Curse

Zyph · Apr 15, 2011, 12:10 PM // 12:10

This is my build:
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Spear Mastery: 10 + 1
Command: 8 + 1
Leadership: 12 + 1 + 1
Sunspear: 8
Luxon: 4

Spear of Lightning
Spear of Fury
Anthem of Flame
"Save Yourselves!"
"There's Nothing to Fear!"
"For Great Justice"
Focused Anger (E)
Aggressive Refrain

(Yes I know it's similar to the PvXnoob Imbagon build)

I'm really not liking aggressive refrain at all and am loathing the fact that my only adrenaline skill is SY!

Any suggestions on what to shift around? I was thinking maybe Anthem of Weariness/Blazing Spear instead of Anthem of Flame/Spear of Lightning but that doesn't solve my IAS issue.

Thanks!

EDIT: I'm not sure if that code is working right, it could be gamependium's decoder is on the fritz, so I updated it with what I have.

PurpleFission · Apr 15, 2011, 01:44 PM // 13:44

then dont use it?

Sagittario · Apr 15, 2011, 01:47 PM // 13:47

You have 3 adrenalin gain support skills, but only SY!
That can't work.

HigherMinion · Apr 15, 2011, 02:24 PM // 14:24

Anthem of Envy is a must have on a command paragon, human or AI. You can take Drunken Master/alcohol or Soldier's Fury. Also, if you only have SY for adren usage, don't take Spear of Fury and use Ebsoh instead.

NuclearSlug · Apr 15, 2011, 03:09 PM // 15:09

I have found that with good heroes you really don't even need agressive refrain. However, it is usually a good idea to run another cheap adrenaline shout, like "Go For the Eyes" as its cheap and keeps your energy up. Even if you're running motivation and have no points in command, GFTE still gives like a 30% chance of critical hit. Also, for tough mobs, or if you get overwhelmed try using a rock candy. I always carry candies with me if I'm vanquishing and only use them on an "Oh Shit" basis.

wiz12268 · Apr 15, 2011, 03:10 PM // 15:10

Imba is basically a defensive build so if you want to do damage I wouldnt even consider it, the Imba build that is.

Only reason to have AR up is to auto attack faster to build up adrenaline to spam SY as much as you can. But IMO it isnt really a must have skill. Burning refrain is one I will throw in when not fighting Destroyers, and it does well.

Only other spear skill I consider is barbed spear since it is only 2 adrenaline and gives a pretty long bleed. Other than spear of fury of course.

But you only want that one adrenaline skill for the most part since that skill also give you 7 points of free energy to help run your other stuff.

With 14 points in Leadership you will get 7 points of energy back per group shout. So anthem of flames is a 2 energy profit, SY is 7 energy profit, and FGJ costs 4 points net, and TNtF costs 8 points (although you need the 15 to use it).

The build feeds off itself. SY isnt always the greatest since most high end areas have a lot of armor ignoring damage but the free 7 points of energy is where it makes up the difference. That is why you can run all those energy based skills.

Rotation is key. You dont have to use FGJ if Focused anger is up. That is basically overkill. FGJ is for when you have that small lapse in cool down of your elite mostly.

Like I said the build is basically for defense mostly. If you want to do damage I would make a completely different set up. Or play a secondary that can actually output a lot of damage :P.

Or just try stuff that you didnt read somewhere. With so many builds nowadays and the ability to use 7 heroes there arent any "perfect' set ups or teams. All good builds are going to overlap with other good builds to make the team less effective. Even some of the team build posted have overlap issues or could have other skills thrown in to make them slightly better. But even with the overlap theyre so OP that it doesnt matter.

Bottomline is that 90% of the stuff now is easily doable with just about any set up you can think of. A small percentage needs a more refined set up to do and only maybe one or two areas seem to be impossible, but mostly due to NPC AI and mechanics and not the ability to have a correct skill set up.

ErrantVenture · Apr 15, 2011, 03:33 PM // 15:33

Definitely need anthem of envy on that bar somewhere, it's massively good. If you don't like agressive refrain just take dwarven stability + booze or flurry.

wiz12268 · Apr 15, 2011, 03:49 PM // 15:49

why so many people promote anthem of envy? totally countermands the ability to keep SY up perpetually and with the right type of heroes most stuff wont be above 50% to make it even proc the added damage.

5 energy anthem of flame gives you a 2 energy net so a much better option. Only time it needs to be switched out is against destroyer heavy areas. Or a better comparison since theyre both command would be anthem of weariness which I would use before anthem of envy. And also the one I switch for anthem of flame anyway.

Mednes · Apr 15, 2011, 03:55 PM // 15:55

Bring Flail, since your dmg doesn't matter that much. And if the small duration isn't good bring Dwarven Stability and take out TNTF or Spear of Fury.
In NM (not elite areas) you can bring Frenzy, how weird it sounds...

cmcookie · Apr 15, 2011, 04:10 PM // 16:10

Flail? A 1 second IAS is a waste of adrenaline. You would be better off not using an IAS at all as opposed to wasting 4 adrenaline for 1 sec of IAS.

Haggis of Doom · Apr 15, 2011, 04:23 PM // 16:23

On a quasi-imba bar for h/h use, you have 3 IAS options:

- AR (let your heroes renew it for you)
- Soldier's Fury (prevents use of Focused Anger)
- Frenzy (your team has PS and only yourself are taking significant damage, therefore if Frenzy is a problem then your team has bigger issues)

With access to 7 heroes there isn't much reason to dislike AR. At first we had to maintain it ourselves, then AI started to use Anthem of Flame out-combat so it maintained AR, and now we can afford to fit 2x Fall Back into the team. Bring a high energy set for those weird situations where it does go down and you need the energy.

If you find yourself not needing -that- much adrenaline to maintain SY, Anthem of Envy is indeed the best choice as a second adrenal skill.

Quote:

Originally Posted by wiz12268

why so many people promote anthem of envy? totally countermands the ability to keep SY up perpetually and with the right type of heroes most stuff wont be above 50% to make it even proc the added damage.

Anthem of Envy is the best damage shout a Paragon has access to. I can totally understand that an Imbagon can have situations where he doesn't need that much adrenaline, especially if there's an Orders necro in the team with Dark Fury (very common for any para who knows what he's doing).

It works with Spirits (spirt spam = win, spirit spam + Anthem of Envy = more win), and will only be consumed when its effect is applied. So therefore unless every single enemy is <50% when you shout it, it will do its damage. Also weird that you would suggest Barbed Spear when you think your heroes kill so fast Anthem of Envy would not proc. Is 2 seconds of bleed (4 damage) on a single guy really worth it over 22 damage * a dozen procs?

By the wording of your posts, I think you're misunderstanding how adrenaline works: whenever you gain it, every skill build it up individually, and whenever you use an adrenal skill (no matter the cost), 1 adrenaline is deduced from all -other- adrenal skills. Therefore every 1 usage of Barbed Spear is as detrimental to SY's buildup as every 1 usage of Anthem of Envy, which means it's much worse due to its spammability.

Also, Imbagons don't find themselves needing energy, no need to make e-management comparisons.

Quote:

Originally Posted by cmcookie

Flail? A 1 second IAS is a waste of adrenaline. You would be better off not using an IAS at all as opposed to wasting 4 adrenaline for 1 sec of IAS.

He meant Flurry. And technically it's wasting 1 adrenaline: 4 is the cost

Mednes · Apr 15, 2011, 04:51 PM // 16:51

OMG yeah srry i meant Flurry -.-

Axel Zinfandel · Apr 15, 2011, 05:03 PM // 17:03

imbagon is simply made to maintain SY! in the most efficient way possible. there are tons of alternatives that can maintain, or come close to maintaining SY! and are more more fun to play with. SY! stuck on a physical damage dealer's bar will always more than warrant it's place, regardless of if and how efficient the rest of your build is at maintaining it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Haggis of Doom

On a quasi-imba bar for h/h use, you have 3 IAS options:

- AR (let your heroes renew it for you)
- Soldier's Fury (prevents use of Focused Anger)
- Frenzy (your team has PS and only yourself are taking significant damage, therefore if Frenzy is a problem then your team has bigger issues)

Theres also flurry, seeing as you're running a defensive bar anyway, damage isn't much of an issue. Frenzy is, I suppose, based on choice. I do not like it because it raises all damage done to you. PS doesn't solve everything, seeing as even crappy wand damage is suddenly doing more damage against you. PS+Frenzy really only helps when the damage being done to you pre-frenzy is over 10% of your health. everything else is still being increased.

So I'd much rather take a blanket -20 armor at 0 energy cost than double damage at 5en every 8s. To me that is a no brainer. If you don't like the downside of AR, you aren't going to enjoy using frenzy either.

Haggis of Doom · Apr 15, 2011, 05:11 PM // 17:11

I agree that Frenzy is less appealing as difficulty increases. However, bring Frenzy is technically similar to reducing the amount of backlines in your party: there is a point (dependent on the area) past which it's just stupid to do it, but before this point, it doesn't matter how much heals you have.

In most of PvE, I would bring Frenzy without cancel stance on my warrior. Therefore, I would also bring Frenzy on my para (except for the fact that I actually don't have a problem with AR, unlike the OP, so I bring that instead as I also consider it superior

).

Tender Care · Apr 15, 2011, 05:28 PM // 17:28

If u are playing an high-end area AR-Frenzy is not a good choice.....if u don't have any consumable for IAS u just have to drop attack speed or use Flurry...but it could cost a lot of nrg and in some places energy denial is used a lot.

Ever tried with Soldier's Stance? u play a total support paragon, but u attack faster and have 75% chance to block. Using For The Great Justice and To The Limit + spear of fury you should be able to keep SY always on...

otherwise continue using AR as most ppl do..

Xenomortis · Apr 15, 2011, 07:17 PM // 19:17

Why do you not like AR?

Mednes · Apr 15, 2011, 08:32 PM // 20:32

@Xenomortis . I think becuase of the high energy cost, -20 armor. He also might forget to use a shout to renew Agressive Refrain.

BrettM · Apr 15, 2011, 09:17 PM // 21:17

I run a Focused Anger imba bar with no AR or FGJ, and don't have any trouble with it, using Anthem of Weariness to set up Spear of Fury. One thing that helps is having a Dwayna's Order derv with Dark Fury. An alternative would be a command para hero with Anthem of Fury. I usually prefer Anthem of Weariness over Anthem of Flame because it adds more defense and all foes are subject to weakness.

Of course, if you bring at least one para hero with shouts, there's no reason not to use AR, since it's pretty much guaranteed to stay up even if you slip on your own shouts.

Zyph · Apr 15, 2011, 10:18 PM // 22:18

I think I'm just going to keep experimenting. My main beef with AR is, yeah, the energy cost. I know to keep shouts/chants up outside of battle, but sometimes you get distracted, or just aren't paying attention.... I dunno, it seems like having to have a high amount of concentration the entire time you're in an explorable area just, to me at least, puts kind of a downer on gameplay. I'm going to experiment with Flurry/Frenzy, as well as having more adrenal skills. I'll look in to getting another Paragon or /Paragon hero with additional shouts/chants.

Thanks everyone for their input so far!

Str0b0 · Apr 15, 2011, 10:31 PM // 22:31

I think it is honestly easier to just develop the habits of mind to maintain AR than to try to run Flurry or Frenzy. Once you get used to refreshing it it becomes second nature. I personally use Anthem of Weariness to maintain my AR. I also tend to use a W/P hero with Fall back and that helps. You really need the IAS in my opinion to maintain SY! like it should be maintained. Spears are just too slow, even with adrenaline increasing skills like Focused Anger and FGJ, to keep it up constantly. I have let my AR die a couple of times and the difference in adrenaline gain is noticeable and almost crippling. I tend to run Wild Throw as an additional adrenaline sink. You come across blocking stances often enough to justify it's presence on your bar since those stances also rob you of adrenaline.