Curse

thedeadlyassassin · Nov 29, 2007, 11:28 PM // 23:28

Since we are talking about D2 in the first few posts, I'd have to say that my first guild wars character was a necro because of the D2 necros. However, I feel that they are a lot worse, and have come to hate necros. In D2, the curses didn't shut down a character, but here, they easily destroy any profession that uses physical damage.

However, I already like my 55 necro, who isn't even a 55 yet.

Str0b0 · Nov 29, 2007, 11:38 PM // 23:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by thedeadlyassassin

Since we are talking about D2 in the first few posts, I'd have to say that my first guild wars character was a necro because of the D2 necros. However, I feel that they are a lot worse, and have come to hate necros. In D2, the curses didn't shut down a character, but here, they easily destroy any profession that uses physical damage.

However, I already like my 55 necro, who isn't even a 55 yet.

hehe I loved my bone necro in D2 and the D2 necro was why I made one here. Bonespear FTW!

Ensign · Nov 30, 2007, 03:08 AM // 03:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moloch Vein

Just out of curiosity, throw me a build that, to you, demonstrates the opposite of what you feel all necromancer builds stand for.

That's easy - sticking to casters, the common PvP Domination Mesmer foundation:

Power Leak, Power Drain, Mirror of Disenchantment, Shatter Enchantment, Diversion, plus 3 skills of choice and perhaps missing one of the above.

Each skill needs to be used at a particular time on a particular target in reaction to what your opponent is doing. In any sort of big fight, this sort of Dom Mesmer is one of the highest variance characters in the game; the best players understand their opponent's timing and goals and can pick apart the most vital parts of it with the tools provided, while a bad Mesmer pretty much spams Diversion on a Monk and Shatters when told to.

If you want to talk about physicals as well, look at a Cripshot and all of the tactical opportunities that provides.

In general, Necromancers are an invested class. Virtually nothing they do has immediate impact, it's all effectiveness that builds up into something impressive over 15-20 seconds once you've spread a bunch of long lasting effects around - be it hexes, or getting a minion pack going. That makes it rather difficult to do much more than maintain your effects; you don't outplay anyone, you put up your web of effects and hope that beats whatever you're up against.

Moloch Vein · Nov 30, 2007, 07:39 AM // 07:39

As you know, there are a few necromancer builds that operate in a way very closely to the PvP domination build you're referring to. An example would be Wail of Doom-centered builds. To use your way of wording things, a poor WoD necromancer simply spams WoD on recharge on any physicals. A good WoD notices when a dangerous spike is approaching, takes steps to counter it, and is also able to understand when his elite can be used more aggressively for a key offensive interrupt. As for Cripshot... it makes me mildly amused to look at people above me claiming (no, obviously not you) that effective warding simply constitutes "dropping the wards when you get near the enemy". There are tactical consideration at play there as well.

However, you are right in that the sad truth is that necromancers have been effectively excluded from some jobs that now exclusively go to mesmers. Perhaps the result of the, in my opinion thoroughly ill-advised, move to let Fast Casting affect Signets, with consequent nerfs to some casting times (in particular Signet of Humility.)

blue.rellik · Nov 30, 2007, 09:26 AM // 09:26

I love my necro with AotL + Dark Bond + Mystic Regen + Infuse Condition up and a bunch of minions

Tanking be damned

Ensign · Nov 30, 2007, 11:02 AM // 11:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moloch Vein

As you know, there are a few necromancer builds that operate in a way very closely to the PvP domination build you're referring to.

I'm not familiar with any Necromancer build that plays anything at all like the dominant Domination archetype.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moloch Vein

An example would be Wail of Doom-centered builds.

Wail of Doom is one of the rare Necromancer skills that requires active player skill to be effective. It also doesn't make for an effective character and is barely ever played. Wail has extremely poor synergy with anything else you're trying to do on a Necromancer - time intensive, invested casting. I see bringing up Wail of Doom as an example of why Necromancers require reactive skills akin to pointing to Imbue Health as an example of how effective Dervishes are as healers - though even less so, since the spot Imbue is actually relevant to the metagame.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moloch Vein

it makes me mildly amused to look at people above me claiming (no, obviously not you) that effective warding simply constitutes "dropping the wards when you get near the enemy". There are tactical consideration at play there as well.

There have been maybe half a dozen players in the history of the game that have used Wards effectively. Virtually everyone uses them as 'spam on recharge and bunch up in the Ward' skills however.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moloch Vein

However, you are right in that the sad truth is that necromancers have been effectively excluded from some jobs that now exclusively go to mesmers.

I don't know what game you were playing where interrupts, tactical enchantment removal, and precision shutdown were a part of the Necromancer profession, but it certainly wasn't competitive Guild Wars. Necromancers have always been a brute force profession. They don't open or close important windows as necessary, they maintain long lasting effects that an opponent has to pick apart. The skill involved in most Necromancer builds is in maintaining a consistently wide web of passive effects, and doing so in the face of shutdown - not anything with much timing or context sensitivity.

If you're looking for playmaking skills on a Necromancer's bar, they're consistently the secondary, non-Necromancer skills put on to support a largely passive core of Necro skills. That speaks volumes about a Necromancer's playmaking ability, moreso than I can.

LightningHell · Nov 30, 2007, 11:32 AM // 11:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Wail of Doom is one of the rare Necromancer skills that requires active player skill to be effective. It also doesn't make for an effective character and is barely ever played. Wail has extremely poor synergy with anything else you're trying to do on a Necromancer - time intensive, invested casting. I see bringing up Wail of Doom as an example of why Necromancers require reactive skills akin to pointing to Imbue Health as an example of how effective Dervishes are as healers - though even less so, since the spot Imbue is actually relevant to the metagame.

Wail of Doom is something that I don't really want to see played. From theory, if you don't want to use it fully actively, you could just stick it on an attacking target and you'd get the skill disable.

Ensign · Nov 30, 2007, 03:21 PM // 15:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by LightningHell

Wail of Doom is something that I don't really want to see played. From theory, if you don't want to use it fully actively, you could just stick it on an attacking target and you'd get the skill disable.

I agree; even if using it is more active than most Necromancer skills, the fact that it's an unavoidable, long lasting shutdown effect that you can't really counter or play around means it'll be a horribly unfun, problem skill if it ever did become viable.

Red_Dragon56 · Nov 30, 2007, 05:26 PM // 17:26

Isn't the point of a necromancer to be somone that sits in the back lines and watches things die?

I mean, let's take Death magic MMs. Usually necros sit back, take care of their minions (killing some along the way for the good of the minionhood) and watch damage and poison spread out.

Blood Magic: A lot of the skills are either degen, support, or plain ole life stealing. With support, you are doing what monks do, only with energy instead of HP. With Degen you are laying it out and waiting for stuff to fall. Life stealing is the onyl thing that is really activly played, that's only because really the only real use you would want for it is to bypass protection spells.

Then Curses:
Set 'em up and watch them fall. Really 'nuff said.

Alicendre · Nov 30, 2007, 05:32 PM // 17:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by thedeadlyassassin

In D2, the curses didn't shut down a character, but here, they easily destroy any profession that uses physical damage.

I've never PvPed in D2, but my sin's worse fear was Iron Maiden... And D2 curses weren't removable.

Anyway, I love Necros because of their polyvalence and their looks. Back in Prophecies, female N's were the only ones who could look good but not slutty...

Olim Chill · Nov 30, 2007, 06:19 PM // 18:19

Quote:

Isn't the point of a necromancer to be somone that sits in the back lines and watches things die?

I would say casting in the back line and making things die is more the point.

Occasional tanking shouldn't be out of the question - if your skillbar and play style support it.

Magikarp · Nov 30, 2007, 06:41 PM // 18:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Olim lll

I would say casting in the back line and making things die is more the point.

Occasional tanking shouldn't be out of the question - if your skillbar and play style support it.

tbh, no caster class should really be out in a frontline outside of some gimmick build.

also, passive hexes dont do anything, if the target does nothing. so necros, more or less for the most part, dont "make things die".

insid, reckless, price of fail, ect.. do nothing till they do something. a lot of other hexes are similar, but with maybe a touch of degen too. Minions do work for you, so you really do sit back (casting here and there) and hope they are enough to kill it all for you.

enmitee · Dec 01, 2007, 02:57 AM // 02:57

when we cast we look like enraging nuts. <3

Red_Dragon56 · Dec 03, 2007, 03:20 PM // 15:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magikarp

tbh, no caster class should really be out in a frontline outside of some gimmick build.

also, passive hexes dont do anything, if the target does nothing. so necros, more or less for the most part, dont "make things die".

insid, reckless, price of fail, ect.. do nothing till they do something. a lot of other hexes are similar, but with maybe a touch of degen too. Minions do work for you, so you really do sit back (casting here and there) and hope they are enough to kill it all for you.

QFT

Despite that I love my necro. It's not a BAD thing mind you, but pretty much how they are played.

visitor · Dec 03, 2007, 03:34 PM // 15:34

I see flying numbers

[ card]Spiteful Spirit[/card]

kel77 · Dec 04, 2007, 07:08 PM // 19:08

D2 definitely got me hooked on necro's but I'm slightly dissapointed blood damage isn't more potent. O and that really annoying minion degen.
Also really dig necro armor...

boogerboy72 · Dec 04, 2007, 07:42 PM // 19:42

i too came from d2, i didnt like the minion degen, still dont, but i can deal with it.

heres a fun combo, find a mob of enemies, and do this

[skill]Mark of pain[/skill][skill]Ebon Vanguard Assassin Support[/skill]

knockdown and more aoe than you can even begin to add up. i found it playing around last night, needless to say, in a tight area, with lots of foes, it pwns.

Shadowmere · Dec 05, 2007, 05:57 AM // 05:57

I love the neco, though to be honest my favorite aspect are the minions, I just love having the cute lil guys to run about and sew destruction and havok

I like to consider myself something like Verata, I love MM-ing and love finding ways to make it better.
this pic sums up my obsession quite well

doinchi · Dec 07, 2007, 04:22 AM // 04:22

I like playing a Necromancer because of the Anti-Hero feel to them and the fact that they are the most general spell casters. I can do anything with them and dominate whichever field.

The armor is pretty nifty too. My favourites being tyrian and kurzick 15k.