Curse

upier · Apr 13, 2008, 09:52 AM // 09:52

I didn't say that the idea was bad (of the thread that is - some of the skill changes are though!)
I am all up for skill changes.
What I am saying is that you are asking the SERIOUSLY wrong crowd.
You don't want SOME people posting here to have experience in high end PvP if this is something that is to be taken seriously.
You want EVERYONE posting in this kind of thread to have experience in high end PvP - because that's what the skills will be balanced on.
There is NO "Now let's all imagine you do high end PvP and then post your suggestions". You ask the people that don't need to imagine that!

If you want this thread to be taken seriously - then PvE has NOTHING to do with skill balance. Otherwise there is no way in hell that anything can be EVER taken seriously.
Start a thread in Gladiators or something if you want to at least start it off right.

Turbobusa · Apr 13, 2008, 09:57 AM // 09:57

PvE forum lacks of experience, while PvP forum gives pretty much nothing constructive and also ends up with dumb skill change proposal...

TBH I prefer it to be here and have the people that actually care about real balance and not destroying what they can't beat, as it is a tendency in the pvp forums. Or they don't care, ignore the threrad, and blood stays a crappy line.

I know what you mean, but we have more chance of having constuctive suggestions here than in the pvp forums (imo)

EDIT (cause I don't want to start a place wars or something):

I meant: PvPers with good understanding of the game balance often come in PvE forums also.

Posting in PvP forum will only result on suggestion flooding with no real listening between posters. People will feel strong because they are PvPers, therefore their suggestion MUST be good.

Posting in a PvE forum will attract some PvP players, which is good of course, AND some PvE players also.
When the skill balance comes, the riverside whiners can be directed here -> "You were warned".

Really we have 2 solutions:
PvE forum, some dumb suggestions might come up, MIGHT. And we can filter them.
PvP forum, noone listens to anyone and quotewares starts. Suggestions are coming from people that either don't care or are frustrated because they loosed to blood spike.

Maybe it's just me hating the attitude of the average poster in PvP forums.

upier · Apr 13, 2008, 10:15 AM // 10:15

In which case this can NOT be taken seriously.
The people who play a game where aggro is possible, where e-denial has no effect, where skill denial is worthless, where foes deal double damage or are immune to certain skills or effects, where foes use skills that aren't part of the basic skill-set, ... - aren't taught what balance is.
It's not our fault that we don't understand it. But that isn't the question. The question is - do we understand balance.
And if the answer is ANYTHING other then "Yes!" - then that person can not be taken seriously by default. We can change that premise later on - but by default we ARE WRONG on this matter.
So why pose this question to the people who are wrong by default if the point is to change something?

Unless of course this is just a thread to have fun. Then this is a superb place to have it and I apologize for not understanding that.

Carinae · Apr 13, 2008, 11:32 AM // 11:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

Skill balance CAN NOT happen with ANYTHING outside of high end PvP in mind.

I would welcome input from PvPers, so long as it consisted of something constructive. I have a feeling, however, that it would mostly consist of:

"Why bother?"
"Go away."
"That's dumb." (regardless of what was suggested)
"PvE gets NO say in anything, go away."
More "Go away."
And finally "Shut Up."

In short, it would generally fall on deaf ears. But try if you want.

I don't think they feel ANY motivation to revamp Blood at all. It's nearly a useless spell line for them, and they would rather it die off. Now, that said, I think experienced PvPers would have valuable insight on things like:

Maximum damage that can be allowed for lifesteals.
Recharge and Cast Times for reworked blood spells.
etc, etc.

What we need to do is to provide direction for the form of the revamped Blood line. At this point, we are just conceptualizing, so it's OK to leave it here in this forum. Should Blood become full support oriented, and why? Should we theme it around Vampirism, and why? Should we keep it as a DD line, and why? etc...

Moloch Vein · Apr 13, 2008, 11:34 AM // 11:34

Well, even an idiot can come up with a worthwhile idea, to be honest. And I don't feel that by being a PvE player you are automatically an idiot, or that being a PvP player means you're not.

Would a PvP player be more qualified to suggest balance changes, generally speaking, YES. We DO have people posting here who know a thing or two about PvP, though. Last I checked Ensign still posts here now and then, for example.

Oh and please, do GIVE your thoughts regarding the proposed balances! Tell us which aren't good, and WHY. And let us get back to the matter of the thread instead of questioning its existence?

Kindly,

System_Crush · Apr 13, 2008, 12:14 PM // 12:14

I'd like to make a somewhat overzealous suggestion.

First what is the most cost effective life steal in the game?
I think it is [[Nightmare Weapon] a life steal of 30-159 with a 10 sec recharge for 5 energy.
Not any of the blood magic skills.

Then why have the blood magic lifesteals been nerfed beyond recognition while that skill was untouched?
Because its affected by attack time and block chances, balancing out the defense ignoring effects of the lifesteal.

A possible start towards balancing life steal could be making all life stealing spells projectile based.
Curses and death magic have plenty of non-projectile spells, Its not like all of blood magic is required to follow that example, if anything BM should be different from curses.

Sides a necro splashing blood on foes would look pretty narly.

(I guess PVPers are already looking at this post in disgust)
But I'm not done yet...
To get rid of some of the lame spells blood magic has that seem to be only good for skill less toucher and farmer builds.
I propose a change to some of GW's touch based spells, at least in blood magic.

In the Xbox version of Buldars Gate Dark Alliance II touch attacks are preformed relative of the equipped weapon.
So a touch spell in BGDA is pretty much the same as [[Poison Tip Signet].

If some of the touch ranged skills in blood magic would be changed to the delivery mechanism of poison tip signet, they would become usable in many more aspects, but also be weakened in their ability to ignore defenses(other than cripshot) as they become affected by blocking. And you will have to make to choice of giving foes a chance to dodge the effect or having to get into melee range.

It would open up a niche for blood magic users, to deal pressure instead of spikes, also if the effect would be usable on allies, it would add a excellent change to help other allies deal damage, moving blood magic more towards being a support attribute instead of a damage attribute.

Put simply change [[Touch of Agony] and [[Vampiric Touch] to single target, single shot versions of [[Order of Pain] and [[Order of the Vampire].

[EDIT]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drakken Breathes Fire

[ORIGINAL FORM]
[Sacrifice:10%][Energy Cost:1][Casting Time:1][Recharge Time:2]
Spell
[Deal 10...40...51 shadow damage to target foe.]

[SUGGESTED CHANGE]
[Sacrifice:10%][Energy Cost:1][Casting Time:1][Recharge Time:2]
Hex Spell
[For 20 seconds, target foe suffers -1 Energy Degeneration. When this hex ends, you gain 3..5..7 energy.]

[Rationale: As Moloch already stated, Blood suffers for a lack of viable cover hexes. Energy denial is key. Energy gain, helpful. With the fast recharge, this can be bloods Parasitic Bond.]

I like that one a lot!

Drakken Breathes Fire · Apr 13, 2008, 12:46 PM // 12:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by System_Crush

I like that one a lot!

I do too. I don't think there's a necro a live (or dead.) who wouldn't.
It'd quickly become a bread and butter, utility to all necromancers.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moloch Vein

As for your suggested change to Blood of the Aggressor, I like it, but I think it's too strong for a non-elite spell at 5 seconds recharge. Maybe "and lose 1-3 strikes of adrenaline"?

15 energy or, 15-20 second recharge? (or both?)
Sympathetic Visage and it's copy can wipe all adrenaline too, however, they're much stronger since they effect all adjacent attackers aswell, this is a single target. Personally I think 5 e 5r is fine. Potentially, it can be equally effective as SV/AV in the worst case scenario, and 1/4 as effective or worse in the best case scenario.

It's shorter duration to SV/AV should help balance out the fact it carries a life steal as well.

Thoughts?

horseradish · Apr 13, 2008, 06:38 PM // 18:38

SV and AV are only used in farming builds, not particularly much in PvE because either, the mesmer is very unpopular, or SoI + PvE skills are ran instead.

That change to BotA could be devastating in PvP, where there are less warriors and paragons to harass.

I realize this is a PvE forum, but skill changes need to work for PvP as well. :/

Carinae · Apr 14, 2008, 12:16 AM // 00:16

Lifesteals aren't protable. That's the crux of the problem. They explicitly bypass balance. That's why the DD Blood spells are weak. They CAN'T be strong or it breaks balance. As long as lifesteals remain unprotable they will never, ever be viable in a build.

DD skills are marginal at best anyway, but it could make an interesting and fun niche attribute.

audioaxes · Apr 14, 2008, 12:24 AM // 00:24

i think blood skills should focus away for health stealing to just health lost that way skills can be beefed up without making necros too leet in TA other game modes

Drakken Breathes Fire · Apr 14, 2008, 01:05 AM // 01:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by horseradish

SV and AV are only used in farming builds, not particularly much in PvE because either, the mesmer is very unpopular, or SoI + PvE skills are ran instead.

That change to BotA could be devastating in PvP, where there are less warriors and paragons to harass.

I realize this is a PvE forum, but skill changes need to work for PvP as well. :/

Adrenaline is easily regained by your average whammo//spearchucker.
Let's see, fastest unmodified attack speed is 1.33 seconds? with a with a 5 second recharge, they gain 4 (rounded up) Adrenaline back before this skill recharges. 10 seconds, 8 adrenaline regained, now we're getting up to using skills. 15 seconds, 11 adrenaline regained, skills are useable again with nothign more than a minor set back, maybe he had to put off on his spike assistance//set up for a few seconds. Finally, 20 seconds like SV/AV, he gains 15 adrenaline. These numbers are without any sort of adrenaline boost skills too.

My proposed changes to Blood of the Aggressor make it a VERY good skill, but as I've explained, it's very far from being broken.
Say he has another necro in his party with dark fury//mark of fury, a Paragon, or even a warrior skill or paragon skill of his own that aids his fast adrenal gain, along with some increased attack speed, he's hardly out of the picture for too long. It just re shuffles him into the deck, so to speak.

PS, Moloch, can you please add the ones you liked (Dark Pact//BoTA) to the first post?

horseradish · Apr 14, 2008, 02:34 AM // 02:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drakken Breathes Fire

Adrenaline is easily regained by your average whammo//spearchucker.
Let's see, fastest unmodified attack speed is 1.33 seconds? with a with a 5 second recharge, they gain 4 (rounded up) Adrenaline back before this skill recharges. 10 seconds, 8 adrenaline regained, now we're getting up to using skills. 15 seconds, 11 adrenaline regained, skills are useable again with nothign more than a minor set back, maybe he had to put off on his spike assistance//set up for a few seconds. Finally, 20 seconds like SV/AV, he gains 15 adrenaline. These numbers are without any sort of adrenaline boost skills too.

True enough, but you also have to add in target switching (perhaps his target got SBed), Aegis chains, snares/cripple, blind, and many other factors that make adrenaline slow and difficult. Six seconds is far too long for a spammable skill imo.

I like Moloch's suggestion for the skill. In your version, you don't even need to spec into BM to be a major problem.

Drakken Breathes Fire · Apr 14, 2008, 03:05 AM // 03:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by horseradish

I like Moloch's suggestion for the skill. In your version, you don't even need to spec into BM to be a major problem.

That's very true, you could even have a Mesmer Fast Casting it with max 3 blood magic.. very s'ploitable.

Okay, I'll combine ideas with Moloch;

BLOOD OF THE AGGRESSOR

[ORIGINAL FORM]
[Sacrifice:5%][Energy Cost:5][Casting Time:1][Recharge Time:3]
Spell
[Steals 5...41 Health if target foe was attacking. Otherwise, deals 5...41 damage.]

[SUGGESTED CHANGE]
[Sacrifice:5%][Energy Cost:5][Casting Time:1][Recharge Time:5]
Hex Spell
[For 6 seconds, the next time target foe attacks, you steal 10..34..40 Health And that foe loses 1..3 strikes of adrenaline.]

A lot of complaints about my original take on Ravenous Gaze, Heres v1.1;

RAVENOUS GAZE

[ORIGINAL FORM]
[Energy Cost:10][Casting Time:1][Recharge Time:5]
Elite Spell
[Steals 15...27 Health. Steals 15...75 more if your Health is still below 50%.]

[SUGGESTED CHANGE 2]
[Sacrifice:5%][Energy Cost:5][Casting Time:1][Recharge Time:10]
Hex Spell
[Steals 12...27 Health. If your health is below 50% Target foe becomes hexed with Ravenous Gaze. For 10 seconds, each time target foe attacks, or uses a skill, you steal 1...12...16 Health.]

Thoughts? still over powered?

horseradish · Apr 14, 2008, 09:16 PM // 21:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drakken Breathes Fire

RAVENOUS GAZE

[ORIGINAL FORM]
[Energy Cost:10][Casting Time:1][Recharge Time:5]
Elite Spell
[Steals 15...27 Health. Steals 15...75 more if your Health is still below 50%.]

[SUGGESTED CHANGE 2]
[Sacrifice:5%][Energy Cost:5][Casting Time:1][Recharge Time:10]
Hex Spell
[Steals 12...27 Health. If your health is below 50% Target foe becomes hexed with Ravenous Gaze. For 10 seconds, each time target foe attacks, or uses a skill, you steal 1...12...16 Health.]

Thoughts? still over powered?

What is your reasoning behind this change?

legacyofkain85 · Apr 14, 2008, 11:05 PM // 23:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trvth Jvstice

Life Transfer
Energy Cost: 5 - Casting Time: 1 - Recharge 30
Elite Hex Spell
For 6...11 seconds, target foe suffers -3...7 Health degeneration, which you gain as Health regeneration

Suggested Change
Hex Spell
Energy Cost: 5 - Casting Time: 1 - Recharge 10
For 6...11 seconds, target foe suffers -3...7 Health degeneration, which you gain as Health regeneration

overpowered?

Trvth Jvstice · Apr 15, 2008, 12:05 AM // 00:05

Overpowered? I made a mistake there, I had intended that to be either a 10 second recharge or leave it as it is except make it non elite. Preview Post ftw...

EDIT: AND, according to the elite, degen is bad anyway

But still, I had a lot of fun after capping LT in the Crystal Desert and A Echoing it. I thought I had discovered a new all powerful build there - lol - A Echo, LT, L Siphon, V Gaze, and others of it's ilk.

Drakken Breathes Fire · Apr 15, 2008, 03:23 AM // 03:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by horseradish

What is your reasoning behind this change?

Reasoning behind the change is simple, Ravenous Gaze is terrible, has a terrible condition to be met, and in order to benefit from the full life stealing effect it requires you to remain in that awful condition.

Now, with my proposed change, it has the same requirement, but results in a life stealing hex similar to insidious Parasite with equal life stealing to Order of the Vampire.

So, as long as you're under 50% health for the initial cast, the hex applies, and friendly monks can heal you back to full afterwards, the hex is still applied. And it serves as more of a health bonus over time spell instead of one solid chunk you'd only receive 45% of the time.

horseradish · Apr 15, 2008, 04:03 AM // 04:03

That's understandable, however, the under 50% health condition is still the BIG problem for the skill, mainly because it's a very slippery slope to be on.

A very conditional elite isn't gonna gain prowess any time soon.

Ensign · Apr 15, 2008, 06:19 AM // 06:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carinae Dragonblood

I don't think they feel ANY motivation to revamp Blood at all.

I don't think that directionless changes are going to make the game better. Anything that's going to be added is going to be at the expense of something else; how is the added skill going to make the game more fun, or how would the new templates create more interesting diversity?

Individual changes are nice, but the idea is more important. What do you see blood's role being? How is it going to be used, what sorts of characters and in what situations should it excel? Once you have a good picture you can fill in that skeleton; I don't feel that blood has much of a skeleton to fill in, and most changes being suggested don't do much to change that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carinae Dragonblood

Maximum damage that can be allowed for lifesteals.

60 @ 15 on a 1c is safe. I wouldn't suggest 70s just because they're just waiting to be picked up as a spike follow-up.

Shadow Strike is a good model for about how much damage you can put on a 2c spell.

The limits are pretty hard like that. Damage that you can't mitigate is really dangerous.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carinae Dragonblood

Recharge and Cast Times for reworked blood spells.

Depends on the concept of course, of what sorts of abilities you want to mix in.

If you want some ballpark figures for raw DDs, Vampiric Gaze should cost 5e, and Dark Part should do 15...60 damage with a 5% health sac; Blood of the Aggressor could be somewhere in between. Shadow Strike is a good model for a 2c spell. There are a lot of crappy DDs left over that could be given abilities or fit in some other way.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carinae Dragonblood

What we need to do is to provide direction for the form of the revamped Blood line.

Exactly. That's the main issue I take with most of the suggestions in the original post; they don't really address this. They're either more cute effects that aren't going to get anyone excited, or take skills in directions that aren't necessarily good for the game (more hexes yay!). Blood, more than any other line, really needs a purpose, and I haven't seen a good concept yet.

Carinae · Apr 15, 2008, 07:00 AM // 07:00

For me the interesting feature of Blood is the lifestealing ability, especially it's ability to bypass Prot. That's where I think we should focus. So, I imagine something akin to a Vampire, which functionally would work similar to a Necro/Assassin. In fact, many of the Sin skills would work well with this concept in mind.

An effective, powerful, single-target killer.

Drawing from lore, Vampires have many abilities that have corresponding matches in GW:

They can disorient a target briefly before feeding. (Dazed)
After feeding they themselves sometimes become disoriented or weakened briefly.
They can move quickly for short times. (IMS)
Most of their attacks are touch range.
They are hard to kill, but have certain specific vulnerabilities. (Holy Damage, but maybe more)
EDIT: In order to discourage Ranger overusage, and to encourage use of Awaken the Blood, it might be neat to spec them REALLY high in Blood. They become MUCH more effective at 16-18 Blood.
EDIT: They tend to be physically frail, which goes with the above edit, in that they are running a Sup Blood.

I don't have any specific spell suggestions, yet, but feel free to conceptualize around those (and possibly other) Vampire characteristics.