Curse

chris10188 · Dec 07, 2007, 11:54 PM // 23:54

okay.. i searched high and low for a MM build and all im finding is
"have spells that summon things"

i dont know what my secondary should be,skills to have, as i only have proficies and really dont feel like spending 50 bucks on a cd key for more skills...

but anyways..
should i even be a necro? maby a ele / necro would give me more mana for creatures

will my creatures even kill things?
how do i kill that first creature to start summoning?

The Meth · Dec 07, 2007, 11:59 PM // 23:59

Be a primary Necro, that way you get to have more minions at once, higher level minions, and the Soul Reaping attribute (one of the best energy managements in the game) Generally your party has to help you get the first few corpses, After that you will have an army that makes most of the game a breeze.

For a good guide on minion mastery let me point you here: http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/General..._mastery_guide

EDIT: Here's a basic MM build I whipped up that uses prophecies only skills:
[skill]Animate Bone Fiend[/skill][skill]Animate Bone Horror[/skill][skill]Blood of the Master[/skill][skill]Death Nova[/skill][skill]Taste of Death[/skill][skill]Dark Bond[/skill][skill]Aura of the Lich[/skill] And a Resurrection skill of your choice
Use 16 death, 13 Soul Reaping,3 Blood

You don't miss out on that much by not having other campaigns, but some things you wont have are: Signet of Lost souls for more energy management, Order of Undeath for damage boost, Icy Veins for explosions, and a few utility skills from other classes

Chthon · Dec 08, 2007, 01:28 AM // 01:28

Read this post.
Then read the thread it's in and the thread it links to.

Come back if you have questions after that.

The Meth · Dec 08, 2007, 01:55 AM // 01:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

Read this post.
Then read the thread it's in and the thread it links to.
Come back if you have questions after that.

MM's definitely don't require a heal considering the minions soak up such a huge amount of damage (though having one can be nice) and you can use dark bond to prevent spikes, and in any case Heal area sucks and all the other decent self heals you list won't be available to prophecies only. He can't use either of those energy management options either, which is why I propose just maxing soul reaping and not speccing into an attribute to give yourself a heal you can't use as often as you would want. Taste of death works perfectly fine in emergencies.

chris10188 · Dec 08, 2007, 03:17 AM // 03:17

okay that answers skills
whats my secondary?
whats Oou , AtoL and BotM ?[ im a major necro noob, my first time playing as them]

The Meth · Dec 08, 2007, 03:27 AM // 03:27

http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Order_of_undeath
http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Aotl
http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Botm
Oou is Nightfall only, so you can't use that. Aotl is used because it will actually reduce the sac from botm by 75%, making it much less taxing on your party to heal through it. botm is used because its basically the best/only way to heal a party of minions constantly.
As for a secondary it doesn't really matter for the build I gave, if you want a reusable res you would need to go n/mo.

For my build the way to use it is pretty basic: just hang around looking cool till you get a few corpses, raise minions and then keep your defenses up. Use Botm to heal the degen and damage the minions take, if one is getting singled out and about to die put death nova on it and hurt the bastards who just took one of your minions away. Taste of death is only for emergencies, only use it when you are under serious threat of death and need an instant heal. If you are confident in your party you can switch out as many defensive skills as you like for more offensively related ones.

Carinae · Dec 08, 2007, 04:32 AM // 04:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by chris10188

i dont know what my secondary should be,skills to have, as i only have proficies and really dont feel like spending 50 bucks on a cd key for more skills...

Since you are limited to Prophecies skills and professions, I would recommend using N/Mo and Heal Area. Heal Area is a solid self-heal, and to a lesser extent, a minion-heal, and party-heal. Please be aware that there is an eternal debate in the necromancer community about Heal Area and its virtue, or lack thereof.

Despite what some may say, it is one of the few viable self heals for MMs. Much of the arguments against it's use centers around the desire to not accept common solutions to a problem.

Quote:

Originally Posted by chris10188

should i even be a necro? maby a ele / necro would give me more mana for creatures

MM is one of the few professions that absolutely requires a necromancer primary profession. The ONLY other case where it is even conceivable to not use a primary necro is with Rt/N as a Minion Bomber, which is similar to a Minion Master, but not the same. As you do not have Factions, this is a moot point.

E/N brings nothing to the table....although a weak case can be made for N/E.

Quote:

Originally Posted by chris10188

how do i kill that first creature to start summoning?

Henchmen/Heroes/Players/Tricks/Wands

The first kill is often the hardest, as you aren't there to deal damage directly, instead you create and maintain minions that deal damage for you. You are all about inertia and momentum. You are a wrecking ball on the field of battle, not a surgical instrument.

Chthon · Dec 08, 2007, 04:45 AM // 04:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Meth

MM's definitely don't require a heal...

I don't want to be mean, but, at this point, you just need to stop posting. A self-heal an a MM build is not optional. There's no room to intelligently and reasonably disagree on this point, and doing so makes you look unintelligent and unreasonable. Please, go back and read this thread (the entire thing, paying particular attention to the introductory part of the first post and all of Carinae Dragonblood's comments), and please refrain from posting any more "advice" until you know what you are talking about.

Draginvry · Dec 08, 2007, 07:28 AM // 07:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

I don't want to be mean, but, at this point, you just need to stop posting.

I might have to agree with this. If you are using Taste of Death as the only self heal and expect to keep Blood of the Master running with any efficiency, you are throwing out the baby with the bathwater. For guildies it's no problem, but if you're in a PuG then you are putting way too much faith in your monk.

Personally I'd rather just spec a few for Blood Renewal. Or even use Healing Prayers. It would be much more efficient in a random group than squeezing a couple of more points into Soul Reaping, and not having a reliable self heal.

I'd rather be alive with slightly worse energy management, than dead with l33t Soul Reaping, as my former allied minions tear my distraught team to pieces.

upier · Dec 08, 2007, 09:22 AM // 09:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Draginvry

I might have to agree with this. If you are using Taste of Death as the only self heal and expect to keep Blood of the Master running with any efficiency, you are throwing out the baby with the bathwater. For guildies it's no problem, but if you're in a PuG then you are putting way too much faith in your monk.

See that's where the problem starts.
If one is running with guildies - then it isn't a problem.
Thus - a selfheal ISN'T ALWAYS required.
If one is playing with heroes - then pretty much the same thing applies.
Second of all - the places where a necro being a MM instead of a Curser is viable are the easier places of this game.
Mending works there.

That's like saying that Backfire should be nerfed to hell because it works so godly in RA!
A MM - once it's not being used for damage - can be replaced by Save Yourself and There Is Nothing To Fear on a DS Warrior and a Paragon!
And it should be!

Chthon · Dec 08, 2007, 07:25 PM // 19:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Draginvry

For guildies it's no problem, but if you're in a PuG then you are putting way too much faith in your monk.

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

If one is playing with heroes - then pretty much the same thing applies.

Even for guild monks, and especially for H+H monks, you've got a problem if your MM can't self-heal efficiently.

Even skilled guild monks run short on energy sometimes. You never want to be in the situation where your poor build forces your monk to choose between (a) using the bottom of the energy pool to offset your sacrifices and letting someone else die because they can't afford to save them, or (b) saving that other party member and watching your army collapse because you can't afford to maintain it on your own. You want to always have the ability to "engage solo mode," and keep your army running by yourself if the monk starts to run into trouble. Guild monks tend to be much better than PUG monks, but they are by no means immune to finding themselves short enough on energy that your sacrifice costs are just too much to afford on top of monster damage.

As for H+H, they give you even stronger reasons to bring a self-heal than a PUG. The healers tend to be not much more efficient or better with their energy than PUG monks, so you're going to need solo mode just as much. Even worse, if you let them, the protectors/hybrids consistently waste energy throwing all sorts of prot on you, even though you're not getting hit and it does nothing to offset your sacrifice costs. Oh, Life Sheath, thanks Gita/Karl! They're just going to keep right on wasting prot on you until you heal yourself, someone else heals you, or their DF bonus finally moves your bar up far enough.

Quote:

Second of all - the places where a necro being a MM instead of a Curser is viable are the easier places of this game...
A MM - once it's not being used for damage - can be replaced by Save Yourself and There Is Nothing To Fear on a DS Warrior and a Paragon!

I think you underestimate the damage output on a good MM. They retain better DPS than just about anything through most of HM. Also, it should not be "curser instead of MM" it should be "curser in addition to MM." A curser is at its absolute best when it has 10 minions triggering its Mark of Pain and Barbs several times per second.
I do I agree that, at the point MM's stop being about damage and start being about tanking only, it is time to consider removing them from the party. I just think that point comes far, far later than you seem to think it does.

Carinae · Dec 08, 2007, 09:16 PM // 21:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

I think you underestimate the damage output on a good MM. They retain better DPS than just about anything through most of HM. Also, it should not be "curser instead of MM" it should be "curser in addition to MM."

Indeed, even in HM I'm the primary damage dealer. In fact, in HM the primary threat to a MM isn't from Eles, it's from the physicals. When that happens, I run dual cursers with very strong anti-melee debuffs: SS, RH, EB, MoP (all x2)

Kyp Jade · Dec 08, 2007, 09:23 PM // 21:23

I find the damage lvl 18 minions do to lvl 28+ enemies is... not impressive.

Abedeus · Dec 08, 2007, 09:36 PM // 21:36

Try getting Barbs on hero. They use it even TOO good (minions + heroes + gvg = win without skill).

upier · Dec 08, 2007, 11:10 PM // 23:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

Even for guild monks, and especially for H+H monks, you've got a problem if your MM can't self-heal efficiently.

Even skilled guild monks run short on energy sometimes. You never want to be in the situation where your poor build forces your monk to choose between (a) using the bottom of the energy pool to offset your sacrifices and letting someone else die because they can't afford to save them, or (b) saving that other party member and watching your army collapse because you can't afford to maintain it on your own. You want to always have the ability to "engage solo mode," and keep your army running by yourself if the monk starts to run into trouble. Guild monks tend to be much better than PUG monks, but they are by no means immune to finding themselves short enough on energy that your sacrifice costs are just too much to afford on top of monster damage.

As for H+H, they give you even stronger reasons to bring a self-heal than a PUG. The healers tend to be not much more efficient or better with their energy than PUG monks, so you're going to need solo mode just as much. Even worse, if you let them, the protectors/hybrids consistently waste energy throwing all sorts of prot on you, even though you're not getting hit and it does nothing to offset your sacrifice costs. Oh, Life Sheath, thanks Gita/Karl! They're just going to keep right on wasting prot on you until you heal yourself, someone else heals you, or their DF bonus finally moves your bar up far enough.

And that's the dilemma that should be solved before going in.
If, or better yet, when the monk runs out of energy - what will happen to the party?
What will happen to the MM if the monk has no energy and the MM gets targeted. Which - let's not kid ourselves - will probably happen. Just because the other godly PvE options have insane armour. Well next to the monks. (Or even if they don't get directly targeted - they will be taking more damage!)
So we have a monk without energy and MM that is targeted. Will the self-heal be enough?
Yes, it gives a chance.
But what happens to the army?
Well personally I'd be more worried about getting out alive. If one is targeted - one wouldn't exactly spam BotM. So we have issues with the army now.
Because one party member failed - we have a second one failing also.
Does this make the MM worth it?

Personally - once it becomes obvious that it requires a lot of effort to keep the MMs army alive - I'd dump the MM.
One squishy less in the party.

Yeah, MMs are nice. I absolutely adore playing one these days. But when we have a a character that constantly sacrifices themselves - self-heals aren't enough.
They just aren't good enough.
The character will need more attention. And through many parts of the game - the added attention will be justified. But once it starts becoming an issue (or even a possibility of an issue) - dump him.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

I think you underestimate the damage output on a good MM. They retain better DPS than just about anything through most of HM. Also, it should not be "curser instead of MM" it should be "curser in addition to MM." A curser is at its absolute best when it has 10 minions triggering its Mark of Pain and Barbs several times per second.
I do I agree that, at the point MM's stop being about damage and start being about tanking only, it is time to consider removing them from the party. I just think that point comes far, far later than you seem to think it does.

Define "just about anything"?
DS warrior?
And when? Always or only if there are 10 minions running around? How about if there are only 5 minions running around? Only if the minions are hitting Barbs and MoP?
A party can only have 8 members (most of the time). So one goes with the best option. The beauty is that once one added the best option - one doesn't need to go for the second best. One can choose the best option AGAIN!
Which means if a warrior will outdamage the MM - and I'll be looking for a character that will damage things - I'll go with the warrior.
And if I'll need a second character that will damage things - I'll once again go with the best option.

chris10188 · Dec 09, 2007, 04:04 PM // 16:04

so this is telling me there ok for beginning game if you can get and maintain the army, but later in the game ill be absolutley useless and nobody will want me around...

so basically i should trash this and go for something better?
like originally i was just looking for a fun build for the whole game, or does sutch thing even exist

Tatile · Dec 09, 2007, 04:18 PM // 16:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by chris10188

so this is telling me there ok for beginning game if you can get and maintain the army, but later in the game ill be absolutley useless and nobody will want me around...

so basically i should trash this and go for something better?
like originally i was just looking for a fun build for the whole game, or does sutch thing even exist

MM's, I've found, will always be wanted, however as a Necromancer you cannot have Minion Mastering as your only option. You can be an MM for the majority of Prophecies, up until the Ring of Fire Isles, then it will become harder due to the lack of corpses there can be (unless you have an idiot on your team, free corpse). An MM will never be useless, you can always find a place, but your build will need tweaking for the environment you are in.

Fun build for the whole game? I go with the cheap, Propheceis+Nightfall option on my Necro, a Spiteful Spirit (Curses Elite, from Proph.) based-build with an MM Jagged Bones (Death Magic Elite, from Nightfall) hero. Things die quickly after the first group.

Try to ignore anything you find too convoluted to understand. Sometimes the best advice is also the simiplist.

Moloch Vein · Dec 09, 2007, 06:09 PM // 18:09

Seeing that a newbie question has started a discussion on another level, I am going to answer the OP's question.

There is no single way as easy and convenient to complete Prophecies as running a MM build.

You don't kill the first corpse. The henchmen do.

Seeing as you might still have a problem understanding the potency of the build I'm going to give you a template.

Animate Bone Horror - Blood of the Master

Rest optional. Max Soul Reaping max Death Magic.

You can leave the remaining slots empty and still be more effective than most characters in that campaign.

chris10188 · Dec 09, 2007, 09:19 PM // 21:19

actually i ment fun build with any charicter, not just the necro, beings im partial to staying alive rather then damage dealing, but killing things is always a plus..
it does not matter, if i dont like the necro MM ill move on
thanks for all your help

upier · Dec 09, 2007, 11:25 PM // 23:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by chris10188

it does not matter, if i dont like the necro MM ill move on

That's the way to go!
Try it - if you hate it - remake it!

The MM-build is insanely strong. It is a superb option for most of the game - and a weak to mediocre option for the last parts of each campaign.
But all in all - it's one of those builds that will work pretty much always and will be pretty much always in demand.
There are better options - BUT this is PvE.
We're stupid. We don't go for the best options - we go for what we are used to.
And one of those things are MMs!

Plus the good side is that the Necro in PvE is pretty darn versatile. So even if the MM build isn't working for a specific area - the Necro has other guns up his sleeve - that work superbly!
Basically - it's one of the perfect PvE classes.