Curse

Khomet Si Netjer · May 13, 2011, 02:58 PM // 14:58

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Signet_of_aggression

Signet of Aggression. 1s, 5r
Gain 2 adrenaline if you are affected by a shout or chant.

this skill always seemed lackluster to me... it works, but it is usually not worth a skill slot unless you are running Focused Anger. by way of contrast, the warrior and dervish have shouts, stances, or attack skills that allow them to gain adrenaline instantly or while attacking, as opposed to Signet of Aggression which has an activation time. With the activation time + aftercast you might as well gain adrenaline through attacking instead of wasting time with signet of aggression.

so with this in mind... any ideas on how to fix it? perhaps the answer is simply to remove activation time, but then recharge would need to be increased.

i'll suggest the following to start...
Signet of Aggression. 1/4s, 5r
Gain 1 strike of adrenaline. Gain an additional strike of adrenaline if you are affected by a shout or chant.

LifeInfusion · May 13, 2011, 04:01 PM // 16:01

It's for keeping adrenaline up between battles (better with Focused Anger /FGJ! as you said). There's no real other use other than if you can't hit things due to blind/miss hex. Oh wait, there's aftercast. So you gain nothing additional compared to attacking unless you can't hit.

IMO it ought to have a conditional and attribute link if it has aftercast.

For example:
Signet of Aggression. 1/4s, 5r [Leadership]/[Motivation]...anything not Command/spear
Gain 1 strike of adrenaline. Gain an additional strike of adrenaline if you are affected by a shout or chant and an additional 0...2 adrenaline the next time you activate a chant with an attack skill.

Problem is it would make "Make Your Time!" and "To the Limit!" look terrible. So perhaps 0...2 additional adrenaline is overkill considering the recharge. Maybe 0...1 instead, but if we follow "To the Limit!", then roughly 6recharge with 0...2 adrenaline gain is fine.

RedDog91 · May 13, 2011, 04:24 PM // 16:24

Combine with Anthem of Flame and it allows you to charge all your adrenaline skills before the battle even starts by just spamming the two skills on recharge. Now you have access to all your skills and you can set things on fire with them. Enjoy.

Khomet Si Netjer · May 13, 2011, 05:07 PM // 17:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by RedDog91

Combine with Anthem of Flame and it allows you to charge all your adrenaline skills before the battle even starts by just spamming the two skills on recharge. Now you have access to all your skills and you can set things on fire with them. Enjoy.

That's true, but a warrior can use enraging charge + for great justice and get 8 adrenaline instantly, and double adrenaline from FGJ after that. I think the main problem with this skill is too much time investment for what you get out of it. If it gave double the adrenaline (4) but took twice as long to recharge (10s) it would work better because the paragon would not waste as much time activating it.

Lanier · May 13, 2011, 06:12 PM // 18:12

Signet of Aggression is really bad. Sure you can use it to charge adrenaline before battle... but you can only do it 2 adrenaline at a time every 5 seconds (and while under a shout). This means you have to wait 15 seconds before a battle to reach blazing spear's adrenal cost or 20 seconds if you want to get one of the useful high adrenaline skills like cruel spear (25 sec for stunning strike...)

What I would like is for it to be an adrenal booster similar to for great justice or natural temper (at least how natural temper should have been).

Signet of Aggression - 1 sec cast, 35 sec recharge
For the next 20 seconds, you gain adrenaline twice as fast while under the effects of a shout.

RedDog91 · May 13, 2011, 06:18 PM // 18:18

P/W
use "For Great Justice!"
use signet of aggression
now you get 4 adrenaline every 5 seconds, which is pretty much equivalent to what you would get if you attacked something for 5 seconds (no IAS).

_Aphotic_ · May 13, 2011, 10:09 PM // 22:09

I'm gonna go out on a tangent here just to be radical with ideas-
Signet of Aggression
3/4s activation, 10s recharge
You gain one strike of adrenaline. All enemies within earshot's aggravation levels are reset. For 10 seconds, you have -100 health (minimum 55 health) and gain double adrenaline when you are the target of a physical attack.

Flame away?

Kunder · May 14, 2011, 12:28 AM // 00:28

Use at end of battle when you are still sitting on ~4 adren average and the last enemy just died. Use it again right before the next battle. Instant SY and/or spear skills. Its not amazing, but thats only because PvE revolves around 5-10 imba skills for each profession nowadays.

KotCR · May 14, 2011, 08:33 AM // 08:33

Agreed, it's really bad. So far it's only purpose really is to keep Save Yourselves powered in areas with lots of dodging/blocking and a tonne of blind and attack accuracy reduction hexes, if your team has been silly enough to not bring enchantment removal, condition/hex removal, or rigor mortis/stance removal.

There's other more practical options availiable for keeping the Paragon adrenaline levels maintained between battles anyway (even if a couple of them are lacklustre). Besides, unless you go AFK you'll probably be dashing around the map under Fall Back and there won't be that much downtime between battles anyway.

Between either FGJ/Focused Anger/Soldier's Fury/Anthem of Fury and Spear of Fury, you can instantly charge your adrenaline to full upon entering a battle anyway.

Lanier · May 14, 2011, 04:39 PM // 16:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by RedDog91

P/W
use "For Great Justice!"
use signet of aggression
now you get 4 adrenaline every 5 seconds, which is pretty much equivalent to what you would get if you attacked something for 5 seconds (no IAS).

why wouldnt you use an IAS?

Plus, that requires the use of 2 skills to waste 10 seconds before a battle charging adrenaline. I would far rather a more practical, mid-battle use for signet of aggression.

Bandwagon · May 14, 2011, 11:25 PM // 23:25

For the amount of attribute pts you invest, signet of aggression is fine as is from a design stand point, it quickly recharges, grants a resource that the primary uses (Adrenaline) and requires a mechanic that the primary can provide (shout/chant).

If you want to propose ideas to fix the skill go right ahead. IMO, its not helping anyone's play experience, changing one or two skills isn't going to suddenly make the P/ primary new or interesting and making dartboard skill suggestions isn't going to help either.

{steps off soap box}

Signet of Aggression

Leadership
<Signet of Suffering Cast time> (no cast time, but it has an aftercast)
10 Second Recharge
For 1-15 seconds you gain 1 adrenaline whenever you use a paragon chant or shout.

Notes: Counters the adrenaline strike loss that you receive when you use a non adrenaline attack skill. And makes it so that you can gain adrenaline even while casting chants.

Khomet Si Netjer · May 16, 2011, 04:34 PM // 16:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bandwagon

For the amount of attribute pts you invest, signet of aggression is fine as is from a design stand point, it quickly recharges, grants a resource that the primary uses (Adrenaline) and requires a mechanic that the primary can provide (shout/chant).

If you want to propose ideas to fix the skill go right ahead. IMO, its not helping anyone's play experience, changing one or two skills isn't going to suddenly make the P/ primary new or interesting and making dartboard skill suggestions isn't going to help either.

I have a huge list of skill suggestions but Anet appears to be ignoring everyone's suggestions even though it is apparent to all that paragons and rangers need some attention. I haven't quite figured out how to improved Signet of Aggression yet which is why I was asking for advice here.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bandwagon

Signet of Aggression

Leadership
<Signet of Suffering Cast time> (no cast time, but it has an aftercast)
10 Second Recharge
For 1-15 seconds you gain 1 adrenaline whenever you use a paragon chant or shout.

Notes: Counters the adrenaline strike loss that you receive when you use a non adrenaline attack skill. And makes it so that you can gain adrenaline even while casting chants.

This is interesting, definitely a different feel to the skill. One good feature of the original skill is that it gives you adrenaline when you need it, and it allows you to maintain adrenaline outside of battle. This version seems more like an adrenaline booster like Focused Anger or Dark Fury rather than straight adrenaline gain.

What do you think about the following:
Signet of Aggression. 1s, 10r
Gain 2 strikes of adrenaline, and gain an additional 2 strikes of adrenaline if you are affected by a shout or chant.

this version works whether you are affected by a shout or not (though it works twice as well if you are) and also reduces the time wasted using the signet. compared to the original, the effect is doubled, and the recharge time is also doubled.

KotCR · May 16, 2011, 09:56 PM // 21:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bandwagon

Signet of Aggression
Leadership
<Signet of Suffering Cast time> (no cast time, but it has an aftercast)
10 Second Recharge
For 1-15 seconds you gain 1 adrenaline whenever you use a paragon chant or shout..

I like this. Makes sense with the name too (Aggressive shouting FTW, now he's angry!).
Would help Motigons a fair bit too, considering all their expensive (and long casting) Chants, losing adrenaline from not attacking round the clock can hurt their E-Management quite a bit, especially in smaller party areas. This would help balance that, as they'd still be gaining Adrenaline while throwing up their Chants.

Our Virus · May 17, 2011, 01:27 AM // 01:27

Signet of Aggression, instant cast with 30 sec recharge.
Next 0...12 attacks give plus 0..2 adrnl. Scales with leadership ofc, don't wanna make dervs more op.

To me my version seems maybe a little too good bc u can spam spear attacks for some time, but with higher leadership then your spear will be lower, plus 30 sec is a long time.

KotCR · May 17, 2011, 01:44 PM // 13:44

That's basically what For Great Justice already does though (though FGJ will help you out with non-auto-attack sources of adrenaline too).

Plus, it would lose it's out of battle utility for maintaining adrenaline levels then too (as you'd need to attack), Bandwagon's suggestion however maintains that utility while actually making it useful in combat too.

Bobby Sox · May 27, 2011, 04:34 AM // 04:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Khomet Si Netjer

What do you think about the following:
Signet of Aggression. 1s, 10r
Gain 2 strikes of adrenaline, and gain an additional 2 strikes of adrenaline if you are affected by a shout or chant.

It's an improvement, for sure. As you said, the trouble with the skill in it's current capacity is the time involved casting and waiting to get a noticable benefit. Reducing the overall wait would be helpful. Overall, though, I think I like Bandwagon's suggestion more (unless, of course, "Make Your Time!" was instead changed to that sort of function).

That said, my one concern with Bandwagon's version of the skill is it's application with "The Power is Yours!" in PvP. Do you think that would be too much of a benefit to the Paragon (assuming TPiY was left in it's current function)?

Bandwagon · May 27, 2011, 04:21 PM // 16:21

I forgot this topic existed lol.

The problem I have with Sig of Aggression in its current form is that it basically just gives adrenaline, now FGJ! does that as well but it has 4/9 uptime and requires the user to actually use adrenaline increasing methods in order to gain any use from the effect. Signet of Aggression is just a straight up improvement in one's quality of life. There is no real player interaction, besides the shout or chant requirement.

ASIDE: This is why I like skills like Frenzy and Aggressive Refrain, the player needs to use the skills, they have obvious disadvantages that you need to overcome through skillful gameplay (Frenzy), and/or you need to continue doing what your prof does (Aggressive Refrain) in order to derive a benefit. Compare this to Overpowered Bullsh!t like Heart of Rage which requires little forethought or execution to use the skill.

Aggressive Refrain is dumb in a lot of other ways but that is not the point of the thread or my post. END ASIDE

In my eyes a skill that offers a quality of life improvement does not warrant 1/8 of your skill bar. Especially since its effect is so easily replicated by an IAS. Now Sig of Aggression requires the player to be under a shout or chant in order to gain any benefit, but the benefit is so "meh" and uninteresting in my mind that an overhaul is in order.

Rather then keeping to the original design of the skill I figure there must be a better way to improve the skill (making it possibly useful in a build) by changing its functionality as a pose to just buffing the numbers a bit.

Khomet Si Netjer · May 27, 2011, 11:16 PM // 23:16

@bandwagon:
i like your suggestion and i am going to put it on my suggestions page along with the other one. i hope anet uses one of them but after waiting for so long i've almost given up hope.

one advantage of the old version compared to this one is that it gave you adrenaline even when you had none, and also had synergy with lyric of zeal and lyric of purity. this version might make it difficult to get enough adrenaline for adrenaline shouts (e.g. save yourselves) in places where you are blinded, hexed, blocked, or otherwise can't hit anything to gain adrenaline through normal means. all of the non-adrenaline chants and shouts have (very) long recharge so they won't be of much help.

i like your way of thinking; thank you for sharing this idea.

@bobbysox: i think you may have pointed out a balance problem with this skill, imagine the energy gain from a build with this and tpiy and gfte. without it, you charge the shouts in 4 hits and can use both within 5s, and twice within 10s. with this you'll be able to use tpiy/gfte at seconds 4,6,8,10 gaining at least 8 adrenaline vs the current sig of aggression's gain of 4 in the same amount of time. could be an issue.