Curse

Moloch Vein · Apr 12, 2008, 06:52 PM // 18:52

Alright, so... I'm sorry for creating yet another Blood Magic thread, but they are littered around the forum and pretty poorly organized. Don't want to step on anyone's toes, but...

We all know Blood is a pretty weak line, mainly because it's got very limited utility on most of its spells, and many of them encourage pretty moronic behavior for a caster. (Example. Touch of Agony.)

So, I thought... Let's make a thread with suggestions for skill changes for the Blood line. No other thing will be discussed in the thread. I will update this original post with the suggestions that sound the most promising to most of those discussing. (I'll try not to be a dumb dictator.) Then, when we feel we've gotten somewhere, we'll post a poll on the proposed skill suggestions, and then present the finished poll to the Arenanet designer team. I'm not sure how much of a change we can effect but... hey, let's try?

Please remember, even though this is the N PvE forum, that the skill balances must consider both the PvE and PvP side of the game. In other words, don't try to turn every skill into Great Dwarf Weapon or Save Yourselves.

Post the skill balances in the following form:

[SKILL NAME]

[ORIGINAL FORM]
[Sacrifice][Energy Cost][Casting Time][Recharge Time]
[Skill Type]
[Skill Effect]

[SUGGESTED CHANGE]
[Sacrifice][Energy Cost][Casting Time][Recharge Time]
[Skill Type]
[Skill Effect]

[Rationale for change]

I will start.

DARK PACT

[ORIGINAL FORM]
[Sacrifice:10%][Energy Cost:1][Casting Time:1][Recharge Time:2]
Spell
[Deal 10...40...51 shadow damage to target foe.]

[SUGGESTED CHANGE]
[Sacrifice:10%][Energy Cost:1][Casting Time:1][Recharge Time:2]
Hex Spell
[For 1...3...4 seconds, target foe suffers -10 Health Degeneration.]

[Rationale: Blood suffers for a lack of viable cover hexes. Dark Pact in its current form usually inflicts more damage on its user than on the enemy. This change fixes both these issues.]

RAVENOUS GAZE

[ORIGINAL FORM]
[Energy Cost:10][Casting Time:1][Recharge Time:5]
Elite Spell
[Steals 15...27 Health. Steals 15...75 more if your Health is still below 50%.]

[SUGGESTED CHANGE]
[Energy Cost:10][Casting Time:1][Recharge Time:?]
Elite Spell
[Target foe loses 1...7...9 strikes of Adrenaline. Steal 10 Health for each strike lost.]

[Rationale: Ravenous Gaze is a terrible elite promoting idiotic play. The change suggested gives the Blood user an option for adrenaline denial to go with his options to support adrenaline gain.]

LIFE TRANSFER

[ORIGINAL FORM]
[Energy Cost:5][Casting Time:1][Recharge Time:30]
Elite Hex Spell
[For 6...11 seconds, target foe suffers -3...7 Health degeneration, which you gain as Health regeneration.]

[SUGGESTED CHANGE]
[Energy Cost:5][Casting Time:1][Recharge Time:15]
Elite Hex Spell
[For 6...11 seconds, target foe suffers -3...7 Health degeneration, which you gain as Health regeneration.]

[Rationale: The recharge of Life Transfer is simply atrocius. 15 seconds is more than enough.]

BLOOD OF THE AGGRESSOR

[ORIGINAL FORM]
[Sacrifice:5%][Energy Cost:5][Casting Time:1][Recharge Time:3]
Spell
[Steals 5...41 Health if target foe was attacking. Otherwise, deals 5...41 damage.]

[SUGGESTED CHANGE]
[Sacrifice:5%][Energy Cost:5][Casting Time:1][Recharge Time:5]
Hex Spell
[For 6 seconds, the next time target foe attacks, you steal 15...63...79 Health.]

[Rationale: This makes Blood of the Aggressor another viable cheap hex for the Blood line, in the line of Mark of Subversion. The amount of life stolen is purposefully the exact same as Weapon Of Remedy. While Weapon of Remedy is elite, it casts faster, recharges faster, can help any party member, can not be removed, does not involve a sacrifice and clears one condition on trigger.]

[SUGGESTED CHANGE 2]
[Sacrifice:5%][Energy Cost:5][Casting Time:1][Recharge Time:10]
Hex Spell
[For 20 seconds, each time target foe attacks, you steal 1...12...16 Health.]

[Rationale: The same story, only retailored as a cheap, long-lasting cover hex resembling Insidious Parasite (which should've been a Blood spell all along.) The amount of health stolen isn't huge (same scale as Order of the Vampire) but it's a small cost and a decent recharge.]

Let the fun begin! (?)

Trvth Jvstice · Apr 12, 2008, 07:07 PM // 19:07

Life Transfer
Energy Cost: 5 - Casting Time: 1 - Recharge 30
Elite Hex Spell
For 6...11 seconds, target foe suffers -3...7 Health degeneration, which you gain as Health regeneration

Suggested Change
Hex Spell
Energy Cost: 5 - Casting Time: 1 - Recharge 10
For 6...11 seconds, target foe suffers -3...7 Health degeneration, which you gain as Health regeneration

Moloch Vein · Apr 12, 2008, 07:09 PM // 19:09

I agree that the recharge of LT is terrible. However I'm not too sure about cutting it to one-third. How about 15 seconds? That's still a huge buff. Oh and I assume you didn't mean it would lose its elite status?

Turbobusa · Apr 12, 2008, 07:33 PM // 19:33

For such a powerfull effect on ravenous gaze, I wouldn't drop the recharge below 15, and up the requirement to 7 or more. Seeing as the adrenaline loss doesn't scale with your BM rank, this would be too abusable as a /N with just 5 BM.

Moloch Vein · Apr 12, 2008, 07:34 PM // 19:34

That's possible, it might be better to limit to x...y strikes lost?

Turbobusa · Apr 12, 2008, 07:44 PM // 19:44

That'd make it an adrenaline version of energy burn, I like it...
Energy burn has a 2 seconds casting time, but mesmers have fast casting.
Shall we also up the cost to 15, seeing as necros have soul reaping?
I mean this is a VERY powerfull effect, and there is no way to hide adrenaline as you can do it with energy burn.

That'd make it like that:

RAVENOUS GAZE

[ORIGINAL FORM]
[Energy Cost:10][Casting Time:1][Recharge Time:5]
Elite Spell
[Steals 15...27 Health. Steals 15...75 more if your Health is still below 50%.]

[SUGGESTED CHANGE]
[Energy Cost:15][Casting Time:1][Recharge Time:20]
Elite Spell
[Target foe loses 1...7...8 strikes of Adrenaline. Steal 10 Health for each strike lost.]

BTW very nice idea of a thread, having constructive comments on changes, and an updated OP, we can end up with
a real redesign of the blood line.

Moloch Vein · Apr 12, 2008, 07:56 PM // 19:56

Well, you do have Sympathetic Visage, which if timed correctly will strip all adrenaline from a warrior (plus adjacent, plus energy loss!) even at 0 spec (not that it's ever run at 0 spec, if it's run at all, I don't know... I actually run it sometimes in RA/TA/AB, it's pretty fun...)

And that's 20 seconds recharge, and 1 second casting time. Ravenous is an elite, I think you could make a strong case for having a shorter recharge, exactly how short is up to debate.

Kale Ironfist · Apr 13, 2008, 12:09 AM // 00:09

Quote:

Ravenous is an elite, I think you could make a strong case for having a shorter recharge, exactly how short is up to debate.

Dropping their adrenaline by ~6-7 strikes is quite strong, especially since a Shock Axe only holds 8 at most. At 10 second recharge, you'd be stopping a Warrior from being able to commit to a spike for the entire match in a PvP setting.

Drakken Breathes Fire · Apr 13, 2008, 12:33 AM // 00:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moloch Vein

RAVENOUS GAZE

[ORIGINAL FORM]
[Energy Cost:10][Casting Time:1][Recharge Time:5]
Elite Spell
[Steals 15...27 Health. Steals 15...75 more if your Health is still below 50%.]

[SUGGESTED CHANGE]
[Energy Cost:10][Casting Time:1][Recharge Time:?]
Elite Spell
[Target foe loses 1...7...9 strikes of Adrenaline. Steal 10 Health for each strike lost.]

[Rationale: Ravenous Gaze is a terrible elite promoting idiotic play. The change suggested gives the Blood user an option for adrenaline denial to go with his options to support adrenaline gain.]

I would've taken a different direction with Ravenous Gaze;

RAVENOUS GAZE

[ORIGINAL FORM]
[Energy Cost:10][Casting Time:1][Recharge Time:5]
Elite Spell
[Steals 15...27 Health. Steals 15...75 more if your Health is still below 50%.]

[SUGGESTED CHANGE]
[Energy Cost:5][Casting Time:2][Recharge Time:5]
Elite Spell
[Steal 5-15% health from target foe. (max 60) Steal an additional 5-15% for each recharging blood magic skill. (max 90.) If target foe is suffering from poison or disease, you also suffer those conditions for 25 seconds. This skill is easily interrupted.]

Lets face it, Ravenous Gaze sucks horribly. The condition is awful, the builds that make use of the current condition are suicidal at best, I like keeping it as an elite form of Vampiric Gaze, but when stealing THAT MUCH LIFE there must be a drawback. If you're drinking the blood of a poisoned or diseased person, it'd only make sense that it'd flow into you through blood.

Also, since I've adjusted ravenous gaze to not be an adrenaline skill;
Let's make up for it with

BLOOD OF THE AGGRESSOR

[ORIGINAL FORM]
[Sacrifice:5%][Energy Cost:5][Casting Time:1][Recharge Time:3]
Spell
[Steals 5...41 Health if target foe was attacking. Otherwise, deals 5...41 damage.]

[SUGGESTED CHANGE]
[Sacrifice:5%][Energy Cost:5][Casting Time:1][Recharge Time:5]
Hex Spell
[For 6 seconds, the next time target foe attacks, you steal 10..34..40 Health And that foe loses all adrenaline.]

DARK PACT

[ORIGINAL FORM]
[Sacrifice:10%][Energy Cost:1][Casting Time:1][Recharge Time:2]
Spell
[Deal 10...40...51 shadow damage to target foe.]

[SUGGESTED CHANGE]
[Sacrifice:10%][Energy Cost:1][Casting Time:1][Recharge Time:2]
Hex Spell
[For 20 seconds, target foe suffers -1 Energy Degeneration. When this hex ends, you gain 3..5..7 energy.]

[Rationale: As Moloch already stated, Blood suffers for a lack of viable cover hexes. Energy denial is key. Energy gain, helpful. With the fast recharge, this can be bloods Parasitic Bond.]

Carinae · Apr 13, 2008, 01:29 AM // 01:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drakken Breathes Fire

I like keeping it as an elite form of Vampiric Gaze, but when stealing THAT MUCH LIFE there must be a drawback.

No there doesn't, not in PvE anyway. The only reason we don't have STRONG lifesteals is because of PvP. So, unless we make lifesteals protable or have some wonky hard-to-meet condition on them, they still aren't gonna get buffed.

Honestly, I'd love to run some kind of Vampiric build in PvE that has some synergy with anything. Something practical, very strong vs. single targets. Perhaps appealing to lore would give us some ideas...

Vampires can move fast when preying...maybe something that works like Dash and ends if you attack....For 5 seconds you move 50% faster and your next attack steals 50ish hp.

Maybe a way to daze a target before feeding, and after feeding, YOU become dazed.

Maybe a way to KD a target AFTER a lifesteal...Steal 34hp from target and KD target for 2s.

Maybe a way to block attacks, ends if you attack.

Maybe more hexes like Mark of Subversion...For 10s, steal 12hp every second. Strong effect IF it runs it's course, won't upset PvP.

Maybe lifesteals DON'T WORK AT ALL in the presense of Holy Damage.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drakken Breathes Fire

BLOOD OF THE AGGRESSOR

[ORIGINAL FORM]
[Sacrifice:5%][Energy Cost:5][Casting Time:1][Recharge Time:3]
Spell
[Steals 5...41 Health if target foe was attacking. Otherwise, deals 5...41 damage.]

[SUGGESTED CHANGE]
[Sacrifice:5%][Energy Cost:5][Casting Time:1][Recharge Time:5]
Hex Spell
[For 6 seconds, the next time target foe attacks, you steal 10..34..40 Health And that foe loses all adrenaline.]

I like this idea.

Bowstring Badass · Apr 13, 2008, 01:44 AM // 01:44

What is wrong with blood magic? Any way making stuff into hexes = less damage remember that so it is more or less a nerf.

Fuzzy Taco · Apr 13, 2008, 02:28 AM // 02:28

since when has blood magic ever been good damage, unless there were 8 necros on your team?

Blood Magic sucks in its current form. it's got a few good support skills and a couple good offensive spells sprinkled in with a batch of fail DDs.

Trvth Jvstice · Apr 13, 2008, 02:49 AM // 02:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fuzzy Taco

Blood Magic sucks in its current form. it's got a few good support skills and a couple good offensive spells sprinkled in with a batch of fail DDs.

Those few good offensive skills are what makes most Necs want the Blood line revamped to be able to carry at least a partial bar of blood skills. As it is, those few offensive skills are used for soloing. I would LOVE to play 16 in Blood again, just like the old days when I thought A-Echoing Life Transfer was awesome.

I really like Carinae's comparison of Blood Necromanser's to Vampires, especially the "feeding" part.

Notice I used "Blood Line" and "reVAMPed" in a post about Blood Necros, pretty good huh.

Iraka · Apr 13, 2008, 03:07 AM // 03:07

I'd like to see more skills that involve bleeding and deep wound. Although deep wound is very loosely related, those conditions pretty much scream blood magic if you think about actual blood magic, and not this rubbish in Guild Wars.

Although it is in horrible need of a buff as it is in my opinion, one of the least useful attributes for PvE, it also needs a revamp in concept! When I made my necromancer, I saw blood magic and thought that'd be really awesome, everything would be related to blood. But in reality, very little is. There are absolutely no skills that cause bleeding to the enemy, which is silly as when I think of blood .. bleeding tends to come to mind. Deep wound also loosely could fit in, I know it's a powerful condition .. but I think it'd make sense to include it. Weakening even could work, as when you lose a lot of blood you tend to feel lightheaded and weak.

Sample spells: (Few names, norecharge/E-cost/cast time... I'm not good like that)

Unknown: If foe is bleeding, you put pressure on the wound ripping it open into a deep wound.

Aneurysm: Destroy the arteries of your enemy, leaving them weakened

Unknown: Blood rushes to the brain, leaves opponent dazed.

Unknown: Blind enemy by filling their eyes with blood. Causes blindness and bleeding (Bleeding naturally because blood would pour out of your eyes.)

High Blood Pressure (Elite maybe?): Artery bursts, causes bleeding and deep wound. Inflicts moderate/significant damage. Possible deny from attack skills for short duration.

This is only 5 minutes worth of thinking .. I'm sure with work on this concept .. it could be a good blood magic. Not just life stealing junk.

Moloch Vein · Apr 13, 2008, 05:08 AM // 05:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drakken Breathes Fire

I would've taken a different direction with Ravenous Gaze;

RAVENOUS GAZE

[ORIGINAL FORM]
[Energy Cost:10][Casting Time:1][Recharge Time:5]
Elite Spell
[Steals 15...27 Health. Steals 15...75 more if your Health is still below 50%.]

[SUGGESTED CHANGE]
[Energy Cost:5][Casting Time:2][Recharge Time:5]
Elite Spell
[Steal 5-15% health from target foe. (max 60) Steal an additional 5-15% for each recharging blood magic skill. (max 90.) If target foe is suffering from poison or disease, you also suffer those conditions for 25 seconds. This skill is easily interrupted.]

My problem with this change is two-fold.

First of all, it's a pretty "messy" description. This would make Arenanet very unlikely to implement this change. Second, it's not going to be used for anything "good" in PvP... not with two seconds casting time and easy interrupt. If it would see play it would see play in Bloodspike. I seriously doubt anyone would want to waste their elite slot on that spell, though.

As for your suggested change to Blood of the Aggressor, I like it, but I think it's too strong for a non-elite spell at 5 seconds recharge. Maybe "and lose 1-3 strikes of adrenaline"?

Moloch Vein · Apr 13, 2008, 05:12 AM // 05:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kale Ironfist

Dropping their adrenaline by ~6-7 strikes is quite strong, especially since a Shock Axe only holds 8 at most. At 10 second recharge, you'd be stopping a Warrior from being able to commit to a spike for the entire match in a PvP setting.

Well, Wail of Doom used to be able to do that, and that spell was never used in GvG, despite even not being a hex and thus not removable. I actually think the best way to make the change _would_ be to set it to 10 seconds recharge, to make people try it out, and then nerfing the recharge slightly, maybe to 15. But I'm not sure.

Drakken Breathes Fire · Apr 13, 2008, 08:21 AM // 08:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trvth Jvstice

I really like Carinae's comparison of Blood Necromanser's to Vampires, especially the "feeding" part.

That's because it's the most accurate description. Hence the skills Vampiric Gaze, Swarm, Touch, Bite, Aura, Order of the Vampire, ect.

upier · Apr 13, 2008, 09:00 AM // 09:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moloch Vein

Please remember, even though this is the N PvE forum, that the skill balances must consider both the PvE and PvP side of the game. In other words, don't try to turn every skill into Great Dwarf Weapon or Save Yourselves.

You just explained WHY this is a bad idea.
IF you want to do something about it - then the Necro PvE forum is not only a bad idea but possibly THE single worst idea where to put this.
Skill balance CAN NOT happen with ANYTHING outside of high end PvP in mind.
So unless this is just a thread for people to hear themselves speak - there is VERY little point to it (having it HERE!)

Moloch Vein · Apr 13, 2008, 09:14 AM // 09:14

Well, there is no Necromancer PvP forum. And some people post here that have experience in PvP.

Really I don't think it matters too much where we put it. It could certainly be moved, I don't really care.

You should perhaps, rather than just dismissing the idea outright, give some input on the suggested changes or maybe come up with something yourself. Otherwise it's just negative posting.

Turbobusa · Apr 13, 2008, 09:48 AM // 09:48

BLOOD OF THE AGGRESSOR

[ORIGINAL FORM]
[Sacrifice:5%][Energy Cost:5][Casting Time:1][Recharge Time:3]
Spell
[Steals 5...41 Health if target foe was attacking. Otherwise, deals 5...41 damage.]

[SUGGESTED CHANGE]
[Sacrifice:5%][Energy Cost:5][Casting Time:1][Recharge Time:5]
Hex Spell
[For 6 seconds, the next time target foe attacks, you steal 15...63...79 Health.]

Way too strong. I would up the recharge to 10. You're sure to meet the condition when casting that if you don't cast it on an ele...

I like the second change tho. Maybe a higher recharge also, 2 foes hexed steals for about the same as SS, that's a bit too strong to me.