Curse

spandexninja · Jul 31, 2011, 06:03 AM // 06:03

This is from a solo player 7hero party point of view, aimed at hard mode missions and vanquishing.

What advantage does an imbagon hold over a R/W (barrage spam) Save Yourselves spammer?

The way I see it with my inexperienced nooby eyes, the ranger can keep Save Yourselves up as much as an imbagon can... except the ranger can, more often than not, have enough adrenaline to cast Save Yourselves after the first barrage. It also seems that the ranger can, on average, produce more adrenalin per second than the imbagon even though the ranger only can only have 2x adrenalin 50% of the time (For Great Justice) compared to the paragon's 100% of the time (FGJ + FA). In addition to this, a ranger does much more dps than an imbagon. Running the standard 7 caster hero party will result in splinter weapon being cast on the ranger on every cooldown and cause extremely high armor ignoring damage.

The advantages I see with the imbagon are the lack of reliance on enemies grouping up (but even with just 2 adjacent targets and 1x adrenaline gain, the ranger produces more adrenaline/second), and the PVE skill 'There is Nothing to Fear'. However, there are often many adjacent targets in the beginning of a fight (when SY is most needed) and TINTF seems negligible when you already have +100 armor.

To me, it seems that a barrage ranger spamming 'Save Yourselves' is a much better support (mainly because of splinter weapon + barrage damage and faster adrenaline gain) than the imbagon. Am I wrong? Please tell me if I have missed something or if I am mistaken.

P.S. http://www.gwpvx.com/Build:P/W_Imbagon This is the build I've been using

Zodiac Meteor · Jul 31, 2011, 06:25 AM // 06:25

Your right.

Quote:

rangers produce more adrenalin per second than the imbagon even though the ranger only can only have 2x adrenalin 50% of the time

Pretty much the only problem there.

Wota Assassin is beast with SY! as well.

Califorun · Jul 31, 2011, 06:37 AM // 06:37

Barrage ranger might be able to gain a lot of adrenaline at times and spam "Save Yourselves!" in certain situations, but the imbagon can reliably upkeep "Save Yourselves!" 100% of the time on the whole party in addition to the sunspear skill "There's Nothing to Fear!" for great party-wide defense. Paragons also bring other utility to the table with their anthems, other shouts, and resurrection.

Barrage ranger is still good and it certainly does a lot of damage, but if you're looking for some serious party-wide defense and incoming damage mitigation then an imbagon is the way to go (and/or an ST rit!)

Bristlebane · Jul 31, 2011, 07:57 AM // 07:57

Barrage ranger would need more e-management I believe.
Although Barrage + Save Yourselves! + Great Dwarf Weapon can be fun.

Venganza · Jul 31, 2011, 10:50 AM // 10:50

Solo+7 hero PvE?

Ranger totally sucks as frontline, which is what you are forced with in that scenario, whereas an imba will effortlessly handle it and keep a party alive.

I can romp effortlessly through most dungeons with heroes using a basic imba bar, if I tried that on my ranger (much as I love him) I would party wipe with the same heroes (or others).

HigherMinion · Jul 31, 2011, 11:30 AM // 11:30

imbagon is quite weak really for SY spamming; the advantage is just, if you're a REALLY bad player, you have TNTF aswell.

Venganza · Jul 31, 2011, 12:21 PM // 12:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by HigherMinion

imbagon is quite weak really for SY spamming

Up virtually 100% of the time is weak?

Maybe you should play imba for a bit and learn a little.

HigherMinion · Jul 31, 2011, 12:41 PM // 12:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Venganza

Up virtually 100% of the time is weak?

Maybe you should play imba for a bit and learn a little.

And this is why.

Kunder · Jul 31, 2011, 01:16 PM // 13:16

Bad Pugs think TNtF is much, much better than it actually is. Any class can keep up SY just fine, and any ranged one will be as good or better than paragon.

That is all.

/endthread.

KotCR · Jul 31, 2011, 02:11 PM // 14:11

TntF is incredibly good if you don't have a ST Communing Rt in the team, as it'll reduce the damage from armour ignoring attacks aswell (Save Yourselves won't), and there is quite a few places were enemies like to spam Energy Surge, for example.

But if you have a ST Communing Rt, then TntF is certainly alot less beneficial seems you'll be fulfilling is purpose with Shelter spam anyway then.

Of course, having the two doesn't hurt much either, though.

Coast · Jul 31, 2011, 02:28 PM // 14:28

i keep up tntf on my necro,

Kunder · Jul 31, 2011, 03:03 PM // 15:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by KotCR

TntF is incredibly good if you don't have a ST Communing Rt in the team, as it'll reduce the damage from armour ignoring attacks aswell (Save Yourselves won't), and there is quite a few places were enemies like to spam Energy Surge, for example.

But if you have a ST Communing Rt, then TntF is certainly alot less beneficial seems you'll be fulfilling is purpose with Shelter spam anyway then.

Of course, having the two doesn't hurt much either, though.

Other (better) ways to beat energy surge spikes:

- Have team mildly spread out so that it hits at max 2 or 3 easily healable people.
- Pre prot with Prot spirit.

Yeah, TNtF is pretty much worthless unless you are playing badly in the first place. If it had 100% uptime I would argue it would be somewhat worthwhile, but as it is you are pretty much always better off taking other more valuable PvE skills in its place.

_Aphotic_ · Jul 31, 2011, 03:33 PM // 15:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kunder

Other (better) ways to beat energy surge spikes:

- Have team mildly spread out so that it hits at max 2 or 3 easily healable people.
- Pre prot with Prot spirit.

Yeah, TNtF is pretty much worthless unless you are playing badly in the first place. If it had 100% uptime I would argue it would be somewhat worthwhile, but as it is you are pretty much always better off taking other more valuable PvE skills in its place.

But why go through all that work...?
With TNTF, you only need to press one button and you are saved as opposed to thinking too hard about the game.

Bobby Sox · Jul 31, 2011, 04:08 PM // 16:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coast

i keep up tntf on my necro,

I do hope you mean SY, not TNtF. Otherwise, do tell how you get it to last more than 4 seconds on a N/P!

Quote:

Originally Posted by spandexninja

the ranger only can only have 2x adrenalin 50% of the time (For Great Justice) compared to the paragon's 100% of the time (FGJ + FA)...The advantages I see with the imbagon are the lack of reliance on enemies grouping up...and the PVE skill 'There is Nothing to Fear'.

As to the initial Ranger vs Paragon debate, you just hit on 3 of the 4 largest issues right there, the 4th being energy.

First of all, Barrage only hits adjacent targets, so you must have balled up enemies to be sure of gaining that adrenaline during the downtime of "For Great Justice!"

To keep SY up 100% of the time in a fight, the Paragon must hit 4 times within 6 seconds throughout the fight, which can be done without IAS (4 x 1.33 = 5.32 seconds). This allows a margin of safety if you don't happen to hit SY the exact millisecond that it recharges and even allows for a miss now and again should you throw in some IAS.

For the Ranger, for 20 seconds out of every 45, you would also need to hit 4 times within the same 6 seconds (which is easy enough to do with either Barrage or, heck, normal attack with enough IAS). For the other 25 seconds, however, you must hit 8 times within those 6 seconds. That requires hitting about 3 enemies each time you press the Barrage key (remember the 1 second recharge on Barrage). Doable, but it allows no room for overlap unless you help things along with an IAS or more enemies ball up, requiring fewer than 3 Barrages.

Secondly, TNtF is not the showstopper that SY is, but an additional 35% damage reduction for the whole team (including the Paragon), 50% of the time, plus a party-wide heal every 20 seconds is a nice add-on that the Ranger just couldn't provide.

Finally, energy. Almost no energy must be expended to keep everyone safe as a Paragon, beyond the 2 adrenaline-gaining skills. For the extra IAS of Aggressive Refrain and a margin of error, a shout affecting the Paragon ending once every 20 seconds or so is also needed, which TNtF can also fill the role of. In the meanwhile, the Paragon should be gaining 6 energy every 4 seconds by spamming SY. This allows for extra energy for whatever additional support/damage skills you want to take along.

For the Ranger, 2 energy per Barrage plus the occational 5 energy for FGJ pretty much uses up the Ranger's energy regeneration. If you throw in an IAS available to you, you must expend more energy. Expertise only reduces energy amounts spent, it doesn't provide any net gain like Leadership does with many shouts and chants. So unelss you have a Zealous bow (another conditional, which also means you must not miss/be blocked too many times to make up for the -1 energy regeneration) or a party member with some sort of energy gain skill for you, you end up with a net loss. Over a few cycles, things start to slow down while you try to maintain energy, and you begin to lose ground.

Don't get me wrong, Rangers are good for SY spamming, and can be an asset to the team. They are especially great early in the fight, as you mentioned. The main difference, though, is that the bow-wielding Ranger is reliant on more circumstances than the Paragon and thus not as guaranteed to be able to upkeep SY constantly.

KotCR · Jul 31, 2011, 04:11 PM // 16:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by _Aphotic_

But why go through all that work...?
With TNTF, you only need to press one button and you are saved as opposed to thinking too hard about the game.

THIS.

I mean could faff around with flagging my heroes and henchies apart, carefully pulling, Prot Spirit+SoA tanking, then nuke them all. Afterall, that's what I have to do with my Warrior.

But with my Paragon, I can just throw up TNtF, charge in, kill all enemies, and the job done. Much faster, much more convinient.

Plus, there is some places there isn't actually room to effectively spread your team out (the gulley in Catacombs of Kathandrax comes to mind), and if you do screw up your pull, you'll find everybody in your team under attack, so it certainly helps there - gotta account for occasionally bad AI (or simply bad players if you are in a PuG) too afterall.

Let's not forget, it's also a mild party heal too, and a shout, so it will trigger Finales and refresh Echos. It's fairly long-lasting too, so it can be used to power "Soldier's" skills.

Kunder · Jul 31, 2011, 05:05 PM // 17:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by KotCR

THIS.

I mean could faff around with flagging my heroes and henchies apart, carefully pulling, Prot Spirit+SoA tanking, then nuke them all. Afterall, that's what I have to do with my Warrior.

But with my Paragon, I can just throw up TNtF, charge in, kill all enemies, and the job done. Much faster, much more convinient.

Plus, there is some places there isn't actually room to effectively spread your team out (the gulley in Catacombs of Kathandrax comes to mind), and if you do screw up your pull, you'll find everybody in your team under attack, so it certainly helps there - gotta account for occasionally bad AI (or simply bad players if you are in a PuG) too afterall.

Let's not forget, it's also a mild party heal too, and a shout, so it will trigger Finales and refresh Echos. It's fairly long-lasting too, so it can be used to power "Soldier's" skills.

FYI, I'm 70% sure that aphotic was being sarcastic there...

When I play ranger I hardly do anything but run straight into enemies. My party catches up 2s later after everything wasted its initial spike on my PSed ass and then wipes the floor with them. Playing as a paragon means you have to play significantly slower and more careful because your damage output is significantly lower.

Quote:

First of all, Barrage only hits adjacent targets, so you must have balled up enemies to be sure of gaining that adrenaline during the downtime of "For Great Justice!"

To keep SY up 100% of the time in a fight, the Paragon must hit 4 times within 6 seconds throughout the fight, which can be done without IAS (4 x 1.33 = 5.32 seconds). This allows a margin of safety if you don't happen to hit SY the exact millisecond that it recharges and even allows for a miss now and again should you throw in some IAS.

For the Ranger, for 20 seconds out of every 45, you would also need to hit 4 times within the same 6 seconds (which is easy enough to do with either Barrage or, heck, normal attack with enough IAS). For the other 25 seconds, however, you must hit 8 times within those 6 seconds. That requires hitting about 3 enemies each time you press the Barrage key (remember the 1 second recharge on Barrage). Doable, but it allows no room for overlap unless you help things along with an IAS or more enemies ball up, requiring fewer than 3 Barrages.

Balling enemies is hard? I can't go into a battle without at least 2 or 3 enemies standing next to each other by pure luck. BTW, the fact that your ranger actually outputs damage rather then pew pew spears means that enemies die quicker which makes you safer. Also, 100% FGJ is hardly needed it all, if any battles are taking more than 20s then its a failure of your team to kill them, not of yourself protting them. For most PvE battles you don't even need SY, its just wasted space on the bar.

Quote:

Secondly, TNtF is not the showstopper that SY is, but an additional 35% damage reduction for the whole team (including the Paragon), 50% of the time, plus a party-wide heal every 20 seconds is a nice add-on that the Ranger just couldn't provide.

Problem is that 90% of PvE damage is armor affected, and reducing an extra 6% damage is laughable. The only time armor ignoring damage is actually dangerous is the initial spike when you aggro ES mesmers or the like, and there other prot is far more effective.

Rangers protect the party by actually dealing damage. Its pretty much standard PvE doctrine that killing things faster is the best defense. Granted rangers are far from the height of PvE damage output, but on any physical build Splinter Weapon and/or Mark of Pain are what deals 90% of the damage anyways, and paragons can't abuse those.

Quote:

Finally, energy. Almost no energy must be expended to keep everyone safe as a Paragon, beyond the 2 adrenaline-gaining skills. For the extra IAS of Aggressive Refrain and a margin of error, a shout affecting the Paragon ending once every 20 seconds or so is also needed, which TNtF can also fill the role of. In the meanwhile, the Paragon should be gaining 6 energy every 4 seconds by spamming SY. This allows for extra energy for whatever additional support/damage skills you want to take along.

For the Ranger, 2 energy per Barrage plus the occational 5 energy for FGJ pretty much uses up the Ranger's energy regeneration. If you throw in an IAS available to you, you must expend more energy. Expertise only reduces energy amounts spent, it doesn't provide any net gain like Leadership does with many shouts and chants. So unelss you have a Zealous bow (another conditional, which also means you must not miss/be blocked too many times to make up for the -1 energy regeneration) or a party member with some sort of energy gain skill for you, you end up with a net loss. Over a few cycles, things start to slow down while you try to maintain energy, and you begin to lose ground.

lolwut? Needing to use a zealous bow to regain energy is somehow a bad thing? Look, if enemies are spamming block prots then Rangers and Paragons fail horribly at SY no matter what. Otherwise, rangers can easily pump out Barrage/FGJ and have more than enough energy left over for other expensive skills like EBSoH.

Certainly, everything is a tradeoff. But R/W pumps out 200-300% of the damage P/W does while protting 90-95% as well, depending on the area. Obviously better build is obvious.

Chthon · Jul 31, 2011, 07:52 PM // 19:52

A *proper* imbagon bar has 100% uptime on SY! plus TNtF.
A barrage ranger has no realistic hope of 100% uptime on SY!.

Both are located in the midline, where SY! is likely to cover all of the squishies.

A barrage ranger does middling/borderline-passable damage (as compared to a melee) if you buff it with EBsoH (should be included in the build), Orders, and GDW/Splinter Weapon.
Paragons do terrible damage, period.

In simplest terms, it's a trade-off between better damage and better mitigation.

Pugs Not Drugs · Jul 31, 2011, 08:05 PM // 20:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Venganza

Solo+7 hero PvE?

Ranger totally sucks as frontline, which is what you are forced with in that scenario, whereas an imba will effortlessly handle it and keep a party alive.
.

not true at all. go dagger spam with enraged lunge and watch the red bars go down.

KotCR · Jul 31, 2011, 10:52 PM // 22:52

Too add, also remember that Protective Spirit is removable. And Mesmers have a knack for both doing armour ignoring damage and removing Enchantments. There's Nothing To Fear isn't removable.

Khomet Si Netjer · Aug 01, 2011, 02:48 PM // 14:48

KotCR and Chthon have hit on the main points already... Imbagon is the best damage resistance you can get, the only thing it lacks is Shelter-like spike resistance for the group. However the spear does trivial damage compared to other weapons and the ranger will give good damage and good defense at the same time. In most cases I'd say that the extreme defense of the paragon is overkill and I'd prefer the ranger's mix of offense and defense. If you are playing ranger I'd stick with R/W, perhaps adding a pet as well (volley + enraged lunge perhaps). For paragon primaries I have a hybrid offensive/defensive build that you might like.
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/User:...urning_Barrage

I'd agree that SY is generally stronger than TNTF, but remember that TNTF and ToF apply to all damage, armor-ignoring or not. Heroes can easily supplement this with SYG and Shelter so that you don't really need SY.