Curse

Tyla · Apr 24, 2008, 05:31 PM // 17:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by zling

Wrong, WoD is a Soul Reaping elite. and because of that it's useful in many necro builds.

It should be a Curses elite in my opinion.
It acts more like a Curse, because it's a major debuff spell.

Calista Blackblood · Apr 24, 2008, 05:50 PM // 17:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

Ew... No it's not. +30 hp is just bad for a MM no matter how you cut it.

in a game about individuality of course,people may want to do things different.it seems thats a little known concept around here

if your running sup death and sr runes +30 is hardly gonna throw off the numbers much,i found the 2x HCT death more beneficial than a +1,thats how i play and how i like playing.the +30 is not a problem personally

if +30 is soo bad while your trying to get your health as low as possible. do you cower in fear at the thought of a morale boost? does it make you sweat?

Olim Chill · Apr 24, 2008, 05:53 PM // 17:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

It's probably not the best choice for Death -- OK, but not the best.

I certainly get the logic in favoring +1 DM for the standard MM. But I personally value the maximization of both HCT & HSR above all.

Carinae · Apr 24, 2008, 07:42 PM // 19:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by zling

Wrong, WoD is a Soul Reaping elite. and because of that it's useful in many necro builds.

Don't be pedantic. It's a SR Elite, yes. It runs on Curses bars. Nobody runs it with Blood or Death. And it definately doesn't run on MM bars.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Calista BlackBlood

i found the 2x HCT death more beneficial than a +1

That's not the choice. We already have 2x HCT. It's the choice between +1DM and +30hp. The HP mod always works against you, the DM mod sometimes works for you. Decisions, decisions.

Calista Blackblood · Apr 24, 2008, 08:02 PM // 20:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carinae Dragonblood

Don't be pedantic. It's a SR Elite, yes. It runs on Curses bars. Nobody runs it with Blood or Death. And it definately doesn't run on MM bars.

That's not the choice. We already have 2x HCT. It's the choice between +1DM and +30hp. The HP mod always works against you, the DM mod sometimes works for you. Decisions, decisions.

personal preference, you have yours i have mine

Chthon · Apr 24, 2008, 08:59 PM // 20:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Calista BlackBlood

if your running sup death and sr runes +30 is hardly gonna throw off the numbers much,i found the 2x HCT death more beneficial than a +1,thats how i play and how i like playing.the +30 is not a problem personally

You got your mods crossed.

The the second HCT on staves comes from a staff head, not a wrapping. So it's competing with other staff head (and focus core) mods, and not the 20% +1 Death mod.

The +30hp mod on nightbringer comes from a wrapping (since the head is already in use), so that is competing with the 20% +1 death mod, but that's an easy choice -- the death mod works for you, the +hp mod works against you.

(If you wanted to maximize HCT at the expense of energy, you could make a 20 HCT (head), 20/20, 20% +1 Death staff. As compared to Ghail's, you'd lose 5e and gain 20HCT. BUT doing it with a wand+focus gives you all the same mods, and 3 more energy.)

I might also add that, if you want to bring your HP back up a bit (which may be the case with dual sup runes), runes and insignias are a better place to do it than your weapon mod.

Quote:

if +30 is soo bad while your trying to get your health as low as possible. do you cower in fear at the thought of a morale boost? does it make you sweat?

Cower in fear? Not so much, but I do get annoyed when OoU pushes up a point. I console myself with the thought that, if I'm cruising along with a +10 morale boost, then we're probably doing well enough that the monk can afford to chip in a bit to pay for my increased sac costs.

Calista Blackblood · Apr 24, 2008, 11:08 PM // 23:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

You got your mods crossed.

The the second HCT on staves comes from a staff head, not a wrapping. So it's competing with other staff head (and focus core) mods, and not the 20% +1 Death mod.

The +30hp mod on nightbringer comes from a wrapping (since the head is already in use), so that is competing with the 20% +1 death mod, but that's an easy choice -- the death mod works for you, the +hp mod works against you.

huh? there is no +1 on the nightbringer
* Energy +10
* Cold damage: 11-22 (Requires 9 Death Magic)
* Halves skill recharge of spells (Chance: 20%)
* Halves casting time of Death Magic spells (Chance: 20%)
* Halves casting time of Death Magic spells (Chance: 20%)
* Health +30
* Two-handed

Chthon · Apr 25, 2008, 03:08 AM // 03:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Calista BlackBlood

huh? there is no +1 on the nightbringer
* Energy +10
* Cold damage: 11-22 (Requires 9 Death Magic)
* Halves skill recharge of spells (Chance: 20%)
* Halves casting time of Death Magic spells (Chance: 20%)
* Halves casting time of Death Magic spells (Chance: 20%)
* Health +30
* Two-handed

You said that you preferred Nightbringer to Ghails because you preferred the second HCT mod to the +1 Death mod. What I was trying to say is that they're not in the same upgrade slot, so it's not a proper comparison.

Poor attempt at a table:

Code:

Part           Ghails             Nightbringer
Inherent:     10e, 20HRT           10e, 20HRT
Head:          5e                  20HCT
Incs:          20HCT                20HCT
Wrap:         20% +1DM             30hp

As you can hopefully see a little clearer, the two comparisons are (1) 5e vs 20HCT and (2) 20% +1DM vs 30hp.

The second choice is easy. 20% +1DM beats 30hp hands down.

The first choice is a little harder. Your energy pool is deep enough, 20HCT might be nicer than 5e. So you might be tempted to make a staff like this: [Inherent: 10e, 20HSR; Head: 20HCT; Insc: 20HRT; Wrap: 20% +1DM]. That's all well and good, except you can make a wand+focus set with the same mods, only 2 more energy.

Conclusion: If you want to use a staff, use Ghails; If you want to maximize HCT (or HSR) go wand+focus. (I'm deliberately not discussing enchanting to keep things simple.)

Calista Blackblood · Apr 25, 2008, 10:49 AM // 10:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

You said that you preferred Nightbringer to Ghails because you preferred the second HCT mod to the +1 Death mod. What I was trying to say is that they're not in the same upgrade slot, so it's not a proper comparison.

Poor attempt at a table:

Code:

Part           Ghails             Nightbringer
Inherent:     10e, 20HRT           10e, 20HRT
Head:          5e                  20HCT
Incs:          20HCT                20HCT
Wrap:         20% +1DM             30hp

As you can hopefully see a little clearer, the two comparisons are (1) 5e vs 20HCT and (2) 20% +1DM vs 30hp.

The second choice is easy. 20% +1DM beats 30hp hands down.

The first choice is a little harder. Your energy pool is deep enough, 20HCT might be nicer than 5e. So you might be tempted to make a staff like this: [Inherent: 10e, 20HSR; Head: 20HCT; Insc: 20HRT; Wrap: 20% +1DM]. That's all well and good, except you can make a wand+focus set with the same mods, only 2 more energy.

Conclusion: If you want to use a staff, use Ghails; If you want to maximize HCT (or HSR) go wand+focus. (I'm deliberately not discussing enchanting to keep things simple.)

consolidate the rest of the thread into the table with the other options,this is far more usefull to the OP than telling me something i knew already

sterbenx2 · Apr 25, 2008, 12:00 PM // 12:00

Wow, who knew there was so much debate over Necs. =P Well, I've been playing a Nec for three years and my two cents: Modti's Depravation is a fairly easy green to get for a Curse staff. It has a +30 on it and does cold dmg. Dunno if anybody mentioned that but as a Curse Nec, its good to have a Cold dmg weapon so it triggers Spinal Shivers/Shivers of Dread. My armor setup is: Sup Curse, Minor Soul, best Vigor you have, then all Vitae and Survivor runes. Radiant runes are not that useful on a nec since SR will get you good amounts of energy quickly. Others will argue that since they changed SR but it still works fine.

For Death builds I run a Sup Death, Minor SR, and all Health runes. The weapons, I'm still experimenting with them. I don't really like the Death +1 so far, I don't see a major benefit from it. So far I'm leaning towards the 20/20, hp +60 staff, again. Weapons are all preferance, play around. A fairly easy to get and well working MM staff is the Woe Spreader. Though I tend not to use it because it doesn't do cold damage. (I run an MM hero along with Curse Nec so Cold dmg is always a concern for me, tho I don't ALWAYS use the Shiver spells)

MM with high Health isn't a bad thing, My MM builds use only one sac spell and they run Heal Area which makes up for the sac easily. If you're looking for some experienced advice and builds. PM me in game.

street peddler · Apr 25, 2008, 04:08 PM // 16:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

It should be a Curses elite in my opinion.
It acts more like a Curse, because it's a major debuff spell.

its in soul reaping to prevent secondary abuse..

AOTT · Apr 25, 2008, 04:15 PM // 16:15

Wail of Doom still seems lacking to me, personally. I mean, sure, 0 in all atts is a real pisser, but the duration leaves a lot to be desired, personally...

If you chain it with Entropy it works out a bit better but still not my elite of choice.

Tyla · Apr 25, 2008, 04:17 PM // 16:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by street peddler

its in soul reaping to prevent secondary abuse..

/Doh! Nice catch!
Mind you, I still think it should be 1 second cast at least.

Sweet Victory · Apr 25, 2008, 10:51 PM // 22:51

how well does icy veins fit on a necro bar? Seems like it is a cool elite

Chthon · Apr 25, 2008, 10:52 PM // 22:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by sterbenx2

MM with high Health isn't a bad thing, My MM builds use only one sac spell and they run Heal Area which makes up for the sac easily.

Yes, it is. Heal Area can cover the sac up to a pretty high life total, the higher life total forces you to cast it more frequently, and that ends up costing you a lot of energy that would be better spent elsewhere.

How much energy? Start by assuming that BotM is your only sac skill (even though it probably shouldn't be). 30hp is going to cost you an additional 8hp/cast_of_BotM. At 8 Healing Prayers, Heal Area gives you 11hp/e. So you are spending (8/11)e/cast_of_BotM. Presuming you're casting BotM at the 6.1 sec/cast baseline needed to offset max degen, you end up paying ~0.12e/sec -- a little more than 1/3 of a pip -- just for having that extra 30hp. 60 extra hp costs a little more than 2/3 of a pip. 90 extra hp costs a little more than a full pip of energy regen to support. In which case, congratulations, you're a ranger.

Now, that was assuming only one sac skill. But many, even most, top-end PvE MM builds run 2 sac skills -- BotM and OoU. That's going to make that 30 hp cost you even more. For OoU, 30hp is going to add 3 to the base sac and 1 to the the per-hit sacs. Assume 7 fiends and 3 horrors. Attacking at their normal speeds, over 5 sec that's going to give you (7*(5/1.9))+(3*(5/3.17)) ~= 23 attacks per cast of OoU, for a total of 26 extra hp lost per OoU. Assuming you are using Heal Area (instead of, say, vampiric horrors), to heal that back at 11 hp/e, you end up spending an extra ~2.1e per cast of OoU. Assuming you're not very aggressive with it, you might cast OoU once every 10 sec, which would mean you're wasting ~.21e/sec -- or about 2/3 of a pip -- for that extra 30 hp (totaling ~1 whole pip between BotM and OoU for 30 hp). 60 extra hp costs ~1 & 1/3 pip for OoU (totaling ~2 pips for BotM + OoU -- congratulations, you're a warrior!). 90 extra hp costs ~2 pips for OoU (totaling ~3 pips for BotM+OoU -- just ouch!).

What's worse, you're giving up all that energy, and getting almost nothing in return. High health usually means survivability. But, in your case, you shouldn't need it because you should have 10 low-AL, reasonably-low-hp allies to grab aggro for you, and the positioning skills to keep them between you and the monsters. Moreover, if your positioning skills aren't enough to keep you alive and you still need something more to help with your survivability, you can always bring Dark Bond at 3+1 Blood Magic.

Quote:

If you're looking for some experienced advice and builds. PM me in game.

I don't want to be mean, but if you don't understand that high max hp is not good for a MM, you aren't exactly in a position to be giving "experienced advice and builds."

----

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

Mind you, I still think it should be 1 second cast at least.

The quick cast is to help it retain its interrupt-ish nature. (Remember that it used to be an actual interrupt.) With the speedy cast, you can pop a big-ticket spell with WoD and destroy its potency well enough that their cast was a waste -- essentially the same as an interrupt.

Quote:

Originally Posted by AOTT

Wail of Doom still seems lacking to me, personally. I mean, sure, 0 in all atts is a real pisser, but the duration leaves a lot to be desired, personally...

For PvE, I tend to agree. Most of the PvE interest in this skill is Shiny New Toy Syndrome in my opinion. But PvP is a different matter. The necro turns the opposing monk "off" for 4 sec while everyone else spikes the primary target -- that's borderline overpowered.

-------

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sweet Victory

how well does icy veins fit on a necro bar? Seems like it is a cool elite

"Seems" is the operative word. Icy veins is a relatively cool concept for a skill completely ruined by the fact that it's armor-sensitive cold damage. Once you're fighting lvl 24+ monsters, the damage becomes very pitiful and the non-elite putrid bile starts to outclass it.

Sweet Victory · Apr 25, 2008, 11:44 PM // 23:44

Well that's a shame, so just stick with aura of the lich, OoU, Assassin's Promise and SS for Pve then?

Olim Chill · Apr 26, 2008, 11:42 AM // 11:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

----"Seems" is the operative word. Icy veins is a relatively cool concept for a skill completely ruined by the fact that it's armor-sensitive cold damage. Once you're fighting lvl 24+ monsters, the damage becomes very pitiful and the non-elite putrid bile starts to outclass it.

So true. If IV did shadow damage to nearby foes I'd have a use for it. PB is indeed the better bomb.