Curse

Khomet Si Netjer · Jan 14, 2012, 07:52 PM // 19:52

Hello fellow paragons... I developed the Burning Barrage build last year and I have spent some optimizing a team of heroes to support it. Things work even better after the recent hardmode/elementalist update since Burning Refrain triggers more often and all of the AoE skills (Barrage, Searing Flames, etc.) do more damage than before. In any case here is something to do while we wait for the paragon skills to be updated, I hope you enjoy it.

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/User:Khomet/Flameway

related threads:
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/User:...urning_Barrage
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/b...t10481050.html
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/i...t10489489.html

WarcryOfTruth · Jan 14, 2012, 08:33 PM // 20:33

Khomet, I love your builds, I've used something similar to this too. I didn't have the RoJ, or Shared Burden, instead I had 3 Searing Flames, all running different secondaries for different roles, and Psychic Instability. It worked just as effectively as yours, but I love the variation, but maybe we could get together and share what we have and maybe combine/improve.

I Rahavan I · Jan 14, 2012, 08:57 PM // 20:57

all I have to say is

I love this build thank you!

ultimak719 · Jan 14, 2012, 10:12 PM // 22:12

It looks awesome, but it might be worth testing it with an Icy Veins Necro Healer instead of your ritualist.

N/rt
Icy Veins
Splinter Wep
Spirit Light
PwK
Life
SoLS
Flesh of my Flesh

Maybe get rid of PwK for Lamentation if you really want it.

http://www.gwpvx.com/Build:N/Rt_SoLS_Healer

chullster · Jan 14, 2012, 11:17 PM // 23:17

Nice to see something different.

Two thing I noticed:
1. No increase attack speed for yourself, it would help barrage activate faster + more damage.
2. The illusion mes has no energy management, in one of your screenshots you can see she's low, has skills available to use and I don't see anyone with any team skills to help that.

Other than that good job.

Lanier · Jan 14, 2012, 11:41 PM // 23:41

Interesting para build. I'v used a barrage build on my para fairly often due to normal para builds being boring as hell. I use a lot more energy management in my one though. It seems to me as though your barrage build would run out of energy fairly quickly in situations where you can't get multiple zealous activations with one barrage. I would definitely replace the ebon vanguard standard, since I don't possibly see how you can manage energy with that skill while spamming barrage and using your energy shouts on recharge. Either anthem of envy or dodge this! could work.

Something else that I do is slot either keen arrow (combines well with gfte) or triple shot in my build so that I have more powerful single-target damage for situations where barrage wouldn't hit multiple targets anyway.

Windwalker64 · Jan 14, 2012, 11:51 PM // 23:51

Awesome build got to try it
Strength of honor on the smite would boost damage by a lot

Lanier · Jan 14, 2012, 11:58 PM // 23:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Windwalker64

Awesome build got to try it
Strength of honor on the smite would boost damage by a lot

uh, you do know that SoH only affects melee attacks, right?

Voodoo Rage · Jan 15, 2012, 02:05 AM // 02:05

I still just feel naked not having a minion army running around with me.

Also, it seems like a lot of the burning skills are a bit redundant. Don't the dual searing flames ele's pretty much keep everyone burning already? Thanks again for giving me an excuse to dust off my paragon.

Essence Snow · Jan 15, 2012, 02:41 AM // 02:41

nice to see some originality

The one thing I'll note speccing over the req of a bow tbh is not worth it...the attris could be more usefull elsewhere...ie spec 12 in marks for barrage is not worth it...spec 9 and distribue the points in command.

Khomet Si Netjer · Jan 15, 2012, 05:20 AM // 05:20

thanks for the kind words everyone.

@warcry: anytime! RoJ has the advantage of causing armor ignoring damage, and I wanted Smiting anyway because of Judge's Insight... Searing Flames is much more spammable though, not sure which is better.

@ultimak719: Splinter Weapon is much much better on a primary ritualist.
splinter @ 16 does 4 x 53 x 5 = 1060 damage if you can hit at least 5 targets. (it's bugged, it delivers damage to 4 adjacent targets instead of 3)
A secondary rit will probably have 10 channeling, and splinter @ 10 is only 4 x 35 x 4 = 560 damage. If you are using a Grail this hero can reach 17 channeling, which hits the next breakpoint for Splinter Weapon... 4 x 56 x 6 = 1344 armor ignoring damage, not counting the damage from barrage. Splinter is the main reason to bring this hero so it's important to get channeling as high as possible.

@chullster: you are right, there isn't any IAS, no slots available for it... on this build you can use rock candy, pumpkin pie, etc. to get IAS, it isn't really necessary though. the illusion mesmer can operate without much energy because of signets, but I have had the same thoughts about it... more emgmt might help here.

@lanier: energy is fine, I don't even use a zealous bow with this. a good barrage charges GFTE fully with every shot so you are actually gaining energy with each barrage. Glowing Signet also gets you quite a bit. Don't waste energy with EBSOH , Barrage, etc. if there are only one or two targets left and energy is not a problem. It does take some getting used to though.
I use a vampiric shortbow for faster attack speed and more damage, and a sundering longbow for pulling dangerous groups. Pulling tends to make the enemy ball up, especially if you use terrain to help. Other groups naturally ball up, I love it when they do that.

@voodoo: one can never have too much burnin' love...

searing flames does damage if targets are already burning so nothing is wasted. besides that, if you want the damage resistance from They're On Fire you have to make sure that everything is burning all the time.

@essence snow: thanks

command is not really important for this build, the barrager is the only physical attacker and thus GFTE is more for energy than damage. can't use a shield either so command has little use here, i'd rather have 12 marksmanship and get more damage from Barrage.

Voodoo Rage · Jan 15, 2012, 06:55 AM // 06:55

Yeah, I'm playing around with this build concept and I agree, you need more burning than just the searing flames ele's. I did struggle a bit in the burning forest of Sacnoth Valley as nothing burns there, so it the team does depend a lot on areas where you CAN set foes on fire. It's a really nice paragon build. Any reason why Aggressive Refrain isn't thrown on the bar? Wouldn't the IAS outperform I Am The Strongest?

I'm still a little leary about dumping my beloved MM for a smiting monk though. It does seem like without a minion wall, there is a tendency for mobs to just wander apart.

Essence Snow · Jan 15, 2012, 02:17 PM // 14:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Khomet Si Netjer

@essence snow: thanks

command is not really important for this build, the barrager is the only physical attacker and thus GFTE is more for energy than damage. can't use a shield either so command has little use here, i'd rather have 12 marksmanship and get more damage from Barrage.

The difference between spec 9 marks and spec 12 barrage is only 3 dmg while the difference between spec 4 command and spec 10 is 28%. The 28% added chance of crit will do more dmg over time (i think...pretty early and hung over atm)

Chthon · Jan 15, 2012, 09:37 PM // 21:37

Afraid I have little but criticism. Hopefully you will find some of it useful.

1. Your only significant damage mitigation is coming from "They're on Fire," TNtF, SYG, and weakness. That's really inadequate. Frankly, I'm amazed that you were able to finish the zones you were able to finish. I'd suggest dropping one of the bad heroes (I'll flag them as I go by) for a ST-Shelter or ER-Prot-Infuse.

2. Player build:
2.a. Do you really need Glowing Signet?
2.b. Burning Refrain is redundant.
2.c. IAtS is an awful, awful skill. I'd say to replace with Dodge This, but worry a little about anti-synergy with GftE. If Dodge This won't work, look at just about every other PvE skill before going back to IAtS.

3. Smiter.
3.1. This build is crap. Drop it entirely.
3.2. Damage is awful.
3.2.1. RoJ is likely to miss when you let heroes aim it, and has a 20sec recharge.
3.2.2. Smite stuff is undirected and inconsistent damage.
3.2.3. Judge's Insight is only conditionally useful in the context of lots of undead.
3.3. Command shouts can go on lots of other builds.

4. Hybrid Rit
4.1. Clamor is not a bad skill per se, now that lightning damage doesn't suck anymore, but it does less damage than SoS and doesn't offer the opportunity for energy gain that you have with SoS+Siphon. Replace with SoS
4.2. Lamentation is a joke. Replace with Siphon.
4.3. Recovery isn't bad, but usefulness is questionable if MBS is removing 4 conditions at a pop (3 from SoS + Life). Most people would suggest changing it for PwK.
5. If this build gets a rez, it should by FomF. It's going to revive with higher hp and (at 13 resto) higher energy than a Sig of Return at 0 leadership, with a faster cast time too.

5. SF builds.
5.1. These do not have enough energy management.
5.2. These do not have enough energy management.
5.3. In case you somehow missed it: These do not have enough energy management.
5.4. You definitely do not need 2x Enfeebling Blood. You probably do not need 2X Weaken Armor or Earthen Shackles.
5.5 So the solution is: SPLIT THE BUILDS.
5.5.1. On one build, drop the curses stuff, reassign the points to ES and maybe a little to earth, add Glowing Gaze, and add Mark of Rodgort (which will smooth out burning durations so that SF is always hitting for damage (and do a better job of it than all the other non-SF burning skills you've got currently put together)).
5.5.2. On the other build, drop Earthen Shackles, reassign the points to ES and maybe to curses, and add Glowing Gaze.
5.6 Meteor is really questionable.

6. The dom mes
6.1. This build is just really bad. You can skip reading the rest of my comments and just use Jeydra's dom mes if you want to save time.
6.2. Mirror of Disenchant and Complicate both need large homogeneous mobs to justify their recharges. Niche use only. Additionally, you should be killing things fast enough that Complicate is always going to be dubious in PvE.
6.3. Enchanter's Conundrum is only worthwhile if monsters have no ability to cast enchants at all or you've got a deep strip (and even then, heroes may not be smart enough to lead EC with the deep strip (which, you don't have anyway)). Run Panic or E-Surge if Panic isn't needed for survivability.
6.4. Shatter Delusions would be good if you had shatter-bait hexes in the team build or if the AI was smart enough to shatter sticky hexes at the last moment, but you don't and it isn't, so don't use it.
7. CoF is fine, but this build doesn't have the energy to support it on top of all the other expensive stuff it has.

8. Ill mes.
8.1. This build is also crap. Drop it entirely. Possibly for another SF (probably paragon secondary for FB). Or a THunderclapper (in which case the curses SF needs to change). Or minions.
8.2. Mirror, same issue as above.
8.3. Fragility isn't very useful here since burning shouldn't be starting or ending very often. The only thing triggering it is going to be the crap condition skills on this bar.
8.4. Shared Burden is not going to stack the snare effect with Earthen Shackles, so it's really just a crappier version of Arcane Conundrum. If you really want to keep the Ill build, change this to Fevered Dreams (and bring better condition skills like Steam and Accumulated Pain, and then you could keep Frag).
8.5. Causing bleeding + poison is pretty worthless in any case since degen is wimpy. But it's especially worthless here since you've already got -7 degen from the burning, so over half the effect from bleeding + poison is going to be wasted. [Edit: I forgot the degen from Lamentation (which you should be removing anyway), which just makes bleeding + poison even more redundant.]
8.6. The weakness on Oppressive Gaze is redundant with EB, and the poison is worthless for the reason given above, so drop it.
8.7. Blood Ritual won't be neccesary if you fix the energy problems within the other builds.

9. The healer.
9.1. This looks OK for a pure redbarup healer.
9.2. Not sure you really need a pure redbarup healer. You'd probably be better off with some mitigation (see #1) hybridized with some healing. Unfortunately, HBurst hybrids aren't possible for heroes because there's not enough attribute points for speccing inspiration, and not enough energy without it. (Player builds can use PvE skills for energy management.)
9.3. IV+resto is a comparable pure redbarup healer that also does damage. You might want to look at that.

--------

Quote:

Originally Posted by Essence Snow

The difference between spec 9 marks and spec 12 barrage is only 3 dmg while the difference between spec 4 command and spec 10 is 28%. The 28% added chance of crit will do more dmg over time (i think...pretty early and hung over atm)

Base damage on the bow. Of course the 12 is better for DPS.

Kunder · Jan 15, 2012, 11:08 PM // 23:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

Afraid I have little but criticism. Hopefully you will find some of it useful.

1. Your only significant damage mitigation is coming from "They're on Fire," TNtF, SYG, and weakness. That's really inadequate. Frankly, I'm amazed that you were able to finish the zones you were able to finish. I'd suggest dropping one of the bad heroes (I'll flag them as I go by) for a ST-Shelter or ER-Prot-Infuse.

Assuming most enemies are on fire, you have 58% damage reduction against all damage, with SYG bumping that up to 72% vs armor respecting damage. I don't think prot is a problem outside of elite areas (or HM nuking bosses that you don't take care in aggroing). Eventually TNtF wears off, but hopefully 12s into a battle your opponent's DPS has waned enough that it won't be a problem.

Your other points though I mostly agree on. Most of the hero builds seem to be taking random attribute lines that should be really powerful, but then stuffing 3 or 4 poor skills on the bar for not much good reason. I mean, Lamentation? Meteor? OPPRESSIVE GAZE? I would rather have an empty skill slot than take these skills, all they do is sap useful energy and casting time that should be directed towards the good skills of the build.

Voodoo Rage · Jan 15, 2012, 11:53 PM // 23:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

2. Player build:
2.a. Do you really need Glowing Signet?
2.b. Burning Refrain is redundant.
2.c. IAtS is an awful, awful skill. I'd say to replace with Dodge This, but worry a little about anti-synergy with GftE. If Dodge This won't work, look at just about every other PvE skill before going back to IAtS.

I've been playing around with his build. Glowing Signet is too good to pass up, it's a crapload of free energy to let you afford expensive stuff like Ebon Battle Standard of Honor. As I noted earlier, the burning from the Searing Flames ele's does not seem consistent enough to keep everything on fire. The Burning Refrain skill is pretty much free (other than the skill slot) because it seems to stay up all the time, especially if you are running Fall Back on your heroes somewhere. I agree that IATS is sort of meh... I still feel like you can replace it with Aggressive Refrain to keep your attack speed up (again, the echos seem to stay up fine).

I did not go with his actual hero builds as I saw a lot of the same flaws you did. I'm been going with a fairly meta-ish team build with:

SoS / Restoration Rit Healer
Icy Veins Necro Healer

Dual Mesmers (Panic/Dom and Ineptitude/Illusion)

Dual Searing Flames Eles with Fall Back (Energy CAN be a bit tight during a battle though)

Basic AoTL Minion Bomber / Protection (sorry, just can't not have him)

Haven't tried anything particularly elite yet (vanquished Sacnoth Valley), but it seems pretty solid so far.

HigherMinion · Jan 16, 2012, 12:56 AM // 00:56

If you do not need the Burning from SF, then why not use Elemental Attunement+MoR?

Axel Zinfandel · Jan 16, 2012, 07:47 AM // 07:47

Trying to touch on things Chthon didn't say..

Player Build:
-Glowing Signet does seem a bit overkill. With high Leadership, ToF costs 2 energy and TNTF costs 7. GTFE is a net of 8 energy that you should be able to use after every good attack, as well as a zealous bow if things get tight.

Mo/P
-Smiting builds are pretty meh if you aren't bringing SoH for melee. The /P is nice, but you might get better use in support if you bring something else. Song of Purification Paragon is especially useful, since it's pretty much party immunity to conditions.

Rt/P
-I'd probably look to replace this hero, but It's not terrible. You could probably go N/Rt to a better extend and take FomF, while throwing the Enfeeble Blood/Weaken Armor from the SF eles on for reasons I will get to later.
-EB/WA are pretty useful even near low attribute, so spreading a Channelling/Resto/Soul Reaping with a few points in Curses won't be too bad.

SF eles
-Don't put low recharge skills on an SF bar. The more non-maintained skills OTHER than SF on a hero bar, the less they'll use SF.. and since the main goal of this build is to keep people burning, you'll want to do that.
-Earthen Shackles conflicts with Shared burden, but since SB is kinda bad and considering my previous statement, I'd remove both.

Dom mesmer
-I don't like the build either. I'd be tempted to say a Water ele with Shatterstone and its' very appealing AoE now, and throw some snares on there.
-This is prime spot for more synergy, TBH. I'm always tempted to want to throw more paragons on top of team-builds using paragons, because frankly it just works well.

Ill Mesmer
-Same as the other. Aside from what Chthon said, a lot of the skills here are just going to waste, and Mirror is far to situational to staple to the build. If you're expecting to face Aegis maybe.

Mo/Me
-A lot of this can be done in more creative ways. Healing burst is nice if you're assuming damage mitigation from ToF + TNTF.
-SS/SM is meh. VS in execution should probably be Blood Bond on someone else instead. I GUESS overlap won't hurt, but...

Overall:
-I'm very curious as to why you're the only physical dealer. The entire team build seems like a less-stellar team build for a caster player rather than a physical.
-Do barrage paragon heroes not work? Because that might be even more fun and effective than SF eles while having awesome paragon synergy.
-I might be bias, but paragons compliment paragons, and physicals compliment physicals. Being a physical damage dealer on a team that seems more for a caster player is weird. If barrage Paragons work, the possibility of bringing more, and/or R/Ps invokes more a reason to use Orders, which means better damage across the board.

Googi · Jan 16, 2012, 09:18 AM // 09:18

Agreed with what you said except this:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Axel Zinfandel

Rt/P
-I'd probably look to replace this hero, but It's not terrible. You could probably go N/Rt to a better extend and take FomF, while throwing the Enfeeble Blood/Weaken Armor from the SF eles on for reasons I will get to later.
-EB/WA are pretty useful even near low attribute, so spreading a Channelling/Resto/Soul Reaping with a few points in Curses won't be too bad.

Splinter @ 16 is too good to pass on, EB/WA can be placed on a curses Necro which can replace the smiter.

Lanier · Jan 16, 2012, 04:10 PM // 16:10

Glowing Sig is definitely necessary, as spamming barrage is going to be energy intensive even with a zealous bow. You aren't always going to hit 3-4 enemies, and when you aren't, your energy is going to drop fast. Thats why I suggested replacing EVSoH with another skill like dodge this.