times that there will be no more large skill updates like seen with the recent Dervish update.

*EDIT* I managed to find your proposed "Paragon Skill Changes" which answers my question and in great detail. I suppose I amend my question to: how likely do you think they will make such an update for the Paragon?

Man I get frustrated every time I think about this, but I will try to give the best answers I can. I think that Paragons and Mesmers were balanced around PvP and it shows in their skill sets. Unfortunately, what the devs considered appropriate for PvP was completely terrible for PvE. No AoE of any kind and extremely conditional skills with long recharges. Last year they fixed the mesmers, and look at the things they changed... shorter recharges everywhere, improvement to fast casting to make it even better, AoE effects and lower costs on skills. Paragons need the same kind of changes. Paragons have suffered greatly because of perceived PvP imbalance which imo was only the usual crying about builds that people lose against, like IWAY or bloodspike or rspike or bbway or dervway. Unfortunately a lot of their skills were changed or nerfed before there was a PvE/PvP skill split, and so many (most?) of the skills are weak in PvE even though they might be considered acceptable in PvP. (i think they are weak in PvP too, but that's a separate issue).

Paragons need a skill overhaul like the dervish. Unlike the dervish, I think paragons are fundamentally okay... they have a good weapon, they have good armor, and leadership is good too. It gives good energy gain under certain conditions and with certain skills but I don't think anyone would make the claim that it is as overpowered as Soul Reaping or Expertise. So in my opinion all that is needed for paragon is a thorough look at the skills to bring them in line with the other professions. They need to be able to fill all of their roles well, and they can't do anything well at the moment; the only meta role they have is PvE skill abuse, namely "Imbagon". Shouldn't the paragon be able to do well without any PvE skills? Rit does okay with communing and SoGM, or channeling and SoS... Mesmer does fine with Panic, Esurge, etc.... Ranger does fine with Barrage, Glass Arrows, etc... Paragon should have the ability to do well without relying on PvE skills, and this is not the case at present.

I see the paragon's roles as follows:
Damage (spear, offensive buffs)
Defense (defensive buffs; imbagon and similar)
Support (misc buffs; fallback, energy, healing)

All of these are terrible at the moment; the Defense category is only strong because of TNTF and SY, both PvE skills. All of the skills should be examined so that the paragon has capabilities similar to other professions. For example I had the idea that some of the Anthems should work like Orders, and some Leadership skills should work like existing monk skills. The balancing of these skills needs to examined carefully, but by comparing to existing skills we can get a good idea of the power level that Anet considers to be reasonable, and thus these suggestions should be reasonable as well, being based on existing skills from other professions. The good news is that paragon fans have suggested modifications for almost every paragon skill (see the Feedback page for pages and pages of it) so all Anet really needs to do is choose from this exhaustive list of suggestions, tweak numbers as desired and roll them out. I don't think Paragons need a complete redesign like the dervish, just a comprehensive skill update. I think the PvP concerns were overblown the first time around, but if those concerns are still considered valid then this would be the time to take advantage of the PvP/PvE split. The mesmer and dervish updates completely fixed those professions in my view, and it looks like a great deal of thought went into it. I am hoping that this will be done for paragons, and it would probably be a lot easier to accomplish.

re: the odds of this actually happening, I wouldn't care to bet on that since we have already been waiting 4 years for Anet to do right by paragons. However they did say that they were looking at it when they released the mesmer update, and dervishes got their own much-needed update last month, so I am at least a little hopeful. I think they could roll it out very quickly if they went with some of my ideas that use existing skill mechanics and number tweaks, that minimizes the work required on Anet's part. And that is a significant issue since most of their people are focused on other things.

Lanier · Mar 29, 2011, 02:19 AM // 02:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Our Virus

No matter how much everyone tries to act like they know, in still pretty sure I understand the point I'm making more than the readers. Khomet, because I know you and respect you I always take your comments into consideration. Everyone else, just keep saying hit to try to sound smart. Thankiessss

huh?

So because I disagree with you, im just "saying hit to try to sound smart"? (whatever that means...)

Paragons have so few useful energy-requiring skills, I really dont see how you can be having energy problems even in 4 person parties. One of their few good skills is blazing spear, and if you're going to use that anyway (which you should if you want to do damage), then glowing signet is an excellent energy management skill. Go for the eyes is one of the few useful support skills, and even in a small party, it still gives a good enough energy return to use the few useful energy-requiring skills. 5 en chants like anthem of weariness and anthem of flame are practically free. Finally, if for some reason you decide to run motivation skills (pretty much every non-elite in that line is underpowered so i dont know why you would...), energizing chorus is a good energy management skill.

I'm curious to know what build you are running, and what skills could possibly be costing you so much energy that you are having energy problems while running go for the eyes (and maybe glowing signet). The only useful energy intensive spear attack that I can think of is harrier's toss, and even then, I would prefer run spear of lightning or blazing spear over it any day (so if you're using it... don't, its not that good). The only moderately useful energy intensive shout that I can think of is stand your ground (I say moderately because it is still pretty bad due to its negative synergy with the most important form of defense - kiting).

I guess what I am trying to say is that almost all of the skills that you will be using as a paragon are adrenal or cost little energy, and this energy can easily be obtained by spamming gfte (no reason not to... its not like there are any better alternatives), and possibly anthem of envy or energizing chorus. Oh, and if you really need it, glowing signet is a good option since blazing spear is pretty godly in terms of single target damage and should be run on your bar often.

Of course this is all assuming you arn't using an imbagon build... in which case SY alone is sufficient for your energy management needs.