Curse

Alderin · Apr 06, 2007, 12:22 AM // 00:22

This thread is for discussion about how the Soul Reaping nerf affects PvE, not PvP.
If you want to bash people for disagreeing with you or discuss why you think the change needed to be made, then please use another thread. Thanks.

Have you tried to play a Necromancer in PvE since the nerf to Soul Reaping? How did it work out for you?

I took my Necromancer out in PvE earlier to see how much the change would affect the game play, and found that it drastically has.

I think that The change they need to make to Soul Reaping is that Spirits and/or Minions give no energy for Soul Reaping, since they are already dead... which would fix the issues with Necromancers in PvP and not destroy Necromancers in PvE as they currently have. Let me explain below why I think this would be the best option.

Yea, they dropped the cost of some of the Minion skills, but not every one wants to play a Minion Master Necro, and they aren't even practical at all in some areas of the game... so I tested out Blood & Curses.

My Curses builds are now really difficult to play... with several 15 energy cost spells and the rest being 10... and since the skills pretty well requiring you to dump most of them on a mob all at once to be effective... I found myself out of energy very quickly, and I stayed out of energy. Even in the Nolani Academy mission where you can pull that lever at the beginning and be swarmed with a Charr mob, I took out the mob very quickly and got 13 energy twice, at the beginning and at the end of the battle, but that was it... so at the end of the battle I was at less than half energy and standing in a pile of bodies. I then had to wait around for my energy to come back, and was really wishing I had a blood necro handy to use Blood Ritual on me.
I can take a fire Elementalist into that mission and do the same thing, and still be at way above half energy when I'm done... because of Energy Storage and how it helps with energy management. Same with Rangers... they get Expertise to help with Energy management... but currently Soul Reaping is not working in a way that it's much benefit at all to have points in.
I did not fair much better with my blood builds... since they too have many high cost spells, yet when you take out several foes at once you get only one small bit of energy for it, which doesn't at all balance out.

Yes, there are skills like Signet of Lost Souls which can help you manage energy for a Necromancer, but if they are reduced to that then they will be as unloved as Mesmers in PvE. Not to mention that many skills like Signet of Lost Souls are specific to one campaign, and anyone without all three campaigns is at a severe disadvantage.

So, basically my attempts to play my Necromancer in PvE today have failed horribly, as I cannot keep up enough energy by only getting 13 energy every 5 seconds or so, while immersed in large groups of foes that might be dropping one after another, but only assuming I can keep casting my spells on them... which I cannot with the energy costs being so high, and the rewards from Soul Reaping being so low now. I think they've seriously hindered a once good class.

How have you faired?

joukou · Apr 06, 2007, 12:36 AM // 00:36

Tried MM and SS.

MM worked fine for me, lowering energy cost for vampire horror's helped. Can't spam new minions all the time anymore, but can easily get 10 and keep them alive.

SS.. Yeah, had some energy problems. Reckless Haste costs 15 energy now, which really didn't help at all. Since SS recharge is only 10 secs anyway, I figured I'd remove arcane echo and take some energy management instead. So I took glyph of lesser energy, and while the build is a bit slower than with arcane echo, I have no energy problems anymore.

Emik · Apr 06, 2007, 12:39 AM // 00:39

Don't you think it's idiotic you have to rely on another profession's skill list to be able to keep your energy up?
I for one do.

Cherno · Apr 06, 2007, 12:45 AM // 00:45

It loosk like the want to force everyone to use minions and vamp horrors. I was having a horrible time keeping minions created and alive. I use shambling and Fiend. Probably near the top of my list of worst changes they have done.

Kali Magdalene · Apr 06, 2007, 12:46 AM // 00:46

My early testing (Consulate Docks) implies to me that the change isn't that bad.

I need to try out other areas to know for sure. Also, I need to run my SS without MM backup.

Edit: My hero MM had shambling horror, bone fiend, and flesh golem. No vamps.

joukou · Apr 06, 2007, 12:46 AM // 00:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Emik

Don't you think it's idiotic you have to rely on another profession's skill list to be able to keep your energy up?
I for one do.

Umm... No?
We have 2 professions for a reason. Might as well use skills from both professions to create the best combinations possible for each situation.

And besides, it's not like Soul Reaping is useless. It still helps.

NekoZ · Apr 06, 2007, 12:48 AM // 00:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Emik

Don't you think it's idiotic you have to rely on another profession's skill list to be able to keep your energy up?
I for one do.

That's a good point. Maybe if we could BiP ourselves..

shanaya · Apr 06, 2007, 12:53 AM // 00:53

The whole concept of putting a timer (5 seconds) on the supply of energy from deaths is ridiculous and I hope that Anet will not make this a permanent change to Soul Reaping. It would be much better and more logical if, as suggested by many others, spirits and minions released no energy when they expire.

cellardweller · Apr 06, 2007, 12:57 AM // 00:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Emik

Don't you think it's idiotic you have to rely on another profession's skill list to be able to keep your energy up?
I for one do.

It's unheard of *rolleyes*

Sniper22 · Apr 06, 2007, 12:57 AM // 00:57

So much for a 10 bone fiends/ooa pve build.....

Man necros and minion masters in general have been taking so many nerfs, I think they need to rework the whole system cause now this is just crap. They can't even put jagged bones back to something halfway decent. Looks like I have to use the old crappy flesh golem again with bone horrors and maybe an occasional fiend if I have the energy.....

TGgold · Apr 06, 2007, 01:02 AM // 01:02

To the PvE necros.

Now you feel the pain of what it's like to need energy management. Is this a big nerf? Yes. Soul Reaping was completely broken. I personally thin that 5 seconds is plenty of time. Imagine getting even 10 energy every 5 seconds...that would be 6 extra pips of energy. Without using a skill.
Honestly, I think that as a passive attribute it is useful as is and no longer broken. The timer could probably be set at 4 seconds and still remain unbroken.
On another note:
If there is a spirit spammer or MM, and a creature dies once aevery 5 seconds, and you have only 10SR, that is 5 energy every 5 seconds, or 1 energy per second. This is "3 pips" of energy for you to have witout needing a skill.

As for making Reckless Haste 15 energy...I would not agree. I would like to see some curses reduced to 10 energy.

PS: Soul Reaping has some good energy management skills. So do other lines. So does Glyph of lesser energy.

Raaaaa · Apr 06, 2007, 01:09 AM // 01:09

So far i've only played the realm of torment to get razah and there was not much change. It takes 5seconds or over to take down one of them roughly so it made no change.
In the long it doesnt seem to bad as it will take a couple of seconds to kill any lvl 20+ monster but I guess places like vizunah or anywhere with large mobs swamping you, you might notice.
It might negate the usefulness of bone minions though, they dont do too much damage and were really best for the 2x SR energy when they died.

But overall I dont see it as that much of a problem, so far anyway

Akshara · Apr 06, 2007, 01:11 AM // 01:11

Quote:

Don't you think it's idiotic you have to rely on another profession's skill list to be able to keep your energy up?

Welcome to how it works for every other profession.

But on topic, I tried playing with my necro character and with heroes, and the change wasn't really that bad. It certainly didn't feel any different than running out of energy on any of my non-necro characters.

Honestly, before this update, my PvE necro was the only character with which I never had to consider energy management whatsoever. Now it feels a bit more balanced, at least to me.

lilnate22 · Apr 06, 2007, 01:11 AM // 01:11

you know what would solve all these nerf problems?
ANET TAKING THE "YOUR FIRED BAT" AND FIRING THE [email protected] THAT IS IN CHARGE OF SKILL "UPDATES"

seriously a freakin chimp can do a beter job at it...no really..they could

over half the things that dont need a nerf gets nerfed... and the ones that do dont..

sf any 1? yea that still runs a mockery

oh yea [sarcasm] mesmers sooooo needed that nerf [/sarcasm]

it seems to me that tha chimps..wait my bad thats a overstatement.. the idiots that work at "skill updating" want us to pritty much stick to balance builds... even that..

kanaxais_scythe · Apr 06, 2007, 01:14 AM // 01:14

They should just make spirits and minions give no energy as stated before. Lore wise they are already dead and sould nto count. Gameplay wise making this change would destroy the PvP minion/spirit builds and leave Soul Reaping useable in PvE.

But then again judging by Anets response to us on the issues of Bloodsong and the attribute panel I DO NOT see Soul Reaping being changed. The days have past where Anet actually listened to its fans/players.

Mercury Angel · Apr 06, 2007, 01:27 AM // 01:27

At this point, there are (or were, anyway) 3-4 thread on the soul reaping change active in Riverside. That is NOT necessary.

In lieu of closing this one, I'm shifting it to the PvE Necro discussion forum, and I'll stick a link to it in one or more of the other threads, along with leaving a redirect.

More Outrage · Apr 06, 2007, 01:30 AM // 01:30

I think the whole idea of nerfing soul reaping is pretty drastic. We all know why it was done and we all agree, I mean how the hell do you reap the soul of a spirit or a minion for that matter. It seems this was the easiest way of stopping the N/Rt teams in PvP.
I have no ultimate answer but they could at least reduce the costs of other skills, it`s no fun running out of energy a quarter way through a battle and waiting for what seems ages to be able to let another spell off. They could also stop secondary Rits using binding rituals giving more power to primary Rits at the same time. Or as everyone else suggests stop spirits and minions producing energy on death along with the lower cost of minions.
Oh, I don`t know but I do know my Necro is just gonna gather some dust for now if this update stays.
Starting to look like we all should just play sins and monkeys ftw.

Cherno · Apr 06, 2007, 01:33 AM // 01:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by TGgold

To the PvE necros.

Now you feel the pain of what it's like to need energy management. Is this a big nerf? Yes. Soul Reaping was completely broken. I personally thin that 5 seconds is plenty of time. Imagine getting even 10 energy every 5 seconds...that would be 6 extra pips of energy. Without using a skill.
Honestly, I think that as a passive attribute it is useful as is and no longer broken. The timer could probably be set at 4 seconds and still remain unbroken.

That's all well and good... if one thing dies neatly every five seconds. It doesn't. This update really does hurt. Soul Reaping wasn't broken. It was good. God forbid we should have anything good.

Does-it-Matter · Apr 06, 2007, 02:01 AM // 02:01

Like politics, it seems game design is prone to the arm-chair intellectuals. "I could do this so much better than X." From an outside perspective, everything looks easy, everyone knows the right decision. Until you actually wade into the pool.

More to the point...

I have started to get the feeling that the designers may not exactly want Minion Master builds to be bulldozers.
-With Factions, we saw the number of minions capped, and methods of keeping them alive harder for larger numbers (Blood of the Master, and Verata's for instance)
-We got a greater variety in minions, each "better" at specific jobs.
-Nightfall brought Jagged Bones, producing a greater "continuity" to the individual minions.
-Jagged Bones then got its recharge boosted, reducing the number of total minions it could be placed on.
-Smaller amounts of minions are easier to maintain as per less life sacrificed for Blood of the Master and an unlimited use of Verata's Sacrafice for three or less minions.

So, with the new Soul Reaping change, how does this fit in?

Let's say the developers decided they want minions masters to be "supportive" rather than focal points of parties. (As I believe it, that's how the game was designed, each character contributes a piece of the whole, rather than everyone else being there to revolve around one or two members of the party)

The minion master can keep a small amount of minions running (3-4) while the group maneuvers between mobs. When the party hits the mob, the MM can then expend some energy to support his minions (be it Barbs, Orders?, Verata's, Rotting Flesh, Death Nova, or whatever the option is).

When the first "thing" dies, the MM has some room to gain energy. That energy is then invested into additional support or to began "surging" the minion count. With MMs having 40-50 energy, that's plenty of room to initiate a short-term surge in between the 5-second Soul Reaping cool down.

The MM keeps up this surge until the Mob is destroyed. At which point the last bit of energy is received, and the MM then has to manage the remaining (most likely smaller amount) minions to the next mob.

To me, this is much more of a balanced use of the build so it isn't a horde of death easily maintainable and mobile.

To non-MM builds. My first character is a Necromancer, I love the genre, but I think I (and most of the community) have simply become so used to the virtually endless supply of energy that we associate it as a component of the profession.

In truth, it's not supposed to be like that. The Primary attribute is supposed to accentuate the profession, not push it out of proportion.

Honestly, as much as we (in reference to primarily PvE players) enjoy our mass carnage, big numbers and bulldozer-type behavior, it is out of proportion. We simply shouldn't be able to spam high-energy spells endlessly. No other profession, not even fire nukers, can consistently deliver so much damage with few requirements and relative ease using high-energy spells.

As much as I hate to admit it, it _is_ time we are made proportional to the other classes (Those poor, poor Mesmers... *shakes head.*). It's hardly the end of the Profession, its just time to rethink ourselves.

Enjoy!

ZenRgy · Apr 06, 2007, 04:14 AM // 04:14

PvE necros are fine, I played MM, SS and maybe I'll try orders or some other cookie cutter builds.

But they are fine, the energy is fine - however I think they should make it half from minions and 0 from spirits but I guess a nerf is a nerf and I'm glad it came.

Having our primary nerfed (which was superior to the others) just puts us on the same scale, that is balance. If we need to use a glyph or something for energy management, so be it.