Curse

azurebane · Aug 23, 2011, 05:07 PM // 17:07

Greetings all,

I was just curious as to what kinds of builds people prefer using on their para for romping around in PvE these days. I'm not particularly concerned about the efficiency/optimization of said builds, just whether or not they hold your interest.

Personally, I've run:

- the obligatory spearchuck (Focused Anger or Cruel Spear; Stunning Strike was kind of antiquated with the profusion of mesmers on my team)
- packhunter (Heal as One, but I'd like to revisit with Enraged Lunge)
- daggerspam
- axe (I prefer Triple Chop for some odd reason, but Focused Anger provides a nice engine as well)
- Khomet's burning Barrage and scythespammer (the latter of which is excellent; thanks Khomet!)

Currently, I'm poking around with a Hundred Blades build, quite literally just so I can get to see some of my sword skins that never come out (Jade, Sephis, Golden Phoenix, Colossal Scimitar, etc.). It's amusing stabbing a mob and then lighting them on fire, but I bear no illusions about it's effectiveness.

How about you guys?

~ Azurebane

Lexandros · Aug 23, 2011, 05:55 PM // 17:55

Currently, my para is just a spearchucker. I am intriuged by the "imbagon" build, since I want a bit more tanking with my party. One skill you should get if you haven't is "There's Nothing to Fear!"

Venganza · Aug 23, 2011, 08:20 PM // 20:20

I love my para, and I romp through HM dungeons with heros.. Slavers etc...

To be brutally honest however, they can do one thing only: imba.

Paragons are terrible damage dealers, if I wanted to melee I would use a bloody derv.

Kunder · Aug 23, 2011, 10:25 PM // 22:25

Nothing prevents you from running most warrior builds at about 95% effectiveness. Change IMS to Lead The Way and IAS to Frenzy/AR. Tada, you are now playing a warrior. The only useful strength skill that a paragon can't duplicate is Power Attack, somewhat sad as Leadership would otherwise let them play a WE build without needing WE.

If you want a sword build then Hundred Blades and Dragon Slash both perform quite nicely. Earthshaker for Hammer builds also performs nearly identical to the warrior. One could probably make a dagger build but I see no real pressing reason to do so in contrast to the loss of SY.

Lanier · Aug 23, 2011, 10:35 PM // 22:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Venganza

Paragons are terrible damage dealers, if I wanted to melee I would use a bloody derv.

They aren't that bad, spear single-target dps is actually pretty good. Still, all that matters is how fun a build is, and offensive paragon builds are pretty fun.

Personally, I never run imbagon anyway because I find it boring. About 60% of the time, I run a Cruel Spear offensivegon, about 35% of the time I run a Ferocious Strike Beastmastergon, and the other 5% of the time, I'll run Song of Purification, Song of Restoration, or Defensive Anthem.

wilebill · Aug 23, 2011, 10:55 PM // 22:55

For those who don't know about it Khomet's sandbox page gives lots of alternatives.

Me? Boring. Asuran Scan, Save Yourselves, Anthem of Flame, Anthem of Fury Elite, Anthem of Weariness, GFTE, Barbed Spear, Spear of Fury.

12 Spear, 11 Command, 13 Leadership. At 13 Leadership party members get 4 strikes of adrenaline with next attack skill. Running a party with warrior and dervish combo, this does work. Except where it doesn't, but then I will switch to Ranger who has a lot more options.

Of course my damage contribution is negligible. Spam stuff to make other party members do my work for me. Asuran Scan because Spear of Fury has to hit to get the adrenaline boost. Also the DP removal when I die. Save yourselves? Rather save me! But, as a Paragon I suck! But still fun.

drowze · Aug 24, 2011, 12:20 AM // 00:20

I never played a warrior, so I can't say this for sure, but strength would make a W do much better damage than a paragon trying to run a similar build, no?
I very much like playing my paragon (my second fav character^^), but I usually just run variants of the imbagon build.
Just like wilebill above me, I like supporting my team as para, so I don't really focus on doing the damage myself.
To buff my teams damage, I like battle standard of honor, as my paragon plays with 2 para heroes and a barrage hero. It's easy to set the ward so that all of them are in it, and it really does wonders on the damage output of my team.

In case you wonder on my paragons heroes:
- UA Monk (with heavens delight and the clone skill) (I sometimes switch the monk for an earth shaker W)
- N/Mo OotV with heals and hex/condi removal depending on the area
- SoS/resto Rit with splinter
- Onslaught derv (because I wanted to use a derv hero for fun)
- barrage/pet
- 2 paragons (the racway paras with very minor changes to them)

It's heavy on healing, but always naturally end up running heavy on defense/heals. It's far from optimal, but gets the job done. I just got bored with the all caster hero team of my main character, and this provides me with a fun alternative.

Kunder · Aug 24, 2011, 01:09 AM // 01:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by drowze

I never played a warrior, so I can't say this for sure, but strength would make a W do much better damage than a paragon trying to run a similar build, no?

Strength is a bonus % to armor-affected damage that applies only to attack skills. Guild wars players seem to have a fetish for armor penetration, but in the end even at 12 Strength you only gain about +3 damage on each attack skill you use against AL 100. Or, in other words, the warrior's 12 strength advantage probably translates into somewhat less than +1 weapon mastery on average.

WarcryOfTruth · Aug 24, 2011, 02:40 AM // 02:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Venganza

To be brutally honest however, they can do one thing only: imba.

Lol! Every time I see this posted, I just laugh until I can't breathe. But, I have my own builds I've made that I find incredibly fun and useful, but Khomet has a bunch more he's made that he's probably willing to share.

Axel Zinfandel · Aug 24, 2011, 08:01 PM // 20:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by WarcryOfTruth

Lol! Every time I see this posted, I just laugh until I can't breathe. But, I have my own builds I've made that I find incredibly fun and useful, but Khomet has a bunch more he's made that he's probably willing to share.

I think he's missing the word 'unique'.

The only thing the paragon particularly -excels- at is imbagon. Even Khomet's builds are stretches of builds that run better on other classes in a somewhat desperate attempt at some sort of variety to a paragon (no offense, it's just how paragons are. I dig the builds, I do.)

Paragons just have a very unique playstyle that appeals to a good deal of people but is executed very poorly. You'll generally find that any build that is different than imbagon remotely worth using (Song of Purification for instance) ends up being a build better left to heroes.

So paragon players don't have much to work with unless their ok with completely ignoring most paragon skills

azurebane · Aug 25, 2011, 03:15 PM // 15:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by azurebane

Greetings all,

I was just curious as to what kinds of builds people prefer using on their para for romping around in PvE these days. I'm not particularly concerned about the efficiency/optimization of said builds, just whether or not they hold your interest.
...
~ Azurebane

There seems to be a bit of herp-derp intruding on my thread. Yes, I understand that in the world of seven heroes, ST Ritualists, ER Protters, triple Mesmers, et al., there are still those of you who will obsess over the rather superfluous role of imbagon. I understand that there are those of you who will obstinately perpetuate the fact that Paragons are not the highest damage dealers of the profession crop. We get it. Please discuss these issues in someone else's thread.

@ Kunder: regarding an Earthshaker build (since I haven't played with it yet), do you dip into Tactics to fill out the bar ("To the Limit!"?), or is there another angle I'm not thinking of?

@ Lanier: regarding the Ferocious Strike packhunter, what is the reason you use that over Heal as One or Enraged Lunge? Is it just the pet pathing issue?

@ WarcryOfTruth: would you mind sharing some of these builds (at least conceptually)? I'd be interested in hearing more.

~ Azurebane

Khomet Si Netjer · Aug 25, 2011, 03:45 PM // 15:45

I want to thank everybody for their kind words, I am glad that people find the builds useful. Axel has the right of it, generally the paragon skills are underpowered and there is little that a paragon can do that another profession can't do better, especially when it comes to damage or damage buffing, and this is primarily where I have focused my efforts to make the paragon more useful and fun to play. Even if you like the "imbagon" style of play, what should a paragon do if there is already an Imbagon on the team? The paragon needs more variety and additional roles (damage buffer, damage dealer, anti-pressure, misc support). This is Arenanet's responsibility as they are the only ones that can change the profession or its skills.

In reference to the builds on my Sandbox page, the ones I am proudest of are Burning Barrage and Focused Scythe, because these two take advantage of things that the paragon is actually pretty good at (adrenaline gain, burning, and party defense). They also take advantage of the other profession's much better weaponry to deliver damage to multiple foes at once, which satisfies my need to cause damage. So in answer to Azurebane's question, the builds that are most interesting to me are the ones where I feel that I am making a difference. This could be party defense, mass AoE damage, mass interrupts or something else. I need to feel like I matter and my paragon is not simply singing while necromancers and mesmers and ritualists kill everything.

Ouwebak · Sep 17, 2011, 05:49 PM // 17:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lanier

all that matters is how fun a build is
....
Personally, I never run imbagon anyway because I find it boring

I used Imbagon for a while untill I got bored with it.
Now I'm running this for PVE:
- Enraged Lunge
- Call of Protection
- Never Rampage Alone
- Go for the Eyes
- Comfort Animal
And whatever I think is needed:
Barbed Spear, Disrupting Throw, Wild Throw, Fall Back, Otyughs Cry, or Ferocious Strike as Elite.

Quaker · Sep 18, 2011, 03:31 PM // 15:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lanier

Still, all that matters is how fun a build is,

Words of wisdom.

I don't use my Para that often. If I'm doing something with heroes, I use a sort of spearchucker + party buff build.
Technobabble, Holy Spear, Blazing Spear, Wild Throw, Focused Anger, "There's Nothing To Fear!", EBSoC, rez (Subject to change without notice or reason)

If I'm with a PuG, I'm usually an Imbagon (because that's what they expect, and need

).

Since I have characters of every class, I don't tend to use gimicky builds. If I want to use an axe, I use my warrior.

jewfrokid · Oct 08, 2011, 04:56 AM // 04:56

Between Damage buff shouts and Area attacks Paras can deal decent damage. SoH, Find Their Weakness, Anthem of Envy (if I'm correct), I am the strongest, GDW/Splinter can do great damage. It's all about how you set up your heros/team. Paragons are meant for team play, they need the assistance of other players skills to boost their damage as well. (if this made any sense)

LifeInfusion · Oct 08, 2011, 06:12 PM // 18:12

If I were a paragon I'd run something with leadership because without it, you might as well run another class. Paragons also don't tend to work well with casters when they don't go Imbagon: they have only a few skills triggering off spells (Song of Restoration; Aria of Zeal; Aria of Restoration).

The Burning Barrage and Focused Anger scythe (when enchant strips are rampant, Paragons are more armored than Dervishes: 80+10 vs 70+10 or so from Mysticism and up to another +20 from Windwalker) are probably the most solid builds on Khomet's wiki page for the above reason. Some of his stuff like Searing flames/RoJ on a Paragon make me go WTF (since Paragons have 2 pips of energy and without adrenaline-based shouts you get 0 energy from leadership).

I've use Soldier's Stance builds in the past too (PvP) before they hit the Wiki, which is the biggest example of Leadership use/abuse. Too boring for my tastes, but "Watch Yourself!" spam was good at the time (not so much now); Shields Up!" is decent in certain places (it had blocking before instead of +60 piercing); "Charge!" can be more useful than "Incoming!" at times; Protector's Defense suddenly becomes usable (yay). If you pump Motivation to 8 or 9, "The Power is Yours!" can be used as Finale of Restoration fodder if you decide to be "creative" and don't go Command.

I've experimented with Paragons in the past and the only skills I really like are TNTF, high-specced "Stand Your Ground!" (reminiscent of old "Watch Yourself!"), "Fall Back!", "Go For the Eyes!", the super-buffed "We Shall Return!" when sans-UA-monk, Anthem of Envy, "They're on Fire!" in NM when using Searing Flames eles (sorry, Burning refrain is way too conditional for me). On the damage front, Blazing Spear, Spear of Lightning, Vicious Attack (used with GFTE!), Spear of Fury are pretty solid and Wild Throw is useful. Stunning Strike is situationally useful (when used with Spear of Fury) against Ele bosses (that's about it). Merciless Spear is nice but there's too many sources of reliable deep wound these days.

There's a ton of skills I want to be buffed for Paragons that I submitted on GWWiki feedback but I guess Arenanet thinks Paragons are fine or something (motivation is sad). Some things like "Find Their Weakness!" , "Make Your Time!" would be pretty decent if they weren't so damn expensive and on mediocre recharge; other skills are ridiculously situational: "Brace Yourself!", "Can't Touch This!" (only in DoA's Stygian area), "Make Haste!" (Jade Quarry), "Never Give Up!" (theoretically could support a monk healing up an AoE spike), "Never Surrender!" (usable but the way it works could be tweaked to work like Recuperation), Angelic Protection/Angelic Bond (the only reason it can't be good is because it would be too good: see the version of Aegis in PvP or Divine Intervention), Anthem of Fury basically needs a 18-12 man team with at least 3 physicals that use adrenaline to warrant elite status, and Ballad of Restoration is vying for pre-prot status, Holy Spear has to vie with Spear of Redemption (underrated due to low adrenaline and anti-blind qualities) so only when there's tons of minions is it worth it. I'm still mad Soldier's Fury has an armor penalty that makes you equal to a caster (you are devoting your elite to it, it's not like the perma-IAS, Aggressive Refrain) and that Chants have aftercast (they're not spells, so wtf mate, Paragons need to build adrenaline by spear auto-attacking you know). With the change to Wearying Strike, I'd like to see a change to Wearying Spear too.

The only place I run Paragon in PVP is AB simply because of the 12-man nature of it. The more people there are, the better Leadership energy return is and the more effective party-wide shouts are.

"Save Yourselves!" is a warrior skill. Don't you forget that. The only reasons why P/W is better than P/W are the TNTF link to leadership and Focused Anger; Spear of Fury isn't linked to Leadership. TNTF is basically an anti-mesmer or anti-necro version of "Stand Your Ground!" since 30-35% damage reduction is roughly the same as +24 armor.
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tl;dr: Sorry for the long post. Make sure your build uses/abuses/exploits Leadership.

Reverend Dr · Oct 08, 2011, 06:39 PM // 18:39

I am still a fan of the multi-paragon motagon backlines.