Curse

Khomet Si Netjer · Dec 17, 2010, 08:55 PM // 20:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lanier

why would AR make it awkward? Ideally, it should be cast at the beginning of an area/mission and then maintained from there so that you don't have to worry about the large energy cost at all. Using Brutal weapon sounds interesting... I may give it a try.

i'm testing all of these builds solo so i have to spend 25e to activate it and i have no way of regaining energy through shouts because I have no allies. you're right, this is not an issue in 8 man teams.

FoxBat · Dec 17, 2010, 09:23 PM // 21:23

Bring 3 heroes with pets, or some defensive spirits.

Lanier · Dec 17, 2010, 09:49 PM // 21:49

Also (and this is directed at anyone reading this thread), you have to keep in mind that simply going to the master of damage isn't going to get you an accurate reading of your total dps. As a paragon, many of the attack buffs used (Anthem of Flame, Go for the eyes, Anthem of Envy) will give a slight increase to both your own and your ally's dps. Therefore, the only really accurate way to determine a para build's dps is to take yourself + the physicals you plan on having in your party and get a dps reading for all the physical chars combined. Then take each of the other physicals in your party, and get an individual dps rating for them (without the use of the player character buffs). Subtract these values from the total dps to get the actual dps of the player character.

I guess what Im trying to say is that when determining the dps of a paragon's build, you also have to take into account the extra damage that you cause your allies and party members to inflict.

I may go do a comparison test like this with my cruel spear build later on tonight, and see what i get.

Tender Care · Dec 17, 2010, 09:59 PM // 21:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Khomet Si Netjer

I tried this last night and got ~45 dps with it. It is very awkward because of the huge startup cost of Aggressive Refrain, I think it would work better with Soldier's Fury instead. I will try that tonight.

p.s. let me know when you're done studying so we can do some paraway.

Well...did u notice Sundering Weapon? That's the trick

AR is easily mantained with go for the eyes that gives you a 6 energy + it's an adrenaline based build....energy wouldn't be a problem i guess.
Same for Brutal Weapon....even if running with henchies healers you could lose benefit for they use lots of enchantments.....

PS: as i told in my thread i'm quite busy atm, so you have to be patiente for a run

Khomet Si Netjer · Dec 18, 2010, 03:36 AM // 03:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lanier

Also (and this is directed at anyone reading this thread), you have to keep in mind that simply going to the master of damage isn't going to get you an accurate reading of your total dps. As a paragon, many of the attack buffs used (Anthem of Flame, Go for the eyes, Anthem of Envy) will give a slight increase to both your own and your ally's dps. Therefore, the only really accurate way to determine a para build's dps is to take yourself + the physicals you plan on having in your party and get a dps reading for all the physical chars combined. Then take each of the other physicals in your party, and get an individual dps rating for them (without the use of the player character buffs). Subtract these values from the total dps to get the actual dps of the player character.

I guess what Im trying to say is that when determining the dps of a paragon's build, you also have to take into account the extra damage that you cause your allies and party members to inflict.

I may go do a comparison test like this with my cruel spear build later on tonight, and see what i get.

Of course that is true, if the paragon is affected by buffs (shouts, anthems, Orders, weapon spells, etc) from other characters, he will obviously do more damage. But measurements of his damage while affected by other characters are less useful because you can't tell what portion of the damage comes from the character and what portion comes from the buffing. I prefer to measure each build individually so I can see each character's individual contribution and how it compares to other builds without any additional variables to confuse things. Since many buffs affect all party members you can add such damage buffs to the base damage provided by each build and get a good idea of how they will perform in a team.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tender Care

Well...did u notice Sundering Weapon? That's the trick

AR is easily mantained with go for the eyes that gives you a 6 energy + it's an adrenaline based build....energy wouldn't be a problem i guess.
Same for Brutal Weapon....even if running with henchies healers you could lose benefit for they use lots of enchantments.....

PS: as i told in my thread i'm quite busy atm, so you have to be patiente for a run

Of course I noticed Sundering Weapon, that's the whole point of going P/Rt. I like the idea but if you are going to have sundering weapon it seems a shame not to carry Chest Thumper for spammable deep wound. Anyways I tried my best to make this build look as good as possible in this test but I cannot get higher than 49 dps with it. Sundering Weapon adds to the dps because of the armor penetration but also reduces dps because of its cast time and aftercast.

Here is what I ended up with.
P/Rt Soldier's Fury with Sundering Weapon; spear; 49dps
11+1+1 spear 5+1 command 9+1 leadership 10 communing
spear of lightning
spear of redemption
holy spear
blazing spear
go for the eyes
sundering weapon
can't touch this
soldier's fury (e)

Top spear-wielding builds so far, with revised numbers:

P/W Soldier's Fury with FGJ; spear; 60dps
12+1+1 spear 12+1 command 3+1 leadership
spear of lightning
spear of redemption
holy spear
blazing spear
go for the eyes
enduring harmony
for great justice
soldier's fury (e)

Repeated testing of this gets slightly lower dps and I have lowered it accordingly. the first two runs were a bit luckier than usual i suppose.

P/R Enraged Lunge; spear and pet; ~72dps (68-76 depending on luck)
12 beast 12+1+1 spear
Spear of Lightning
Spear of Redemption
Holy Spear
Blazing Spear
Enraged Lunge (e)
Scavenger Strike
Call of Haste
Comfort Animal

This build is optimized for pure damage, but for PvE you should lose one of the spear skills and add Otyugh's Cry to give the pet unblockability and additional armor, it's just too good to pass up. Humans should use Never Rampage Alone instead of Call of Haste and Spear of Fury instead of Spear of Lightning. Take Spear of Lighting as well if you can afford the energy cost. The key to getting maximum damage from this build is that you can activate two attack skills at the same time, one for you and one for the pet. always hit attack skills as soon as they become available, just remember not to hit more than one pet attack skill at a time, they are not queued.

Khomet Si Netjer · Dec 18, 2010, 06:19 AM // 06:19

i revised the dervish build and got it up to 62dps average.

P/D Zealous Vow and Blazing Finale; scythe; 62dps
scythe 12 leadership 10+1+1 wind 8 command 3+1

victorious sweep
mystic sweep
eremite's attack
go for the eyes
blazing finale
heart of holy flame
aura of thorns
zealous vow (e)

note that heart of holy flame and aura of thorns are not very useful in this build, i only brought them because they are long lasting enchantments that increase the damage from mystic sweep. a human player should bring Aura of Holy Might and Great Dwarf Armor instead or perhaps another PvE skill, this will increase the DPS quite a bit. Also the player can use consumables for IAS which will increase dps further. Still, 62dps for a hero (AoE dps at that) is not bad at all.

P/W Soldier's Fury, FGJ; Axe; 59-68 dps (avg ~65)
12 axe 10+1+1 leadership 8+1 command
penetrating chop
penetrating blow
executioner's strike
go for the eyes
blazing finale
enduring harmony
for great justice
soldier's fury (e)

I have created a page to hold all of the results i'm collecting so that everything is in one place.
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/User:Khomet/Paragon_DPS

Lanier · Dec 18, 2010, 04:01 PM // 16:01

So, uh, I thought Id let you know that I just now tested out my cruel spear build and I got an average dps of 61... Note that this was found with one PvE skill (Spear of Fury), but still, spear of lightning has a comperable +dmg if you wanted to use it on a hero... and still, it was an average dps of 61. This appears to be comperable to the other options that you tested, which leads me to believe that in terms of single target damage, spear dps is just fine.

My heroes were brought along (with skills disabled and on avoid combat) in order to better simulate the actual energy management.

I didn't use FGJ but I would imagine that bringing it over Tntf would increase dps further.

Khomet Si Netjer · Dec 19, 2010, 12:16 AM // 00:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lanier

So, uh, I thought Id let you know that I just now tested out my cruel spear build and I got an average dps of 61... Note that this was found with one PvE skill (Spear of Fury), but still, spear of lightning has a comperable +dmg if you wanted to use it on a hero... and still, it was an average dps of 61. This appears to be comperable to the other options that you tested, which leads me to believe that in terms of single target damage, spear dps is just fine.

No offense dude but the results are invalid because heroes cannot bring Spear of Fury... +40 damage and +6 adrenaline is pretty sweet for a spear skill, it's even better than dragon slash. :-\ Aside from that, the Soldier's Fury spear build i posted can get 61dps with no pve skills at all.

re: single target damage, the paragon can pick up an axe or sword or scythe and do more damage even though his weapon mastery is only 12 instead of 14. does that seem right to you? the weapons are not balanced.

Lanier · Dec 19, 2010, 02:10 AM // 02:10

I guess your right about the whole invalid thing, so I tested a more hero friendly build instead. Got similar numbers and results ranged between 61 and 69 average dps.

I guess you can add that to your page of calculations.

chuckles79 · Feb 11, 2011, 12:02 AM // 00:02

I did an apples to apples comparison a few months ago, and the same naysayers came out trying to say apples to apples w/o pve skills somehow don't matchup...(fail to see how).

The only class that can't out direct damage/spike a para is a necro, which has a thousand ways to inflict conditional damage and damage through minions so it's not a good comparison.

The only physical that comes close to the low AVERAGE DPS of a paragon is the ranger in a fight lasting longer than 30 sec. Even with Expertise eventually e-mgmt will drop them lower. However in the first 30 sec they can pump out more damage and the overall Avg DPS over a minute is slightly higher.

The other physical classes pump out damage that puts the para to shame, with warriors getting almost 2.5x the damage output with DragonSlash spamming.

This in itself would not matter except for the facts that without PvE only skills, one of which belongs to warriors, paras are outshown in EVERY possible way by other classes.

They can be out protted, out healed, out DPS, out spiked, out buffed, out everything.

They cannot tank, since Anet locked all warrior tanking safely behind Strength, cannot block stance (Expertise). They are not even the best spear wielders (see spear sins and imbawars).

The worst is that most of the most useful shouts and chants are in the Command line...accessible to other classes. Paragon shouts are increasingly popular ran on casters.

Paragons have great e-mgmt...as long as they are shouting with a large group...otherwise it's pitiful.

Dervishes suck because they tried to do too many things with them, rangers have been disadvantaged as anet has moved to a hex heavy strategy based meta vs conditions, and eles are stuck since scatter on AoE in HM has rendered them impotent.

Advantage to paras? Not quite. First off, Luxon/Kurzick armor req. for HoM points. NA for dervs and paras.
Number of skills (especially elites), again dervs and paras take it in the rear. Versatility of builds...paras lose BIG time.

The silver lining is that you can run any crap and probably still beat the game. I've seen some rocking P/R builds that do just fine.

However here's the final word. I've spent the bulk of my time in GW playing a para. I never have a lot of money and the chances of seeing obby armor were about 1000-1 no. I created a rit a couple of months ago, and within one week I had tripled the amount of ectos I had ever earned.

The game should not be designed so that you have to play as a certain profession to enjoy all aspects of the game.
That has been the great failure of the GW1 design and I am absolutely thrilled that Anet seems ready to leave that failure behind in the sequel.

Gabs88 · Feb 11, 2011, 12:18 AM // 00:18

Still, paragons have good attackspeed and decent range. Once the 7 hero update comes out we'll be seeing 3 paragons and maybe even a R\P or two in every single of this games teams.. It'll be the new FOTM for damage dealing

Paragons biggest downside is that they need someone else to boost their damage.

Racthoh · Feb 11, 2011, 09:05 AM // 09:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Khomet Si Netjer

re: single target damage, the paragon can pick up an axe or sword or scythe and do more damage even though his weapon mastery is only 12 instead of 14. does that seem right to you? the weapons are not balanced.

A melee character running between targets is doing 0 DPS. Melee characters are generally the first target for AI to throw their physical hate hexes and conditions. Melee characters are more susceptible to damage loss through blocks as they can't simply change targets while a block enchantment/stance/etc wears off. Melee characters have to deal with bodyblocking, ranged can quarter-step attack something in range while they get into range for a target out of sight or up a hill.

I am in no way familiar with the damage numbers characters are capable of nowadays but the only one I would be concerned about is against a Ranger, but a Ranger can't pack the kind of utility I'm bringing a Paragon along for anyway so it doesn't matter. Unless you're balling enemies up to be AoEd down there is no need to concern yourself with the numbers the master of damage is yelling out. The only number you might be concerned about on the master of damage, to be frank, is when death occurred; killing one or two targets in any mob essentially means all of the threats are dead and you win.

Khomet Si Netjer · Feb 11, 2011, 08:42 PM // 20:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Racthoh

A melee character running between targets is doing 0 DPS. Melee characters are generally the first target for AI to throw their physical hate hexes and conditions. Melee characters are more susceptible to damage loss through blocks as they can't simply change targets while a block enchantment/stance/etc wears off. Melee characters have to deal with bodyblocking, ranged can quarter-step attack something in range while they get into range for a target out of sight or up a hill.

I am in no way familiar with the damage numbers characters are capable of nowadays but the only one I would be concerned about is against a Ranger, but a Ranger can't pack the kind of utility I'm bringing a Paragon along for anyway so it doesn't matter. Unless you're balling enemies up to be AoEd down there is no need to concern yourself with the numbers the master of damage is yelling out. The only number you might be concerned about on the master of damage, to be frank, is when death occurred; killing one or two targets in any mob essentially means all of the threats are dead and you win.

Hey Racthoh... welcome back!

I agree with you re: kiting and snaring and such, people tend to overestimate melee effectiveness because of this. However paragons and rangers will get almost all of the physical hate that melee characters get because they are all physical attackers. I remember running through Shards of Orr with you and we both got plenty of blind on us. I think the AI generally makes this decision based on what weapon the character is holding rather than choosing based on profession.

re: current damage numbers, I have compiled a list of common configurations that one might use. My research was to explore the capability of various weapons on a paragon primary with the hypothesis that spear damage is inferior to all other weapons. And as you can see from the data this hypothesis is borne out pretty well, without even considering AoE damage that all other weapons can give you. :-\

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/User:Khomet/Paragon_DPS

juventas · Feb 13, 2011, 06:30 PM // 18:30

That's just hero dps, right? I haven't done any testing, but just by initial impression that 6 spirits with painful bond has higher damage output than anything.

Khomet Si Netjer · Feb 14, 2011, 11:42 AM // 11:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by juventas

That's just hero dps, right? I haven't done any testing, but just by initial impression that 6 spirits with painful bond has higher damage output than anything.

Yeah the comparisons were done with hero builds (no pve skills), and the Signet of Spirits build was a P/Rt... Rt/x can do better.

It's also possible that the build I used was sub-optimal in some way but I think those numbers are a decent place to start.

Kaida the Heartless · Mar 06, 2011, 01:40 AM // 01:40

I think Racthoh pretty much hit the nail on the head.

The Para wasn't ever intended to be a full-on DPS char. I'm not sure what conclusions you are trying to reach.

LifeInfusion · Mar 06, 2011, 02:35 AM // 02:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Khomet Si Netjer

Allright here are some results that I gathered myself, since no one else seems inclined to post hard numbers.

P/any with spear (soldiers fury): ~42dps
P/E with spear (soldier's fury, conjure flame): ~57dps
P/D with scythe (zealous vow): ~52dps, no IAS
P/A with daggers (soldier's fury, golden/ff/db): ~43dps, energy problems
P/R with bow (prepared shot, read the wind): ~40dps, energy problems, no IAS
P/R with spear and pet (enraged lunge): ~63dps, no IAS
P/W with sword (dragon slash, FGJ): ~69dps, not sustainable
P/W with axe (cleave, FGJ): ~56dps, not sustainable
P/Rt with spear (SoS, painful bond, etc): ~68dps

Sword/axe/hammer/scythe have ~40DPS on 33% IAS. Dropping Soldier's Fury for Frenzy/Flail would mean spear does more because you can slot Cruel Spear/Stunning Strike/other +damage elite or whatever. (axe = 40dps,sword = 40dps,hammer = 45dps with 13 str, 16mastery, see http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/w...t10326347.html or http://img59.imageshack.us/img59/966...ondamagera.jpg)

The only thing is that warrior weapon skills exceed the +20-30 of Paragon's attack bonuses (Cruel Spear/Wearying Spear are exceptions, and Blazing Spear is burning) and have AOES (well only hundred blades and whirlwind attack for swords... the former is lame without MoP or barbs).

Now that scythe damage got nerfed, I'd venture to say Paragons are in a decent spot, except for the Motivation line and some Leadership/command skills that cost 10 energy and are returning 1.

Paragons don't have AOE, but they're a support class and advertised as such (unlike eles).

I support Paragon buffs to motivation and some of the skills in Command ("Find their weakness is 10 energy =9 energy per use...on paragon) but slapping on more damage is not the way to buff paragons.

edit:...as a side note why the bumping?

Rites · Mar 06, 2011, 02:53 AM // 02:53

lmao

seriously another thread trying to depict paras as frontliner?

no offense khomet, but how many times must you be reminded that the role of a paragon is support?

Khomet Si Netjer · Mar 07, 2011, 05:25 PM // 17:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaida the Heartless

I think Racthoh pretty much hit the nail on the head.

The Para wasn't ever intended to be a full-on DPS char. I'm not sure what conclusions you are trying to reach.

You totally misunderstood what Racthoh was saying... which is that time-to-death is all that matters. Paragons have several forms of ranged deep wound so they are pretty decent at killing single targets. However they are vastly inferior to other characters in typical usage since they have no way to inflict AoE damage, unlike warriors, dervs, sins, and rangers.

Yes, paragons can use Splinter Weapon for some AoE damage... but even so, the other professions get much more benefit from it.

Khomet Si Netjer · Mar 07, 2011, 05:45 PM // 17:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by LifeInfusion

Sword/axe/hammer/scythe have ~40DPS on 33% IAS. Dropping Soldier's Fury for Frenzy/Flail would mean spear does more because you can slot Cruel Spear/Stunning Strike/other +damage elite or whatever. (axe = 40dps,sword = 40dps,hammer = 45dps with 13 str, 16mastery, see http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/w...t10326347.html or http://img59.imageshack.us/img59/966...ondamagera.jpg)

The only thing is that warrior weapon skills exceed the +20-30 of Paragon's attack bonuses (Cruel Spear/Wearying Spear are exceptions, and Blazing Spear is burning) and have AOES (well only hundred blades and whirlwind attack for swords... the former is lame without MoP or barbs).

Now that scythe damage got nerfed, I'd venture to say Paragons are in a decent spot, except for the Motivation line and some Leadership/command skills that cost 10 energy and are returning 1.

Paragons don't have AOE, but they're a support class and advertised as such (unlike eles).

I support Paragon buffs to motivation and some of the skills in Command ("Find their weakness is 10 energy =9 energy per use...on paragon) but slapping on more damage is not the way to buff paragons.

edit:...as a side note why the bumping?

Those numbers are all wrong, we don't care what the auto-attack DPS is... damage comparisons must include attack skills, and this is what I have done. If a P/W with a sword can give 69DPS you can be assured that a Warrior can deliver more, he will have the advantage of higher Swordsmanship and additional damage because of Strength.

The fact is that a Paragon with 14+ spear and suitable attack skills is *still* doing less damage than he would do with any other weapon. Bows give slightly less damage than spear vs. single targets and much more if you can hit multiple targets. This is clearly shown by the data I have collected.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rites

lmao

seriously another thread trying to depict paras as frontliner?

no offense khomet, but how many times must you be reminded that the role of a paragon is support?

I would have thought that you would reconsider this point of view after the negative response you received in this thread (http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/w...t10471795.html). I think it's time to put these fallacies to rest.

You seem to think that all groups must rely on "frontliners" (I assume you mean melee) to do damage, and all other professions exist only to support the frontliners. This is incorrect and certainly does not cover every playstyle. If I have a group full of casters, where is my frontline? If I use a group full of paragons or rangers, where is the frontline? Melee are good at what they do but they are not necessary for a successful team, and you should stop assuming that they are.

Furthermore, paragons have Warrior-level armor (80), and along with Warriors they are the only profession that uses shields, and until very recently they were also the only non-warrior profession to use adrenaline. Paragons have a weapon which causes good single-target damage at range, and Paragons have more ways to cause deep wound than *ANY* profession except Warrior. Clearly they were meant to do damage and kill things whether you believe this or not. In addition, other "SUPPORT" characters (in your terminology) are able to deliver great damage as well as great support. (example: SoS ritualist with Splinter Weapon, SS necro with Mark of Pain, RoJ monk with Strength of Honor). There is no reason for paragons to be weak because they are a so-called "support" profession... these other professions are "support" as well, and their skills are much better than what the paragon has to work with.

Lastly, Guild Wars 2 will not have any dedicated healers and thus no "backline" as you put it. Characters will need to stand on their own and be able to deal damage and support others without being forced into specific roles in the way you are suggesting. When Guild Wars 2 is released these misconceptions will be laid to rest once and for all.