Curse

manveruppd · Aug 19, 2005, 11:56 PM // 23:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zeru

Life transfer is one of those things in pvp where you start laughing once you see someone has it cause its so bad. Though pve really isn't any different concerning it either, just more forgiving.

And comments like this I just don't get: certainly it doesn't too THAT much damage to take out an enemy on its own, and certainly it doesn't heal you for anywhere near enough health to keep you alive if you're being focus-fired on by the whole of the enemy team, but that doesn't make it useless! LT is good to supplument those aggressive Blood builds that involve spamming Dark Pact and other health-sacrificing spells a lot: it's more than enough to offset the sacrifice during those 12 seconds, and it drastically accellerates your target's demise by adding 150+ damage (I forget) to the total you inflict.
The reason it's suicide to bring it nowadays is, again, NR-spamming. But it's a trend like others PvP has been through and I'm hoping it won't last.

Scaphism · Aug 20, 2005, 12:20 AM // 00:20

Stop it with Putrid already. We know. If you don't know...ask. Otherwise, assume people know by now.

Life Transfer looks good to a lot of people because the game teaches then early on that degen is a really good weapon.
By the time you hit level 20, it's not. Don't understand why? Ask.

Part Two: The life regen on life transfer looks really attractive until you realize you're rarely the focused target, so that health coming in is wasted.

Part Three: Recharge times. Life Transfer has a 30 second recharge time, but the duration is far less (fixed at 10s if I remember correctly). I'm not saying it has to have 100% efficiency, but for an elite where the self healing is largely irrelevant, it's bad.

Long recharge times also kill most of the curses line...in addition to long cast times, all of which get worse in the Nature's Renewal environment.

Stop looking at pure damage/self-healing potential and start taking a closer look at Cast and Recharge times.

Kaleban · Aug 20, 2005, 12:39 AM // 00:39

While I'm sure ANet is looking to balance the classes and keep them that way, it seems that the Necro is kinda shafted, lol just like in D2.

I mean, look at the Curse line. There are some relatively powerful skills here, the only problem is that between a Mesmer's Hex removal and a Monk's ability to Purge and Remove hexes too, that its hard to make them stick. Even worse, most of the really useful curses have recharge times upwards of 15+ seconds! So even IF you can get a hex onto a target, a Monk with Remove Hex can get rid of them TWICE as fast as you can make them stick!

And then take Soul-Reaping. Not only is its use completely marginalized in most PvP (the ubiquitous PE chain notwithstanding) it also has ZERO skills associated with it! Gah? I posted in another thread that what a necro could use would be a minion skill that does not require corpses, called Summon Specter, which is tied to the SR attribute. This would give a Necro at least some capability in areas where people just refuse to die!

I dunno, as Scaphism said, the PE Necro is well known by now. And IME, its the ONLY reason people even want Necros in parties anymore. I have this mental image of the Necro just sitting on a log, idly waving his hand everytime a corpse falls to blow it up, with the other hand propping up his head while the rest of the team are off doing the hero thing. He waves to the enemy Necro, they talk for a moment, then go get lunch...

I think the current skillset needs a good looking over by the devs. Most of the other classes' skills don't have nearly the amout of lengthy recharge timers, and those that do have at least one skill which can instantly recharge their skills anyway. Its not like a Ranger who uses Lightning Reflexes can't fire off an Oath Shot right?

My other beef is Minion level maximums. They should scale right up to 20, with the double summon up to 17. I would also scale way back the degen of minions, since its rediculous that these stupid things die so darn quickly, making minions nearly useless around the Crystal Desert area and beyond.

Just my two sense...

Ensign · Aug 20, 2005, 12:44 AM // 00:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by MCS

Ignore these non necro believers!

Necro/Ranger with Putrid Explosion and Nature's Renewal is arguably better than that build. Yes, with no other skills. Necros have the best, yet still largely insufficienct enchantment removal, but you're better served just slapping a Nature's Renewal on a guy or two.

Peace,
-CxE

Calibretto_9 · Aug 20, 2005, 12:55 AM // 00:55

Kaleban, 2 things: First, I thought the expression was two cents? (Am I wrong?)

And second, I entirely and wholeheartedly agree with you. I have never understood why they made minions to the point where they can't hit 20. It just doesn't seem to make sense. I also agree that there are plenty of ways to add new necro skills that would totally bring some flare back to their class. Something I've been thinking of was similar to what you said. A skill in the soul reaping line that allowed you to rez minions out of the ground (Something had to have died there sometime) for a high energy cost, but it will cause exhaustion. That way necromancers could come into battle with 1-2 level 20 minions, and then as people died raise more. It would make sense to have that as only available to necromancers whereas other classes were forced to wait for death as necro secondaries. Anything to really distinguish the class, because currently Nature's Renewal is more worthwhile than the necromancer class, and it doesn't take a party slot.

Kaleban · Aug 20, 2005, 01:10 AM // 01:10

Here was my idea for the SR linked Summon:

Summon Blood Specter (Elite)

Summons a lvl 2-22 Blood Specter (looks like the Seer but tinged all in red).
Cost: 25E
Sacrifice: 15% life
Recharge: 60s
Specials: Not subject to minion degen. Can use any Necro skill you currently have equipped at 2/3rd your attribute level, cannot use any skill that sacrifices life or any corpse skills.

I see this as the first minion to summon, which helps a minion master start building corpses. He can only ever have one in effect at a time. I figured it was sort of like using one's own lifeforce to bring forth a more powerful summon. Obviously, this skill is powerful, but I'm sure it could be balanced well by the dev team. I just think the Necro needs a minion skill that is completely independent of available corpses. Plus, since its linked to SR, only a Primary Necro would ever have a minion like this greater than a lvl 2. And since the Specter's skills are dependent on the 2/3rd SR value, it encourages Necros to place points in their Primary-only attribute!

I so smert!

Mesmerized · Aug 20, 2005, 01:37 AM // 01:37

Any Soul Reaping skills sound like the type that would include many of the Necro blood skills, as in stealing (or reaping) soul energy (life, energy?), which causes you to rethink what Soul Reaping could mean or include. Possibly using the spectral energy of the undead to summon forth a powerful specter? Sure, that works, but that's one idea.

Here's an idea I just thought of..\

Soul Embodiment *Elite* (spelling?

)

Harness the soul of a fallen foe and imprison it into a minion. Until that minion is destroyed, that foe cannot be resurrected.
Life: 15% Sacrifice
Energy: 15e
Recharge: 60s

Imagine a necro that imbodies the souls of the other teams monks into minions, and then uses verata skills to keep em alive! =D hehehe

**Second Possibility for the skill*

Embody the soul of a fallen into a minion. That minion gains target foe's elite skill (or entire skillset?).

Using this, the necro's minion would be able to be more versatile.

Itichi Uchiha · Aug 20, 2005, 02:10 AM // 02:10

another idea for minions independent of corpses would be blood minions you would sacrifice so much blood like 30% max health and they would be made out of your blood

Aug 20, 2005, 02:11 AM // 02:11

Of course let's try to stay on topic here...if you want to suggest skills, there's another section for it.
Everyone has pretty much summed it up...I don't know what else there is to say, except maybe a reply asking why health degen isn't a good weapon at level 20.

White Designs · Aug 20, 2005, 02:13 AM // 02:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by manveruppd

Certainly you don't need to be a primary necro to run enchantment removals, but if you're going to be a mesmer primary you may as well use the mesmer enchantment-removal spells so you don't have to spread your attribute points too much. Necro removals are more powerful, but the mesmer's are decent too.
However, enchantment-removal will only be about a third of your skill bar (half at most) whether you are a mesmer or a necro. Nobody goes into the Tombs to do that and nothing else (except NR spammers

)! If you go as a primary Necro you won't be doing JUST enchantment-removal, but you can be sure that you'll be rending as good as any Me/Ne, possibly better, and you'll be using the Blood or Curses skill lines to their full effect, and not just for enchantment removal, so you won't be handicapped by having spread your attributes too thin.

Necro enchant removal is probably better than Mesmer enchant removal skills. Shatter and Strip are pretty close, Drain is used more for the energy than the enchant removal, but Rend makes the Necro much better, although NR still makes them all look like crap.

A N/Me doesn't strip even close to as well as a Me/N. Fast-cast is an absolute necessity. Lingering Curse and Rend are 3 seconds each, that's forever. The extra point is Curses is negligible, whereas the 40%+ decrease is cast-time is tremendous.

manveruppd · Aug 20, 2005, 12:28 PM // 12:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by White Designs

A N/Me doesn't strip even close to as well as a Me/N. Fast-cast is an absolute necessity. Lingering Curse and Rend are 3 seconds each, that's forever. The extra point is Curses is negligible, whereas the 40%+ decrease is cast-time is tremendous.

I agree with you: long activation times are a problem not just with enchant removals (and the whole of the curses line), but also of many enchantments, especially monk enchantments. This doesn't really matter as they all have such long durations. But I agree that, for enchantment-removal, quick casting makes a difference, as in a match the 3" you take to remove a monk enchantment may mean a wasted elementalist spike, which will leave your team at an energy disadvantage. This is where REALLY good team comms show, but most teams don't have them, and even if they do it's difficult to know an enemy has enchantments on them which will render your spike worthless because there's no identifying animation for most of them as far as I've noticed! So unless you saw the enchantment being cast, you don't know you need to remove it!
Nevertheless, I'd still take a primary necro over a me/ne for 2 reasons:
a. there's lots of great spells in the curses and blood lines that aren't related to enchantment-removal, but tie in great with them. Examples include Desecrate Enchantments (right before Rending them), or, if you're targetting a self-protecting monk, following up Strip Enchantments with Mark of Subversion, so that when he tries to re-enchant himself his spell will fail and (if he's at <100 health) will most likely kill himself. Or even Sending the poisoning caused by Chilblains over to a whole group of enemies, forcing their monk Martyr himself and wearing down his energy. For all those spells, having high attribute scores help, and you need necro runes for that. I acknowledge that they're still relatively effective at around 10-11, but nowhere near as much, and if you're a primary mesmer and want to have one of your other attributes at 16, it probably means you're spreading your attribute points too much.
b. Many of those Curses spells are hideously expensive, notably Chilblains and Lingering Curse. All this energy you need to get back somehow, and although I personally think Mesmer energy-stealing spells are cooler, Soul Reaping is a lot more effortless to use and lets you focus on using those skills. And unless you have two all-monk teams fighting each other, there's bound to be people dying frequently on both sides - I've often been in matches where all but one of us died only to be rezzed again by the remaining team member and defeat the people who had killed us!

manveruppd · Aug 20, 2005, 12:36 PM // 12:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arkane

Of course let's try to stay on topic here...if you want to suggest skills, there's another section for it.
Everyone has pretty much summed it up...I don't know what else there is to say, except maybe a reply asking why health degen isn't a good weapon at level 20.

Because of the cap of 10 pips (20 Health per second), meaning it doesn't do damage nearly fast enough to wear down those 500 HP. What people don't understand is that spells like Life Transfer are not your PRIMARY weapon. It's there to:
a. counter regen (such as Troll Unguent rangers)
b. steal back health you sacrifice for other spells!

And with only 12 seconds duration, by the time their monk has gotten round to removing it it'll have run most of its course anyway, so they'll have wasted some energy and blacked out a removal skill. And if you're a secondary Mesmer and don't mind being hated and reviled, use Arcane Echo to cast it again as soon as it's removed!

Edge Martinez · Aug 20, 2005, 11:04 PM // 23:04

12 seconds runs its course? I can't see that. People in PvP usually remove a hex within a second or two from my experience. It's why we have to hide hexes with other hexes. I personally like the necro class on my team, though I've never played one. I like having an army of minions to clog up the paths and deal side damage even if others consider it simple. If every class was more efficient at what they do, necros would be invaluable. In my experience, efficiency is only had by a select few, so others make up for it by adding that extra elementalist or monk while treating necros as a one skill wonder or mesmers as a one attribute wonder.

FiveDisgruntledMonkeys · Aug 21, 2005, 12:45 AM // 00:45

As a big Necro fan, I just have to laugh at all of those who say Putrid Explosion is the only good skill on a Necro's list. Necros have some incredible abilities, but like Mesmers, are very much "behind the scenes". If the Necro doesn't seem to be doing anything at all, he's doing his job right (or he's AFK, but you know what I mean). Necros have incredible potential with a well-organized team. But, with short-sighted, idiotic PUG groups, I'm afraid you'll find yourself pigeonholed into that one, highly over-rated skill.
Now, with that said, I have to agree with some of the nay-sayers here. Yes, currently, the only reason you'd take a Necro primary would be for the Runes. Most hear this and think that translates to "the only reason you'd take a Necro primary would be to push up Death to 16". That's bull. If you plan to run Death/Blood, or Blood/Curses or anything else, you' be spreading your attributes really thin with a non-Necro primary. If you're going to be using mostly Necromancer skills, then it's pretty stupid to take anything but a Necromancer primary.
I also have to agree that, yes, Soul Reaping is pretty lousy in PvP. I think adding some powerful skills, or even just one powerful Elite (ala Fast Casting) to the line could make Necromancers a lot more popular. As far as skill ideas, I like the idea of summoning a specter out of nowhere, or perhaps summoning several from a single corpse (like the Vizier does at Thunderhead Keep in the role-playing portion of the game). Other ideas include impededing ressurection somehow (something along the lines of Frozen Soil), or creating small, weak, suicidal minions to better benefit from Soul Reaping. I think Anet made a mistake in giving Necros the only primary attribute that does not have even a single skill attached to it. Not only that, but it's a fairly useless attribute in and of itself. I hope Anet will hear our cries, and either add some skills to the Soul Reaping line, or redefine what Soul Reaping actually is.
And finally, I have to agree with those who say Nature's Renewal makes Necro's Enchant-removal (one of their greatest assets) useless. This, to me, is simply in arguement for the nerfing of Nature's Renewal. Most of those out to nerf Nature's Renewal are whining about their Enchantment-dependent Monks: "Oh, no! Now my protection monk has to rely on the already-practical and useful Reversal of Fortune instead of a pantload of 10 second duration protects! The humanity!" What people often forgot about is how utterly, unfairly shafted Necros are by Nature's Renewal (probably due to the Necro's waning popularity as a primary). Nature's Renewal single-handedly knocks out 90% of the Curses line and about 50% of the Blood line. Since Soul Reaping doesn't have a single skill in it, this leaves Necros with Death Magic as their lone, relatively-NR-immune option. And, therefore, Putrid Explosion runs rampant. Nerf NR, and Putrid Explosion will decline (it's really not a great skill anyway). Not only that, but Necros will have a new use as proffessional, high-quality Enchantment-strippers. Most of those that oppose nerfing complain that chagnes to NR will bring a resurgance of the "Healing Balls" of old. To that I say, "Let them come." My Enchantment-stripping, Enchantment-desecrating Necro will utterly decimate them.
That's just my two cents on the current state of the game involving Necromancers. They need a bit of balancing, but those calling them useless are simply ignorant.

Age · Aug 21, 2005, 12:49 AM // 00:49

Don't tell me about this as i was owned by one with plague touch and an elite which i don't have any yet for my Warrior.I am beginnig to hate Necros as much a Mesmurs.

manveruppd · Aug 21, 2005, 12:56 AM // 00:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Edge Martinez

12 seconds runs its course? I can't see that. People in PvP usually remove a hex within a second or two from my experience.

Depends on who you target: unless they're mesmers or monks (primary or secondary), they're unlikely to have any removal options at all, so they'll have to call it out, and if their monk is in the middle of a cast then by the time they finish, target them, and cast the spell, that's at least half Life Transfer's duration gone (and that's assuming that they're a. quick on the uptake, b. are packing hex removals and c. their removals aren't on the recharge)! If it IS a monk or mesmer you're targetting, then you have plenty of other hexes at your disposal to mask it with (some cheap and disposable, others actually quite good!). Certainly leaving an elite spell with a 30" recharge on a target unmasked isn't the best idea

Calibretto_9 · Aug 21, 2005, 03:59 AM // 03:59

The problem with the necromancer isn't their skills. The problem, and you need to keep this in mind, is the fact that a necromancer primary is not the best way to implement necromancer skills into your build (Unless, again, if you're running a special build like Putrid, BiPer, etc.). A mesmer is just a better primary for utilizing necromancer skills. On the other hand, necromancers are currently suffering something awful do to nature's renewal, but hey, who isn't.