Curse

Bobby Sox · Apr 27, 2011, 02:58 PM // 14:58

Yes, Paragons need help. Two of the main reasons they were nerfed after the release of Nightfall were to stop the 8 Paragon teams that were forming (notably in HA), and to stop GvG Paragons from tipping the scale too much with shouts and anthems when all the NPCs walked out to the flagstand during Victory or Death. The latter is no longer an issue, though the former could still be a problem if handled incorrectly.

To fix the issues Paragons face, I'd first suggest reinstating all the old ally-affecting shouts and chants to their former glory. This in and of itself would have little effect on GvG and HA, but would help in AB and PvE, for example.

Secondly, an idea that I proposed a long time ago, but was brutally shot down due to the fact that Racway *could* handle 4-man areas of PvE: I'd suggest that Leadership at least be changed to give 2 energy per ally affected by your shouts and chants with the maximum remaining the same as currently. This aids the Paragon in smaller player count areas, such as RA, GvG split situations, and certain PvE areas. It will not, however, change the delicate energy-cost balance in other situations.

Third, as many have already stated, many skills are too niche, have too long a recharge, or are simply inferior to other classes. The best example of this is the one made about Ballad of Restoration versus Divine Healing/Heaven's Delight. All require earshot, Ballad heals for a little more at the cost of 5 more energy (although reduced by Leadership) and a conditional trigger (the party members have to take damage to be healed). At the same time, however, Ballad has a 30/20 second recharge in PvP/PvE versus the 12 second recharge of the monk spells. Paragons do not have their own PvE version of Unyielding Aura, etc. to boost the healing amount, either.

The trouble with fixing most of these skills is obviously the effect it will have when multiplied by numerous Paragons. Really, though, the main difference between an all-Paragon team and an all-anything else team is the constant triggering of finales, echoes, and refrains from party members' shouts and chants. the obvious fix to me would be to change these skills to something more on the lines of many Ritualist spells: "If you are under the effects of a shout or chant, x happens". This makes the Paragon no better off in a full group than Ritualists making use of other's spirits/weapon spells while allowing the shouts and chants to be rebuffed in their own right.

Khomet Si Netjer · Apr 27, 2011, 04:33 PM // 16:33

Many of us seem to be thinking along the same lines... some changes to spear mastery, changing highly conditional and/or useless skills in Command and Leadership, and reworking Motivation to give healing and energy over time so that it does not directly compete with the monk and ritualist. I have compiled a rather lengthy list of suggestions for all of these things, please feel free to leave comments if you have better ideas. Realistically it may not matter much since Arenanet seems disinclined to do what they said they were going to do in May 2010... they seem content to let Guild Wars 1 wither away in its current state. :-\

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/User:..._skill_changes

Demon's Dance · Apr 27, 2011, 09:10 PM // 21:10

<Sarcasm>"Never give up"...choose a secondary paragon to fuel all your casters with energy.Anthem of Disruption ... go go 8 black bears,2-3 ritualists teams.Anthem of Guidance + Godspeed - go go 25% faster,unblockable 8 black bears,2-3 rits teams.Maybe adding some damage to those reapers...Anthem of Envy + Anthem of Fury(not to all of them because ...it's madness).But there is always a room for a MM.Hell yeah.You think this is not enough.Consider bringing Defensive Anthem.1 copy is enough but you could take 2.
</Sarcasm>

Angelic Protection + Shadow Form + "Can't Touch This!" + Song of Concentration + "Brace Yourself!" = Teh perfect tank

Most Motivation changes are perfectly balanced = there are better alternatives.

Spear changes ...me likes

P.S.You misunderstood my suggestion and you call yours ...balanced.
P.P.S.Please look at the very bottom of the page,now look my suggestion.It makes sense.http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/d...441769p26.html

Mednes · Apr 27, 2011, 09:27 PM // 21:27

I really don't know what's with the post above mine...
Anyway they should nerf imbagon for better balance.

Hymn · May 01, 2011, 01:59 PM // 13:59

In my opinion there are pros and cons regarding the paragon and having a Para as a main, I could attest to some of the claims.

So let me start by pointing out its good side. The whole party buffing concept and its mid-range abilities really made me want to make a Para (which I did 3 years ago) and considering placing another 2-4 more Para heroes in your party would be massive damage vis-a-vis constant adrenaline pumping, damage reduction, heals, and overall survivability. Adding skills such as Anthem of Fury, Stand your Ground!, Anthem of Envy, Find their Weakness!, and many more greatly increases overall impact of having a Paragon in a party. True enough that a Paragon does stand out from the other professions and defining its role as a model of perfection.

As a counterpoint to what I've said above, a lot of their skills are quite lackluster an example of which are Angelic Bond, Lyrics, Cautery sig and others. Mostly (if not all) players who play Paragons have rarely touched the Motivation tree and I can say that it's really something Anet needs to work on since most of the skills' effects have a minor role in most parties. Another downfall that I'd want to share is that their lack of flexibility in terms of good party buffing with regards to having all attributes filled (a possibility would be 12 Spear, 9 Leadership, half/half Command & moti) as their good skills require high points in a specific "buff" attribute for it to shine.

With all of these said, I'm quite leaning on a revamp of the Para but as is they are quite overwhelming if given the right set of choices.

Hymn

chuckles79 · May 25, 2011, 08:53 PM // 20:53

I think the price of headache medication would skyrocket in Western Washington if the ANet team attempted in any way to modify the paragon for PvP use.

If it were up to me, I'd do it anyway because I feel that HA and GvG are niche formats; but I understand how important they are to Anet and their vision for the game's PvP.

The paragon was nerfed because of PvP, and the nerfs happened before the split. Now that the split has happened, how about they start with reverting nerfs back to release, and change the functionality of lyrics to something other than signets.
That would take care of 90% of the problems people gripe about.
The rest, remove 3 second activation times on spear attacks for cripes sake, and give Slayer's spear a volley like effect with 3x speed, because A. cost 10e and 10s recharge it's not elite, and B. There are already plenty of spear attacks that cause deepwound.
Make Mighty Spear cause cracked armor.

And done. Racway is ultra strong, but more importantly you can have more than one para on a PuG without having some "it's not meta" creep ragequit.

Which is what it's all about at the end of the day.

Lanier · May 25, 2011, 10:40 PM // 22:40

I dont really think that paragons should be modified in PvP. They already have their uses in the 8 man formats, and it would take a lot of time on the part of the developer team to adjust a paragon to be more viable in the 4 man formats.

As for your other recommendations... well they're fine but paragons need more than just what you recommended. Their primary problem is that they are a support class without many good support skills. In my opinion, the chants, shouts, echos, and other random skills (angelic protection, angelic bond, the signets, etc.) need to be the focus of a paragon update. If anet gives paragons AoE capabilities, it should be in the form of a support skill, sorta like splinter (one that, of course, can be used on the user should the user choose to do so).

Bobby Sox · May 27, 2011, 04:10 AM // 04:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lanier

Their primary problem is that they are a support class without many good support skills. In my opinion, the chants, shouts, echos, and other random skills (angelic protection, angelic bond, the signets, etc.) need to be the focus of a paragon update.

I agree. Sure, I'd love to see a Volley-esk spear attack and for Mighty/Unblockable Throw to be more accessable, but I would much prefer my Paragon's support skills to be made into true support skills.

Quote:

I dont really think that paragons should be modified in PvP. They already have their uses in the 8 man formats, and it would take a lot of time on the part of the developer team to adjust a paragon to be more viable in the 4 man formats.

On this point, however, I have to disagree a little bit. I feel that Paragons don't need that much help for them to see more PvP action, but there are a few issues there, too. They may almost all be solved, though, by fixing Leadership's benefit for smaller arenas like I mentioned in my previous post.

I understand that too much fiddling will easily upset the GvG and HA balance, for what they are worth. Nonetheless, they are the only profession who's primary attribute fails them in the absense of a full team.

Now, I'm not saying that Paragons should be the kings of soloing. In formats such as RA and Codex, it is impossible to have an 8-man team, however. Also, in places such as JQ, it is highly improbable and not desireable to have your entire team focused at one spot on the map. About the only way you would get full benefit from Leadership's energy gain there would be if you were guarding a shrine (should you be using a shout or chant that affects allies). Then we come back around to the other point about the support skills, though.

I do not see how changing Leadership to 2 energy per affected ally will harm GvG or HA at all. Please feel free to prove me wrong, but the only possible problem I can see is that a single target shout would cost 1 less energy on a primary Paragon than it currently does. The change, would, however, drastically improve the Paragon in lower player count arenas.

Quote:

Originally Posted by chuckles79

Now that the split has happened, how about they start with reverting nerfs back to release

As far as ally-affecting versus party-affecting shouts and chants, do you see much harm in reverting that aspect in PvP, too? Ritualist spirits getting buffs from the chants could be easily remedied by making it "non spirit allies" if it's a big deal. Otherwise, about the only time you are going to affect more than one or two allies at a time in either GvG or HA would be if you were cloistered around your Guild Lord. I really don't view that as a problem, myself.

[email protected]!k3 · Jul 22, 2011, 09:00 PM // 21:00

This needs a bump. Though, I can see how this discussion has stopped because simply, the problems are so obvious that we pretty much stated the most of what's wrong. Thinking of a solution is the hard part; the Paragon is already an abstract concept as it stands, so thinking of an equally abstract solution is equally hard. You'd think that the live team would at least do small changes at a time; like the other professions, but when was the last update for any Para skill? I can't even recall. I know they probably have their hands full with GW2 and what-not, but the problems are blatant.

I can't really think of any suggestions at the moment, but it would be nice to maybe start a brainstorm that we can agree on for a basis of a foundation that would make Paras more viable and less reliant on just one build.

Khomet Si Netjer · Jul 23, 2011, 05:16 PM // 17:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by [email protected]!k3

This needs a bump. Though, I can see how this discussion has stopped because simply, the problems are so obvious that we pretty much stated the most of what's wrong. Thinking of a solution is the hard part; the Paragon is already an abstract concept as it stands, so thinking of an equally abstract solution is equally hard. You'd think that the live team would at least do small changes at a time; like the other professions, but when was the last update for any Para skill? I can't even recall. I know they probably have their hands full with GW2 and what-not, but the problems are blatant.

I can't really think of any suggestions at the moment, but it would be nice to maybe start a brainstorm that we can agree on for a basis of a foundation that would make Paras more viable and less reliant on just one build.

I have compiled a list of suggestions that (hopefully) address every problem with the paragon, I am reposting a link for convenience.
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/User:..._skill_changes

If you care to look through these please keep the following in mind...
- The ideas are more important than the numbers. Numbers can easily be tweaked up or down.
- Many skills have been buffed from their current versions. This is necessary for the paragon to do its job; if other professions' skills are unquestionably superior to the paragon, there is no reason for the paragon to exist.
- If you have a better idea or you have an idea for a skill not covered here, please share it so we can discuss.

Thanks,
Khomet

Lanier · Jul 23, 2011, 05:59 PM // 17:59

I think the most important thing for paragons (and any physical prof really) would be for SY to get nerfed. It is too damn powerful, and although it isn't always necessary (i usually don't take it because i have enough other sources of prot in my team), it is just too easily abused. Really, SY just needs an entire functionality change, and more of a tie toward the warrior prof.

I'm reading through your suggestions again Khomet and here's some feedback. I'v probably already stated a lot of this before, but yea... here it is again.

Brace Yourself: seems a little too powerful. I would suggest making it end on each individual ally after one KD. Maybe decrease the recharge slightly too. I know you are trying to compare it to ward of stability, but remember that the ward only works on allies within its area, and that area isn't very large.

I like the second "cant touch this" suggestion more.

Anthem of Guidance still seems very weak on the PvE end. My suggestion would be keeping the functionality as it currently is for PvP, and adding some bonus damage for that hit in PvE.

Crippling Anthem also seems very underwhelming for PvE. My suggestion would be to keep its current functionality for PvE and add another couple of conditions (weakness and deep wound seem good) for PvE. Stance removal is very niche, and not particularly elite worthy.

I really would like to see Angelic bond's original functionality returned, except at an energy cost and recharge both of 5. It was useful in its own unique way, and allowed for an interesting angelic protection build. Why anet nerfed it in the first place is beyond me.

Finally, I really think that AR's energy cost should be 5 (or at most, 10). Like you note on the page, AR is maintainable so its not like this would make it any more powerful than it already is. It would just make it less annoying to use as you wouldn't have to maintain it outside of battle.

Anyway, thats my initial 2 cents. I already think that paragon spear damage is fine so i'm not going to bother with those skills.

Khomet Si Netjer · Jul 24, 2011, 03:50 AM // 03:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lanier

I think the most important thing for paragons (and any physical prof really) would be for SY to get nerfed. It is too damn powerful, and although it isn't always necessary (i usually don't take it because i have enough other sources of prot in my team), it is just too easily abused. Really, SY just needs an entire functionality change, and more of a tie toward the warrior prof.

I won't argue that but I don't see how nerfing SY will help the paragon, instead it will only remove one of the only "viable" roles the paragon has... and as you have pointed out, SY is a warrior skill.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lanier

Brace Yourself: seems a little too powerful. I would suggest making it end on each individual ally after one KD. Maybe decrease the recharge slightly too. I know you are trying to compare it to ward of stability, but remember that the ward only works on allies within its area, and that area isn't very large.

Well the effect is just the same if you think about it... heroes that kite away from melee or AoE damage might leave the ward and get knocked down. In this case Brace Yourself will not prevent the knockdown either because it only works on allies that are not moving. In the case where no one is moving then Ward of Stability and this new version of Brace Yourself are completely equivalent... they both prevent knockdown and can't be removed. In both cases the counter is the same, force targets to move so that they become vulnerable. This same tactic also counters SYG.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lanier

I like the second "cant touch this" suggestion more.

Anthem of Guidance still seems very weak on the PvE end. My suggestion would be keeping the functionality as it currently is for PvP, and adding some bonus damage for that hit in PvE.

This suggestion is basically an Order of Unblockability, that seems quite powerful in the right situations? It isn't the ideal skill for every situation, of course... but nothing is. What if this skill added +crit% to the first hit, scaling like GFTE... that might be a nice bonus.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lanier

Crippling Anthem also seems very underwhelming for PvE. My suggestion would be to keep its current functionality for PvE and add another couple of conditions (weakness and deep wound seem good) for PvE. Stance removal is very niche, and not particularly elite worthy.

Crippling in general is more useful in PvP so this skill isn't the most useful in PvE... but that's okay, each skill has its proper place. I had considered weakness as well, but I thought the stance removal aspect made the skill more unique; no one else can do this. Applying mass deep wound would be overpowered imo.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lanier

I really would like to see Angelic bond's original functionality returned, except at an energy cost and recharge both of 5. It was useful in its own unique way, and allowed for an interesting angelic protection build. Why anet nerfed it in the first place is beyond me.

It was nerfed because in PvP it was an unstrippable take-half-damage prot that made allies very hard to kill. In PvE it was outshined by skills such as Life Barrier and even the non-elite Life Bond. Sorry I was never a fan of the original skill, and I can see why Anet changed it. Aside from all that, single-target protection skills do not fit the paragon theme in my opinion... their protection should extend to everyone in earshot. Monks and ritualists should have single-target protection with stronger effects, that way these professions can all be useful in their own ways. Anyway as you can see, my ideas for Angelic Bond are party-wide protection that emulates existing skills like Shelter and Shielding Hands. Angelic Protection is a single target version of the same thing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lanier

Anyway, thats my initial 2 cents. I already think that paragon spear damage is fine so i'm not going to bother with those skills.

We will have to agree to disagree on this.

By the way I added some suggestions for Incoming and Help Me, I'd appreciate input on those as well.

Lanier · Jul 24, 2011, 04:15 AM // 04:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Khomet Si Netjer

I won't argue that but I don't see how nerfing SY will help the paragon, instead it will only remove one of the only "viable" roles the paragon has... and as you have pointed out, SY is a warrior skill.

Well, ideally the SY nerf would accompany the paragon update (if it ever comes...). As such, it wouldn't matter so much that it was the only viable build because paragons would have so many other viable builds.

As for angelic bond, what you point out is exactly what I liked about it. It was different, and allowed for a completely unique and different build (and a fun/effective one at that, should its energy cost and recharge have been reduced). While your idea is kinda cool, I liked the former functionality too.

Incoming: I never was a fan of party-wide movement boosts, and would probably never use incoming unless its functionality were drastically altered. Command elites right now are all very weak in PvE, and while your suggestions do slightly buff them, I dont think any of the three command elites recieve the type of boost that would make them useful in PvE. For incoming, I have always been in favor of returning to a functionality similar to the original, but with a weaker damage reduction and a slightly larger duration (or lower recharge). As for crippling anthem, you're right that not every condition is useful in PvE. That is why I suggested adding on weakness, deep wound, or probably both in the PvE setting. It probably still wouldn't be particularly useful, as not that many people use conditions aside from enfeebling wound's weakness. Still, I think it would make crippling anthem useful in some regard, and it fits with the name (crippling an opponent could very well mean that you are inflicting cripple in addition to other, debilitating conditions).

As for Anthem of Guidance... well I dont know. I just don't think that it is really the paragon's job to give order-like buffs. In my opinion, paragon offensive buffs should be like they currently are - single "bursts" of damage, unblockability, conditions, etc. as opposed to +dmg or unblockability over time, which is more of a necro's job. The + crit chance is an interesting idea though. Maybe make it so that (in PvE) it adds unblockability and either a +crit chance or + a small amount of bonus damage (like 1...10 bonus damage). In PvP, its probably fine as it currently is.

I like the idea for Help Me. Paragons definitely need some cheap, defensive shout for maintaining skills like soldier's fury (warriors get one), and Help me would be an ideal skill to change for this purpose. My only hesitation is that the health gain seems a little high for a cheap, maintainable skill. I believe the numbers that you currently have for that skill equal about 7 pips of health regen, right? For something that is cheap and constant, 4 pips (or the equivelent) seems more balanced.

I missed that part of Brace Yourself's skill description. In that case, it seems like a balanced idea for me, especially when you keep in mind that the AI likes to move and that, in PvP, bulls strike would still get through it.

EDIT: I just now saw enduring harmony and it seems a tad bit OP. Keep in mind that vocal was sogolon costs 10 energy and prevents you from attacking (this is a pretty big downside).

Khomet Si Netjer · Jul 25, 2011, 09:17 PM // 21:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lanier

Incoming: I never was a fan of party-wide movement boosts, and would probably never use incoming unless its functionality were drastically altered. Command elites right now are all very weak in PvE, and while your suggestions do slightly buff them, I dont think any of the three command elites recieve the type of boost that would make them useful in PvE. For incoming, I have always been in favor of returning to a functionality similar to the original, but with a weaker damage reduction and a slightly larger duration (or lower recharge). As for crippling anthem, you're right that not every condition is useful in PvE. That is why I suggested adding on weakness, deep wound, or probably both in the PvE setting. It probably still wouldn't be particularly useful, as not that many people use conditions aside from enfeebling wound's weakness. Still, I think it would make crippling anthem useful in some regard, and it fits with the name (crippling an opponent could very well mean that you are inflicting cripple in addition to other, debilitating conditions).

I have added your suggestion for Crippling Anthem (causes both crippling and weakness) to the page, I think it is a good alternative. Please let me know if I misunderstood your intent.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lanier

As for Anthem of Guidance... well I dont know. I just don't think that it is really the paragon's job to give order-like buffs. In my opinion, paragon offensive buffs should be like they currently are - single "bursts" of damage, unblockability, conditions, etc. as opposed to +dmg or unblockability over time, which is more of a necro's job. The + crit chance is an interesting idea though. Maybe make it so that (in PvE) it adds unblockability and either a +crit chance or + a small amount of bonus damage (like 1...10 bonus damage). In PvP, its probably fine as it currently is.

I have to disagree with you here, I think the Orders-like buffs are exactly what the paragon needs... the paragon was clearly designed to buff physical attackers, but necromancers are much better at it because Orders apply to every hit. This means that Orders are up to 6 times stronger than paragon anthems since Anthem of Envy and Order of Pain / OotV deliver similar damage. The same problem exists with skills from other professions such as Strength and Honor, Judge's Insight, Brutal Weapon and Splinter Weapon; these last for multiple hits and deliver much more damage than the paragon can achieve with anthems. Thus it is no wonder that people do not consider paragons for physical damage buffing, as they are simply not able to compete... they were designed to buff attacking characters but they are unable to perform well in this role due to skill balance problems.

Anyway, I added +crit chance to Anthem of Guidance as an added bonus to make it a little more attractive.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lanier

I like the idea for Help Me. Paragons definitely need some cheap, defensive shout for maintaining skills like soldier's fury (warriors get one), and Help me would be an ideal skill to change for this purpose. My only hesitation is that the health gain seems a little high for a cheap, maintainable skill. I believe the numbers that you currently have for that skill equal about 7 pips of health regen, right? For something that is cheap and constant, 4 pips (or the equivelent) seems more balanced.

I don't really think the numbers are imbalanced at all... they are taken directly from the health gain of Incoming and Fall Back, the difference is that Help Me only affects the user. Some other self healing skills grant 150+ health immediately whereas this might grant 150 health over 10 seconds; those other healing skills have an activation time and possibly some other drawback, Help Me spreads this healing out over time but it has instant activation. Mystic Regeneration, Shadow Refuge, and Restful Breeze are some other skills which grant very high health regeneration for minimal cost.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lanier

I missed that part of Brace Yourself's skill description. In that case, it seems like a balanced idea for me, especially when you keep in mind that the AI likes to move and that, in PvP, bulls strike would still get through it.

EDIT: I just now saw enduring harmony and it seems a tad bit OP. Keep in mind that vocal was sogolon costs 10 energy and prevents you from attacking (this is a pretty big downside).

re: Brace Yourself, you are right, it would not give any protection from Bull's Strike though it might help against other things (eg. Horns of the Ox, Gale)

re: Enduring Harmony, the skill I am trying to emulate is Vocal Was Sogolon, however VwS is really unsuitable for the paragon in anything but a gimmick build. Paragons that cannot attack can't gain adrenaline barring the use of other skills like Make Your Time and Signet of Aggression, and holding ashes means that the paragon's shield is useless as well. So while VwS is the most similar to the effect I want to achieve, I decided to base the scaling on Blessed Aura instead. This skill increases the duration of monk enchantments by 10..30..35% and stacks with +enchantment mods. I also realized that a flat 33% duration increase could be abused by non-paragons because they could activate Enduring Harmony and then quickly activate a few shouts all at +33% duration. This is how Deadly Paradox is used in conjunction with Shadow Form, the scaling doesn't matter at all because it only has to be up when you renew Shadow Form. I want to make this a skill for primary Paragons so it makes sense to change the scaling to be more like Blessed Aura. Thanks for making me reconsider.

iToasterHD · Jul 25, 2011, 09:58 PM // 21:58

I am curious if a unique scaling system would help with some of the issues with skills quickly becoming overpowered. For example, the strength of the skill is in direct proportion to the distance from the Paragon. Such that those standing directly around the Paragon get a much stronger effect than those further off. This would allow for mid-back liners helping casters, or mid-front liners assisting melee.

And as for the multiple Paragon conundrum, I believe it was already mentioned that only one shout can be done at a time (which intuitively makes sense) and is reminiscent of spirits from the Ritualist. Multiple Paragons merely have to work together to make sure their shouts, chants, etc aren't duplicated and everyone is happy.

As for my above idea, I don't play PvP but I am enjoying the idea of a Paragon acting as a safe house or damage multiplier. You would see people following closely to Paragons, and is easily disrupted by AoE.

KotCR · Jul 26, 2011, 12:18 AM // 00:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lanier

Brace Yourself: seems a little too powerful. I would suggest making it end on each individual ally after one KD. Maybe decrease the recharge slightly too. I know you are trying to compare it to ward of stability, but remember that the ward only works on allies within its area, and that area isn't very large.

I agree with this, the suggestion is too powerful. Having it end after a single-knockdown would be fine.

I understand the comparison with Ward of Stabiltiy, but;
Ward of Stability won't follow allies out of the AoE if the battlefield moves. This, being a shout, would.
Ward of Stability has a casting time. Shouts are instant.
Of course, adjust numbers to compensate, so that you can use it slightly more often than Ward of Stability or something.

As for the Command Elites, I've been using them myself in PvE alot recently (mostly due to lack of anything better to bring with the way I'm specced), and I agree the 4-adrenaline cost elite chants could do with a bit more incentive to use.

Anthem of Guidance is clearly an anti-block skill. Making it end stances too IMO would be logical, as stances are often used for blocking. Many stance removal skills state that they are an unblockable attack. Perhaps up the adrenaline cost slightly.
Then it'd be like Forceful Blow for the whole party, but still balanced as it'd have two disadvantages to Forceful Blow - it wouldn't cause any extra damage, and it wouldn't case Weakness, and one extra advantage - the fact it's an adrenaline chant means it's energy management for the Paragon too. That's always something to keep in mind when it comes to Paragon adrenaline Shouts and Chants, there's always that hidden bonus.

I also agree Crippling Anthem is underwhelming for PvE. I agree with the suggestion of giving it something extra. My idea would basically be to make it an elite version of Anthem of Envy. Up it's adrenaline cost to 6, and give it the same bonus damage alongside the Crippling as Anthem of Envy. Perhaps remove the over 50% HP conditional for the damage if it still felt underwhelming. Many elite skills tend to do three things these days, so this ones would be: Energy Management (indirectly through Leadership), Crippling, Bonus Damage.

As for some of the other, more functional, but still incentiveless or underperforming skills...

Incoming! could do with it's old functionality again TBH, nobody needs an almost identical elite Fallback!, though I understand why it was changed. I could see it working as a skill similiar to Aegis (PvP) though, as some sort of short Omega prot, which would be alot closer to it's original functionality and actually make it useful again. You could avoid the chaining-issue by making it only affect a single-target (it would still have it's uses then), though it'd have to be a little stronger than Aegis (PvP) to compensate for it's elite status. Perhaps change it's cost to Adrenaline instead of energy, with a cooldown to prevent spamming with Adrenaline boosts.

I would also like to see Angelic bond's original functionality returned, as it was unique before and now it's just a poor man's Divine Intervention, without the ability to cast it in the very last second to actually get the effect to trigger. Though I do also like some of Khomet's suggestions for this skill.

Also agreed on some changes need to be made to Aggressive Refrain; It's actually one of the weakest IaS in the game IMO, not just because of the cost, but the -20AL really hurts when you can't end it whenever you please like a Warrior can with Frenzy, especially for a class with almost no self-defense skills. It pretty much makes Paragons easier to kill than any other class in the game - even casters, who tend to have strong defensive skills that don't get in the way of having an effective skill bar - but is a compulsory skill for Paragon damage and adrenaline levels to reach a reasonable and working standard so you have to bring it if you are locked into something other than /Wa.

I have quite alot of ideas for many Paragon skills though to bring them up to workable and respectable standards, without so many drastic changes as some of Khomet's suggestions, and hopefully without making them too powerful. I'll have to bring them all up at some point.

Quote:

Originally Posted by iToasterHD

I don't play PvP but I am enjoying the idea of a Paragon acting as a safe house or damage multiplier.

I agree, I also like this idea. Infact it's probably the reason Paragon is my class of choice; This is exactly what I want, and the Paragon still has some shadow in it left of doing this, albeit ineffectively these days.

It fits the whole Guardian Angel theme, and a couple players still see the Paragon this way. Even in RA, you'll find some Mo/As use the Paragon as their Return point when escaping from enemies, which is how it should be. It's just a shame they can no longer effectively fill this role.

On a somewhat related skill note; Everybody seen the new Shield Guardian for Monks? It's like Ballad of Restoration, except it recharges quicker in PvP, and blocks a couple attacks in addition to the heal, with much more chance of triggering a larger total heal amount. People are complaining that it's still underpowered though. Hehe, yet does anybody think to complain about how the Paragon's similiar skill suffers? Nope lol. I'd kill to have a skill like the new Shield Guardian on my Paragon (inherantly :P), and it suits the class too...

Quote:

Originally Posted by [email protected]!k3

You'd think that the live team would at least do small changes at a time; like the other professions, but when was the last update for any Para skill? I can't even recall.

I believe it was when they changed Mending Refrain (PvP) to cast on-self only and not be usable on other allies, which yes, was a long while ago. A foolish change that I've already covered in some thread somewhere I'm sure; It's kinda exactly what is needed with the Dervish pressure meta right now too. But changing it killed the last effective role a Paragon had in PvP.

I believe in the article they wrote explaining the changes in that build, they even said it was there intention to effectively remove the skill (and therefore, Paragons in general) from PvP though. Figures.

Lets hope the lack of Paragon updates since forever is because they are currently planning and working on the big class overhaul for them instead. Let's hope.

iToasterHD · Jul 26, 2011, 03:34 AM // 03:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by KotCR

Lets hope the lack of Paragon updates since forever is because they are currently planning and working on the big class overhaul for them instead. Let's hope.

Words cannot describe how happy that would make me. All this talk about the Guardian from Guild Wars 2 has me really upset that I cannot play such a role in Guild Wars. It has sort of torn open old wounds, and I want nothing more from Guild Wars than a Paragon.

Khomet Si Netjer · Jul 26, 2011, 07:18 PM // 19:18

Hey guys, tyvm for the input, I have modified the suggestions page accordingly.
I will echo the hope that ArenaNet is working on a rebalance for paragons, we have been waiting a very long time.

-----

(updated 2011-07-26)

Modifications to Awe, Burning Shield, Enduring Harmony, Make Your Time, Natural Temper
increased duration and recharge on some Anthems
added PvP version suggestion for Brace Yourself
added additional suggestion for Incoming
added note about paragon AI

iToasterHD · Jul 27, 2011, 04:28 PM // 16:28

Khomet how do you suggest they tackle the problem with multiple Paragons? Or the fact that something like "Go for their eyes!" offers unlimited energy given its reliance on adrenaline and the current state of leadership?

Khomet Si Netjer · Jul 27, 2011, 09:29 PM // 21:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by iToasterHD

Khomet how do you suggest they tackle the problem with multiple Paragons? Or the fact that something like "Go for their eyes!" offers unlimited energy given its reliance on adrenaline and the current state of leadership?

re: multiple paragons, I think the problem you are referring to is the way that paragons buff each other. This is certainly true, but paragons buff *everyone*, not just other paragons. I hardly ever see other paragons in PvE or PvP, which would seem to indicate that the impression of "overpowered" multi-paragon groups does not reflect reality... after all, if multiple paragons were that powerful wouldn't people be using them? Instead, people are using things that truly ARE overpowered such as multiple ritualists, necromancers, or mesmers, or dervishes.

You talk about the energy gain from adrenaline shouts + leadership as if it were overpowered or unbalanced in some way, but I don't think agree with that assessment. In order to get energy back from adrenaline shouts and leadership, you need all of the following: attribute investment, skill slots for adrenaline shouts, nearby allies, adrenaline, the ability to attack (to build adrenaline), and the ability to shout (some skills can prevent the paragon from doing this). Even if all conditions are met, the paragon still has to do something (activate a skill) to gain energy.
Contrast this with the ranger, necromancer and dervish... their energy management requires no skill slots and there is no way to shut it down. I think that the paragon's energy management system is very similar to the assassin; both professions get energy back from doing what they normally do, and I don't think they are overpowered, especially when compared to other professions.

I think that the changes I have suggested would help the game in several ways.

Chaining: many of the (formerly) powerful anthems and chants would provide a strong benefit that triggered once within a short time window. After the skill triggers, it ends. Examples: Song of Restoration, Ballad of Restoration, Anthem of Flame, Anthem of Disruption. This type of skill is balanced by its recharge, but you can defeat that by bringing multiple copies of the skill and chaining them. Most of the suggestions I made for anthems and chants provide benefits over time (whether the benefit is healing, energy, damage, unblockability, etc.) and this eliminates the chaining problem completely; the benefit is drawn out over a longer period of time instead of being one large burst of healing/energy/etc., and because the chants have a duration, any additional copies of the skill are useless because they would simply refresh what is already in effect. So I think the key to fixing this problem is benefits-over-time rather than the single-shot nature of many existing paragon chants.

Shutdown: One of my suggestions is that Daze should prevent paragons from using shouts and make chants/anthems/songs/arias/etc. easily interrupted as if they were spells. The Daze condition used to be called "silenced" and having Daze affect paragons would alleviate many of the complaints of paragon skills being uninterruptible or unstoppable, since the anti-paragon skills like Vocal Minority and Roaring Winds are too focused to be useful against the other professions. In any event paragons are already easier to shut down than other physical professions and Daze would add to that. I think it makes sense though.

Conditions: In another thread on gwguru there were a lot of people complaining about the new Dervishes and how 'overpowered' they are. I brought up the fact that the new dervish is a combination damage and condition spreading machine, and that the paragon is perfect for countering this... skills like Stand Your Ground, Defensive Anthem, Song of Restoration and Ballad of Restoration counter the damage, and skills like Song of Purification, Finale of Purification, Cautery Signet, and Never Surrender reduce or eliminate the pressure from conditions. The fundamental problem is that the new dervish is able to spread conditions even better than the ranger, and this problem is made worse by condition spreading skills like Fevered Dreams. There is no way for conventional healers (monk, rit) to keep up with the condition spam, since their condition removal (at best) removals all conditions from one target. Put simply, it costs more energy to remove the conditions than it costs to spread them, and over time the healer will get pressured out. The paragon is a perfect counter to this but no one uses them in PvP anymore because they have been nerfed so badly. Buffing the skills back into usefulness would not harm PvP, rather I think it will help to fix some of the problems we are currently seeing with dervishes.

Anyway that is my $0.02.