Curse

boricuaguy · Sep 19, 2011, 07:15 PM // 19:15

The reason why I am asking this is because many people bash Paragons as being boring and just using one build only, which is Imbagon. They also state that they are weak and need rebalanced. When in reality there are a whole bunch of skills that help the team greatly. My concern is, that since GW came out, many people chose the role of being a lone wolf. They just like to play alone, farm, and not work as a team. Damage for me its not all, because if you have a lot of damage and very little armor then you are a glass cannon. If you have too much defense and little damage input then you are considered a tank. It is always good to play as a team, because it is more rewarding.

I know there are many more builds out there than the ones provided by PVX Wikia but many players do not choose to post them or let them being known. Nowadays I don't see many Paragons in outposts, groups, pvp. Why is that?

Ever since they started adding hero's into GW, players decided that they didn't need anybody to help with missions or quests. And now with the big expansion of using 7 heroes, there is no point of even having the henchman or other players around. I understand that in HM it is different, NM should be treated as HM i believe.

That is my 2 cents on how i see GW has evolved and my reason for why i think people don't like Paragons. Please correct me if I am wrong.

What are your thoughts on the Paragons and what are some things made you choose your Paragon as your main character?

Thank you for reading and hope hear from you all soon

.

Axel Zinfandel · Sep 19, 2011, 08:00 PM // 20:00

Paragon is a very fun play style that has been plagued with mistreatment and balance issues since release. It has incredible potential, and aren't even that difficult to tweak to a more usable state these days, but it never seems to get done.

They still have uses as hero builds as they probably have the best condition ridding skill in the game (Song of Purification), but for the most part, Players are boned :/

Venganza · Sep 19, 2011, 08:17 PM // 20:17

Sure a Paragon can effectively only do one thing, as damage dealers they are useless compared to other classes.

Having said that, I can rampage through any HM area or dungeon without taking damage or having a hero die, whereas with human pug teams, we often struggle or party wipe, so.... boring? Perhaps, but I rather enjoy doing things like CoF in 30mins without needing to think, pull or micro... c-space, c-space... rather relaxing

wilebill · Sep 19, 2011, 09:05 PM // 21:05

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/User:Khomet/Sandbox good stuff

I run a semi Imbagon mostly because I am lazy. Great character but leveling can be a royal pain and you need a high value of Luxon/Kurzick to really make it all work well. Least my build you do.

That being said, real damage output of the Paragon itself is low. A side by side comparison vanquishing the Morostav trail sometime back with Paragon and Ranger Beast Master revealed that both worked about equally well until it came time to take down Sunreach Warmaker and company. The Ranger did this hardly noticing. The Paragon got an F in the course. Just not enough damage output from the Paragon. Sunreach ate his lunch.

So, yes I like my Paragon. He is good for some tasks, stinks at others. I believe that the reason you see so few Paragons is that they are hard to level and until you get the right of skills, sort of wimp and weak. Unless you use highly creative builds like those in the reference above and most of us most of the time are too pig stupid to think of them.

_Aphotic_ · Sep 19, 2011, 09:07 PM // 21:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by boricuaguy

The reason why I am asking this is because many people bash Paragons as being boring and just using one build only, which is Imbagon. They also state that they are weak and need rebalanced. When in reality there are a whole bunch of skills that help the team greatly.

This is true. The fact that people are just failing to utilize or realize the potential of the paragon's other skills are only self-faults that they cannot get over being imba (it's so much easier though...). OFC, there are those who've never discovered imba (who don't PvX ), and have no idea about it......

Quote:

Originally Posted by boricuaguy

I know there are many more builds out there than the ones provided by PVX Wikia but many players do not choose to post them or let them being known. Nowadays I don't see many Paragons in outposts, groups, pvp. Why is that?

I see plenty around. Including myself.

Quote:

Originally Posted by boricuaguy

Ever since they started adding hero's into GW, players decided that they didn't need anybody to help with missions or quests. And now with the big expansion of using 7 heroes, there is no point of even having the henchman or other players around. I understand that in HM it is different, NM should be treated as HM i believe.

huh?

Quote:

Originally Posted by boricuaguy

What are your thoughts on the Paragons and what are some things made you choose your Paragon as your main character?

-I can mindlessly clear every area in the game without thinking about tactics when I need to. Yes. Every area.
-I can still experiment around and have fun when I want to :P
-8xParagons are practically invincible.
-It suits my playstyle. Shout spam and spear mashing.
-None of my friends play their paragon much. Helps when you really need an imba if your friends are bad players.

boricuaguy · Sep 19, 2011, 09:32 PM // 21:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by boricuaguy

Ever since they started adding hero's into GW, players decided that they didn't need anybody to help with missions or quests. And now with the big expansion of using 7 heroes, there is no point of even having the henchman or other players around. I understand that in HM it is different, NM should be treated as HM i believe

What i meant to say was that now that we can use 7 heroes instead of 3 like it used to be before, it makes it even easier for people to play alone and not worry about PUGs. Dont' know if that kinda makes sense Aphotic :P.

BTW thank you for your response. It is really helpful.

Quaker · Sep 19, 2011, 09:55 PM // 21:55

People who say that the only good build for a Paragon is an Imbagon, generally fall into one or more of a few groups.
1. Those who play GW like it's an FPS/console game. For them, everything has to be 'optimal'. The idea of playing something for fun escapes them.
2. Those who only use pre-packaged PvX builds and can't or won't think outside the box.
3. Those who are always in a hurry to finish things asap.

I have characters of all classes. They each have their good and bad points. While Paragon is not one of my favourites, it was/is still fun occasionally. (I just finished doing some Factions missions in HM - to complete a book - using a not-especially-good spearchucker build and 7 heroes/mercs.)

Xenomortis · Sep 19, 2011, 10:24 PM // 22:24

They're a ranged attacker (no SoH) with a limited attack skill-set, no AoE capabilities at all, not particularly high damage output and almost all of their non-attack skills do bugger all. They also have limited viability with the PvE skill set; it's SY, TNTF and nothing else.

Still, he can carry the mismatched crap that forms PUGs so that's worth something.

Lanier · Sep 20, 2011, 02:16 AM // 02:16

They are a support class with far more crappy support skills than good ones. This is their primary problem. I couldn't care less about a paragon's damage output - I just wish that there were more viable support builds than what there are. I'm not even talking about optimal support builds - paragons simply don't have many viable support builds either.

Their main problem is that beyond TnTF, Go for the eyes, anthem of envy, and maybe anthem of weariness or flame if you want those conditions, there simply arn't any good support skills available to paragons. I know that SyG is used by heroes sometimes, but it does have a condition and is completely outclassed by SY (probably by "watch yourselfs" also). Fall back doesn't really count since its not a skill used in battle. Those that are good (the ones previously mentioned) are also way limited by conditions, needing to be activated with an attack skill or an attack, etc (exception: TnTF - this is the one truly great paragon support skill).

Song of Purification and Flesh of my flesh round out the paragon's support options, but with no other good motivation skills to go with either of these elites, an effective build can't really be formed around them.

So yea, thats the main problem with paragons. They are a support class with only 4-6 good support skills.

Now don't get me wrong, I still use paragon beastmasters, and defensive anthem paragons, and motivation paragons, and searing flames paragons, and scythe/sword/axe/hammer/dagger/bow paragon builds, but i don't delude myself into thinking they are any good.

drowze · Sep 20, 2011, 02:16 AM // 02:16

I like my para a lot (my second main), and I hate to say it, but what Xenos pointed out, is true. For that reason I am still hoping for a para update

Give them a little more damage with their spears, and some way to do aoe damage (an attack that hits 3 foes for 7 adrenaline or something, anything ><).
As for pve-skills... SY, TNTF are indeed stapled to my bar, but depending on the team the battle standards of honor and wisdom can be useful; I find spear of fury nice as well. Or boost your own dmg with I am the strongest or your own survivability with IAU.

Anyway, using a para and para heroes I am having a good time on my own (regular HM), paras have a spot in farming an endgame area (doa), and I can find a spot in pugs as well if I choose to join one (even though there seems to be a one-paragon-per-group-policy ><). So I guess paragons can't complain too much

PS: Still, some skill changes might be fun

Xsiriss · Sep 20, 2011, 11:29 AM // 11:29

Paragons are quite fun to include in your team set up (not so much to play). Their style is very organic in that it they provide buffs that can keep the team going by them just playing (Aria of Zeal, Song of restoration etc.). As mentioned before they're just too weak to take into HM because of how badly implemented they are. Skills have crappy recharge times and fair lukewarm effects in comparison to other classes.

chuckles79 · Sep 20, 2011, 05:07 PM // 17:07

Like any class, it has to fit your play style. I started out playing a ranger, so I found the switch to para very comfortable and actually an improvement. If I preferred melee players or casters, I'd probably hate the para.

Pros:
-It's easiest profession to roll NM and HM with 7 heroes with. The imbagon build keeps your caster heroes alive while they pump out the curses and conditions.

-Some shouts affect minions

-If you are playing with guildies who are running physical damage, they will love you. GftE and anthems are a ranger's best friends.

-The damage is not that bad. I use Spear of Fury in place of EBSoH, and with a high allegiance rank, it's not too shabby. With buffs seeing 60-120 dmg is not uncommon.

-You can usually find a place in daily Zaishen quests. It's like being a ritualist, in that a group usually wants only one, two at the most.

CONS

-Cannot do ANYTHING solo

-Worthless in 4 man areas, severe disadvantage. Minister Cho's in WoC seems impossible to me.(it's not, but it requires rethinking and revising.)

-The bridge/edge bug that ANET has NEVER fixed, where ranged attacks miss if someone stands on a bridge side or against certain walls.

-SC's are optimized for high dmg output, a offensive/defensive hybrid isn't high on anyone's list. Only DOA runs want a para, to physical buff the Glaivers suicide diving in.

-The long hoped for buff/nerf is not coming. For a long time it was stated that paras were next on the list for revisionist treatment after dervishes. Recent statements hint that this is not going to happen.

Note: This last one is just my private opinion, but I think that ANet regrets the paragon profession. Their focus for the longest time was on GvG, and effective paragons in PvE were impossible to manage in PvP. Alot of the decisions made seem to reflect this, even statements made by individuals at ANet reflect this.
I'd personally would love to see all the nerfed skills reverted for PvE, which would be as good as a buff, but such changes don't appear to be a priority.

Lanier · Sep 21, 2011, 01:43 AM // 01:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by chuckles79

Note: This last one is just my private opinion, but I think that ANet regrets the paragon profession. Their focus for the longest time was on GvG, and effective paragons in PvE were impossible to manage in PvP. Alot of the decisions made seem to reflect this, even statements made by individuals at ANet reflect this.
I'd personally would love to see all the nerfed skills reverted for PvE, which would be as good as a buff, but such changes don't appear to be a priority.

They haven't made any indication that its not coming and anet tends to take ages to implement skill updates anyway.

iToasterHD · Sep 21, 2011, 04:09 PM // 16:09

They haven't explicitly stated that there will be no update, however they have announced that there will no longer be any major updates like that of the Dervish. Most people assume, then, that the Paragon will not be updated. At least, not appreciably so.

KotCR · Sep 21, 2011, 04:27 PM // 16:27

Yeah, but in a relatively recent post they said they have ideas about redesigning all the professions, and IIRC that they have some ideas about wanting to change the Paragon still...but that's it, just ideas. That sounds like they've not even started to work on something, which means that it will be a very very long time before we see any changes to the class if we ever do. Honestly though, I don't know why that have to make such a big thing of it...by just fixing/changing a dozen skills they could really help out Paragons of all types (Command, Motivation, Leadership, Spear), at least for the time being, until they can devote a proper amount of time to redesign the profession into something that really works. It would only be a band-aid, but it'd be appreciated all the same I'm sure.

Quote:

Originally Posted by chuckles79

-The damage is not that bad. I use Spear of Fury in place of EBSoH, and with a high allegiance rank, it's not too shabby. With buffs seeing 60-120 dmg is not uncommon.

Yeah, I do this too. You can get an epic ranged spike from a Paragon with a few skills.
With a good amount of points in command, using Find Their Weakness and Spear of Fury you can hit for 100+, apply a Deep Wound, and instantly fill up all your adrenaline skills to follow up with a finishing blow. The above spike takes most regular enemies to around the 50% HP mark as it is, and when under Anthem of Envy, in an EBSoH, and under the affects of an Order/Conjure/Brutal Weapon you can spike an enemy really friggin' hard by yourself...but unfourtunetly that's all it is, a spike. Recharge times prevent you from getting a high DPS but it's fun and can be handy to quickly take out a priority target all the same.

Lanier · Sep 21, 2011, 06:12 PM // 18:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by iToasterHD

They haven't explicitly stated that there will be no update, however they have announced that there will no longer be any major updates like that of the Dervish. Most people assume, then, that the Paragon will not be updated. At least, not appreciably so.

Anet said that they wouldn't do any more 9-month profession overhauls. Paragons don't need a 9-month profession overhaul. They need a normal skill update, similar to what the mesmers got in a 3-month time period.

cataphract · Sep 22, 2011, 08:24 AM // 08:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by boricuaguy

What are your thoughts on the Paragons and what are some things made you choose your Paragon as your main character?

The only reason I made a Paragon was my desire to have one character of each profession. Even though she was created three years ago she still hasn't finished NF. Because I find Paragons really boring to play. On top of that - most of their spears are just plain ugly and have no business flying. Besides, I worry about Nadia developing tennis elbow so I rarely play her.

iToasterHD · Sep 27, 2011, 01:21 PM // 13:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by cataphract

Besides, I worry about Nadia developing tennis elbow so I rarely play her.

I'm glad you brought that up. Lateral epicondylitis (or tennis elbow) is a growing epidemic among paragons and is not getting the media attention necessary to spread awareness.

Please, talk to your Paragons today about preventative measures:
Take frequent breaks.
Stay in shape.
Like other sports, use equipment appropriate towards your ability, body size and muscular strength (maybe you should reconsider using that Voltaic Spear).

Swingline · Sep 27, 2011, 01:38 PM // 13:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by chuckles79

Like any class, it has to fit your play style. I started out playing a ranger, so I found the switch to para very comfortable and actually an improvement. If I preferred melee players or casters, I'd probably hate the para.

This is what made me delete my Paragon. My main is a Warrior anyways.

I seriously don't get Anets attempt at this class other than they forgot to put spears in the game and they needed to come up with a new class for NF. The Paragon is plagued with horrible game design and some people just refuse to see it. Compare the Paragons damage capabilities to other damage dealers and tell me there's no problem. Same can be said for its support capabilities outside PvE only skills and SYG. The entire motivation line needs to be looked at(anet said it will be) and a few spear/command/leadership skills. When Anet does take a look at motivation I am hoping they make it the 3rd healing class in the game.

P.S. Why is there no shield with leadership req?

Axel Zinfandel · Sep 28, 2011, 05:38 PM // 17:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Swingline

This is what made me delete my Paragon. My main is a Warrior anyways.

I seriously don't get Anets attempt at this class other than they forgot to put spears in the game and they needed to come up with a new class for NF. The Paragon is plagued with horrible game design and some people just refuse to see it. Compare the Paragons damage capabilities to other damage dealers and tell me there's no problem. Same can be said for its support capabilities outside PvE only skills and SYG. The entire motivation line needs to be looked at(anet said it will be) and a few spear/command/leadership skills. When Anet does take a look at motivation I am hoping they make it the 3rd healing class in the game.

P.S. Why is there no shield with leadership req?

1)Paragons are not and were never meant to be heavy damage dealers. They were meant to deal more weapon damage than casters can, but focus on team buffing. I will forever disagree with people saying that Paragons need AoE and more damage capabilities, because that draws the focus of what they're meant to be and their unique style. I will agree though that said unique style suffers incredibly because of the motivation line, and some command. Spear mastery could take a looking to as well, but not in the terms of AoE, or heavy damage. It draws down to a few fundamental flaws (PvE talkin. I've not the expertise to comment on PvP Paras).

-Too many useless are specific skills. Paragons and Dervishes have the least amount of skills available to them so they HAVE TO COUNT. Lyric of Purification/Zeal is staple proof of this. No one is going to bring those expecting a reliable trigger on them. Same goes, to a lesser but still noticeable extent, those that trigger on spells/attack skills. (Ideally I would actually like
-Purifying Finale, Energizing Finale and Finale of Restoration are great skills that lack a reliable trigger of such skills. This synergy can easily be turned into a paragon's version of a boonprot with one of the many useless ELITE skills in the game (looking at you, "It's just a flesh wound!")
-Too many IMS skills. Dervish had the same issue. for PvE you could use one IMS skill MAYBE, and believe me guys, Fall Back has it covered. the rest can be reworked into more useful alternatives.

Other problems?

Chants are TOO BRAINDEAD TO BE USED PROPERLY. Here's something I questioned one day. How exactly can one hear someone chanting amidst a battle of metal clangs and explosions at the same distance one can hear someone shouting?

-Why not reduce the AoE of Chants? Then we could tweak the recharge of said skills along with their power and not have to worry so much about them being too powerful because we'd have to pay attention to who we are effecting with them. I'm not talking Adjacent here. Perhaps "In the Area".
-consider HoT for motivation. Anet was, and assumingly still is worried about giving a heavily armored class powerful healing, and Healing over Time in GW is used more in a prot aspect than a healing one. Making paragons the king of AoEHoT would be an interesting step.

Leadership is also wonky. I have no suggestion on how to fix it, but they suffer FAR too much in 4 man areas, and arguable are too effective in 8 man areas.
I feel it should be noted that although Paragons tend to operate better with other paragons, I don't see this as a problem. In fact working a full/near full paragon team it's probably the most fun you can do with a paragon right now. If possibly I would love that ability, and skills that make it possible preserved :P

Spear Mastery could use going over with a comb. Spear of Fury is an example of a good skill that synergizes with what paragons do, and it's sadly the only spear attack that does this. I'd love to see more spear attacks that passively reward the paragon on doing things with shouts/chants/echos/ect. Like a simple "Deal +20 damage, your next chant casts 1 second faster" or something. Most paragons only take two or three spear skills, and they always feel like simple damage fodder, which is unfortunate.