Curse

βlitzkrieg · Apr 21, 2005, 03:10 AM // 03:10

Hi guys,

I'm definately taking necromancer as primary class.

Only I'm not 100% on my secondary.

So, first, what do you think goes well with Necromancer?

I'm thinking either Warrior or Ranger. I tried Mesmer, and think they suck, I prefer to deal damage, not piss around.

Warrior Pro's:
- Do some nice close up damage.
- Most of the better Necromancer skills are touches anyway, so may as well be up there

Con's
- As secondary class, I can't take armour, so will be hit alot.

Ranger Pro's
- Distance is almight, I'll be able to deal nice damage, and keep out of the hits.
- Pets! Very usefull.
- Attunement to nature skills come in handy for healing, etc.

Con's
- The better Necromancer spell's are touches, so no point in hanging back.

What do you think, advice, and what should I take as secondary?

I'm probably leaning towards Renger, but advice and opinions are much appreciated.

Apr 21, 2005, 03:18 AM // 03:18

Is the necro for PvE or PvP?

March Hare · Apr 21, 2005, 03:21 AM // 03:21

Do you want to be offence or defence?

Ensign · Apr 21, 2005, 04:00 AM // 04:00

Congratulations, you've chosen to play the worst class in the game! Here are some tips on making your experience a good deal more enjoyable.

1). Learn to love PvE. This should be obvious by now, but it bears repeating. You'll stand around for an hour in tombs before getting an invite, and once you do it'll be a henchie team that goes down in the first round. Play where you can get parties. A well built Necromancer is an asset in PvE, not a liability. Take advantage.

2). Learn to love your minions. Let's be blunt - your damage sucks, your armor sucks, you're just some pasty white dude with a wand. You need a wall of guys in front of you to both kill things and protect yourself. So get that Death Magic up. 16 from a superior rune is a good start. A staff with +1 to Animate Bone Horror wouldn't be a bad idea, either.

3). Pick a secondary that will actually help the team. Running up front is just going to get you killed. Bow skills are awful without Expertise. Don't even think about making a Necromancer/Mesmer. Either take an Elementalist secondary to supply some supporting fire - and drain your energy quickly - or take care of your teammates with healing and protection. Given that you're going to be strapped for attribute points, you're much better off with the latter, but both are acceptable.

4). Don't just stand there, do something useful! Part of playing a Necromancer involves standing there babysitting your minions, while gaining a good amount of energy from things dying and energy regeneration. I know you're just a pasty white placeholder that minions come out of, but try to be productive. Use protections to guard the party, pile on some additional damage, buff people up - just do something. You don't get a bonus for being able to go to the bathroom mid fight without missing anything. Use that energy.

If you follow this advise, you can overcome the inherent suckiness of the Necromancer and actually help your team win! A good sample build was posted by Freyas in the Necromancer thread. Once most Necromancers look more like that one and less like the standard Necromancer/Mesmer Tainted Flesh piles, Necromancers might shed their stigma as a 'scrub class'.

Good luck.

Peace,
-CxE

Nascent · Apr 21, 2005, 04:10 AM // 04:10

Bleh, I hardly think its fair to say they're the worst class in the game. I quite enjoy my Necromancer, who also happens to have MESMER as his secondary. I don't die nearly as often as you make it sound like I would, and I dont even rely on minions.

Frankly I died more as a Necromancer/Warrior.

βlitzkrieg · Apr 21, 2005, 05:00 AM // 05:00

Worst class in the game?!?!

Mesmer anyday, which is why I wouldn't dream of taking one.

Necromancers can deal some of the most ammounts of damage in the game. I don't plan on fighting up close, thus why I'm probably going to take ranger (the meaning of this thread). I have played BWE's with Necromancer, and they dont get hit that often. Plus, when you can draw 45 health at level 8 on an enemy, its not a big thing.

tektonik · Apr 21, 2005, 06:03 AM // 06:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by βlitzkrieg

Worst class in the game?!?!

Mesmer anyday, which is why I wouldn't dream of taking one.

Necromancers can deal some of the most ammounts of damage in the game. I don't plan on fighting up close, thus why I'm probably going to take ranger (the meaning of this thread). I have played BWE's with Necromancer, and they dont get hit that often. Plus, when you can draw 45 health at level 8 on an enemy, its not a big thing.

Mesmer is the strongest class in the game if you knew how to play.

Ensign has it: If you take necro primary you better learn to love PvE. Why you ask? What sort of weird conspiriacy is going on stopping you from picking necro primary for PvP? Nothing. but you wanted help and that is what we are trying to give you.

Soul Reaping to put it nicely sucks in PvP. By the time it is of any use the battle is already decided and your extra 4 spells won't matter. Plain and Simple. So why take Necro primary?

Next Necro/Ranger is the WORST combo in the game. Why? You are paying full cost for ranger skills and necro spells that cost 2 sec or more to cast. You won't have a focus and wand out so you have base mana and regen. /cry

You don't get hit that often? You are absolutely correct. Want to know why? I don't fear you because you can't kill me alone and have little support to your team - rend which you probably think sucks anyways so I win.

Xellos · Apr 21, 2005, 06:12 AM // 06:12

The Stark Fist really hit home this one XD that was hilarious.

Ensign · Apr 21, 2005, 07:53 AM // 07:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nascent

Bleh, I hardly think its fair to say they're the worst class in the game.

It's more than fair as the contest isn't even close. Necromancer is a class that's used almost exclusively as a secondary for a couple of skills - Rend Enchantments and Shadow of Fear on a Ranger, Offering of Blood on a Monk, and a couple others that I've failed to mention. It's an incredibly shallow class with very specific, niche uses in PvP - the only particularly interesting use of a primary Necromancer is the PvE minionator, which I described above.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nascent

I quite enjoy my Necromancer, who also happens to have MESMER as his secondary.

...do you want a cookie?

I'm sure you enjoy your Necromancer/Mesmer. There are people who can enjoy all sorts of things. However, in this thread I'm giving advise based upon what is *effective*, since what people find fun is so incredibly subjective.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nascent

Frankly I died more as a Necromancer/Warrior.

Perhaps because your Necromancer/Warrior was spending more time standing in harms way, instead of hiding in the back like he was supposed to?

Quote:

Originally Posted by βlitzkrieg

Worst class in the game?!?!

Yep. No contest.

Quote:

Originally Posted by βlitzkrieg

Mesmer anyday, which is why I wouldn't dream of taking one.

If you never step foot into a single PvP instance, yeah. Mesmers are impressively bad in PvE. Don't even consider a Mesmer primary if you're primarily a PvE player, it's a PvP class. Now for PvP? Mesmer is one of the most important classes in the game - only the Monk can claim to be in the same league. Contrast that with the Necromancer, which has one viable, entirely replacable playstyle in PvE, and zero in PvP.

No contest.

Quote:

Originally Posted by βlitzkrieg

Necromancers can deal some of the most ammounts of damage in the game.

Necromancers are tied for fourth on their ability to deal damage to monsters, following Elementalists, Warriors, and Rangers, while being roughly tied with Smiting Monks. They deal better damage than Mesmers, which is to be expected.

In other words, they're incredibly mediocre at dealing damage.

Quote:

Originally Posted by βlitzkrieg

I have played BWE's with Necromancer, and they dont get hit that often.

At the sake of sounding redundant, see points three and four above - how to be useful while cowering in the back.

Quote:

Originally Posted by βlitzkrieg

Plus, when you can draw 45 health at level 8 on an enemy, its not a big thing.

Ah, here's where it starts to get fun. Are we talking about low level DoT Necromancers? Level 5 Necromancers with Vampiric Gazes that are actually fairly scary? I certainly wasn't.

I'm talking about Necromancers that are useful in the long haul. Characters that will be successful in the last missions, in WaW content, ones that you'll want to be playing at level 20 with top notch equipment. Basically, under conditions where you're actually designing builds and not just making due with what's available.

There are a bunch of things that work wonders at low level that simply to not translate into success later on. DoT is one of these. Conjure Phantasm is great against level 1 monsters with 100 HP, and useful against level 6s with 200 HP - but against a level 30 boss with 1,360 HP, DoTs are an utter joke. The same can be said of many other skills and tactics.

In the long run, successful Necromancers will be PvE Death Necromancers. They're the strategy with the depth and power to cut it in the long run. The other options available simply do not have the usefulness, depth, or raw power to matter.

Peace,
-CxE

Xellos · Apr 21, 2005, 08:03 AM // 08:03

Quote:

In the long run, successful Necromancers will be PvE Death Necromancers. They're the strategy with the depth and power to cut it in the long run. The other options available simply do not have the usefulness, depth, or raw power to matter.

Your scaring me Ensign, are you saying the Necromancer can solo Riverside faster then my War/Mo?

BloodSire · Apr 21, 2005, 09:31 AM // 09:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by tektonik

Next Necro/Ranger is the WORST combo in the game. Why? You are paying full cost for ranger skills and necro spells that cost 2 sec or more to cast. You won't have a focus and wand out so you have base mana and regen.

I would like to say that being a ranger doesnt necessarily equate to using a bow. Wilderness Survival and Beast Mastery can, in certain builds, complement the necromancer. Order of Pain/Vampire + a pet is even more hits going into your target. Healing Spring + Necro minions also have a nice synergy. I'm not saying ranger is all that great for a necro, but rangers dont necessarily have to use bows.

AGTyson2Tone · Apr 21, 2005, 10:09 AM // 10:09

I didn't like to read Ensign's comment here, because
A/ I love the necro class.
B/ I know he's right about most things he said.

So necromancers have mediocre dmg abilities and poor defense, but still I think it is fun to play a necro. It' s hard to say why, what people experience as being "fun" is too subjective. Since the thread starter asked for opinions, you can't blame anyone here to give it.

What would I suggest ?
I think Wa is probably the worst choice as secondary profession. A necro stands in the back, it will never be a melee fighter, so don't try.
I could live with the Ra choice, especially for the Wilderniss skills.
My personal favour goes out to Elementalist as secondary profession, which lets you deal extra (OK not much) dmg from the back.

In any case try to get minions as much as possible, they can attract the foes due to their low defense, and a good necro can help to get the stress away from your human party members. Soloing can be considered in the training area but when the game really starts, a necro will (like it or not) become a party animal.
But this does not mean that Necros are the worst class, or that you cannot have fun playing it, even when most of the arguments stated above to proof this seem to be correct. Like the necro as it is, but don't compare his flaws with other classes' strengths.

Cheers T2T

tektonik · Apr 21, 2005, 02:12 PM // 14:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by BloodSire

I would like to say that being a ranger doesnt necessarily equate to using a bow. Wilderness Survival and Beast Mastery can, in certain builds, complement the necromancer. Order of Pain/Vampire + a pet is even more hits going into your target. Healing Spring + Necro minions also have a nice synergy. I'm not saying ranger is all that great for a necro, but rangers dont necessarily have to use bows.

Beast mastery is horrible and you can't trigger Order of Pain without physical damage. Monk > healing springs.

Listen if you like necros cause they are necros then fine. If you like necros cause you think they are powerful then thats where you are mistaken.

PawnBoy · Apr 21, 2005, 02:14 PM // 14:14

I dunno, I've had some pretty good runs with a Blood/Curses Mage in PvP. I mean, everyone says damage over time is rendered mute by high levels... And I guess that must be why no one removes the damn hexes...heh. Anyway, it sure isn't a good way of getting damage spikes off, but even if a warrior is focusing on you, necro's have better armour than the other three casters, and enough curses to nerf the warrior, and just leech and wait till he dies, or runs off and dies later because the hexes are still running. I mean, sure enough a Death Magic Necro won't get you very far in PvP, unless you've got a crazy new build that no one's heard of yet. But a Curses or Blood Necro can add a lot of auxilary dmg to the team, and help keep people alive at the same time.

Ensign · Apr 21, 2005, 05:34 PM // 17:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xellos

Your scaring me Ensign, are you saying the Necromancer can solo Riverside faster then my War/Mo?

Just about everything that can solo Riverside does so faster than a Wamo. The thing the Wamo does is durability - it can solo it, but it'll take a while. If a Necromancer can solo Riverside (and they can, once they get going), they just steamroll - get an army of 12-15 level 18 Bone Horrors up, and just run roughshod over everything there. The trick is getting started. Also, once you get to more difficult missions with level 28 monsters level 18 Bone Horrors stop looking scary and are just adaquate. But for a mid-level mission like Riverside? Get a bit of momentum from early packs and steamroll.

I wasn't joking when I said that a well build Death Necromancer can be a huge asset to a party. They just have to be built correctly, and that means leaning heavily upon your minions to clog up the battlefield.

Quote:

Originally Posted by AGTyson2Tone

In any case try to get minions as much as possible, they can attract the foes due to their low defense, and a good necro can help to get the stress away from your human party members.

Yeah, that's exactly what you want to do. Level 18 Bone Horrors are no jokes, and you can get a ton of 'em going, especially if you're maintaining them with Verata's Sacrifice or Blood of the Master. They're your best weapon, and you need to exploit that fact.

Quote:

Originally Posted by PawnBoy

I dunno, I've had some pretty good runs with a Blood/Curses Mage in PvP.

Well the argument against playing a Blood/Curses Necro in PvP isn't that those two lines don't have skills worth using. They do. The argument is three pronged:

1) You don't need a lot of skills from a given Necromancer line to be effective. If you want to shut down Warrior trains, Enfeebling Blood + Shadow of Fear is going to be about as effective as you can get. Want some energy management? Grab Blood is Power or Offering of Blood. A bit more caster shutdown? Not more for you past Mark of Subversion and Soul Leech. Oh, and someone wants Rend Enchantments in all likelihood. So it isn't a class that you normally want to overload on skills from, it's one that you want 1-3 skills from to compliment a strategy.

2) You don't need your skills to be at a particularly high attribute to be effective. Rend Enchantments starts to top out in the 4-6 range. Shadow of Fear is similarly effective at low attribute. Enfeebling Blood is perfectly reasonable around 7-9. Offering of Blood breaks at 7 and has a dead spot at 8 - Blood is Power is ideal at 8. Basically your attribute requirements are low, which makes the bonuses from the hat and runes that much less impressive.

3) Blood and Curses have zero synergy with Soul Reaping, and actually play better with other attributes. Soul Reaping is tailor made for the Death Necro, which runs on minions dying and powers out more. As far as the other two lines are concerned the attribute is purely passive. On the other hand the Necromancer can make direct use of both Fast Casting, for all of his 2-3 second cast spells, and Energy Storage, to get your spells off now instead of waiting for a couple people to die. Or, in short, Soul Reaping is weak in PvP and is happily cut for any of the other attributes.

The sum of these arguments is, effectively, "why devote a character slot to a primary Necromancer, when you can run a damage / disruptive / healing character with a splash for a couple key Necro skills?" A good PvP team wants as much damage, as much power healing, and as much pro-active disruption as possible, and there just isn't room to devote to a character like the Necromancer that just has a couple of tricks. You're better off with a Necromancer secondary or two with the important Necro skills splashed in, giving you eight solid characters with key jobs instead of seven. It's just more effective.

Peace,
-CxE

Greentongue · Apr 21, 2005, 05:51 PM // 17:51

Well if you are set on Ne/Ra you could consider building on this idea.
Use Soul Reaping and zero points in Wilderness Survival to mass enchantment strip, increase physical damage, and reduce running from AoE.
Reset the Natural Rituals with Oath Shot.
The dying Rituals will power your Necro skills.

Oath Shot [10,0,20] ELITE (Bow Attack) If Oath Shot hits, all your other skills are recharged. If it misses, all your skills are disabled for 10 seconds. (50% miss chance with Expertise less than 8.)
===
Nature's Renewal [5,5,60](Nature Ritual) Create a level 1..8 Spirit. For creatures within its range, all Enchantments and Hexes are removed. For 30..126 seconds, Enchantments and Hexes take twice as long to cast. This Spirit dies after 30..126 seconds.

Winnowing [5,5,60] (Nature Ritual) Create a level 1..8 Spirit. For creatures within its range, creatures take 4 additional damage whenever they take physical damage. This Spirit dies after 30..126 seconds.

Muddy Terrain [5,5,30] (Nature Ritual) Create a level 1..8 Spirit. For creatures within its range, all creatures move 10% slower than normal and speed boosts have no effect. This Spirit dies after 30..78 seconds.

tektonik · Apr 21, 2005, 05:57 PM // 17:57

I stopped reading after you suggested Soul Reaping. There is very little a Nec can offer a R/N can't. Before you even say it you dont have to be 100% bow user

Manderlock · Apr 21, 2005, 05:57 PM // 17:57

The only reason I whould even think of getting a necro primary is because they can mosh, and I love me a good mosh pit.

PawnBoy · Apr 21, 2005, 07:23 PM // 19:23

The Necro does have a higher mana pool and regen then the ranger or warrior...

TCP_Leader · Apr 21, 2005, 08:21 PM // 20:21

if you want a warrior included in your build. Just use it as primary so you can wear their huge armour.