Curse

Moloch Vein · Jul 24, 2008, 02:01 PM // 14:01

So, what you're saying is that you play that bar to do damage. What I'm saying is that you can do more damage than that plus shut down targets with a few changes to the bar.

I'm not saying "you must run this or that". You're perfectly allowed to run whatever you want. However, you cannot expect to post a bar on the forum without people discussing it.

Calista Blackblood · Jul 24, 2008, 02:14 PM // 14:14

[spiteful spirit][reckless haste][mark of pain][barbs][enfeebling blood]

probably the most potent 5 skills you can have on a curse bar(unless you get flashy).there really is no need to run /Me and 3 relatively high cost, single target trashy skills when necros themselves have soo much potency available in 1 skill line

Tyla · Jul 24, 2008, 02:20 PM // 14:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moloch

Splinter Weapon is a fine skill but it's completely outclassed by Mark of Pain which does not require you to switch ally/foe, not to mention Barbs (though that's a different effect.)

Splinter also triggers Mark of Pain, and what's wrong with foe / ally switching? Too difficult?

Quote:

And Ancestor's Rage is positively trash for any serious PvE.

lol. Below 14 spec, maybe, but it is still effective in terms of damage.

Apart from that, I agree.

Quote:

Originally Posted by komma

again you are generalizing necromancers as support, and again i do not play support in pve

It's not a generalisation. It's truth.

A midliner is a support character.

Tyla · Jul 24, 2008, 02:44 PM // 14:44

Auto-attacking an enemy with Barbs / Mark of Pain on them. More AoE damage and possibly a second MoP triggered with Splinter Weapon active.

Snow Bunny · Jul 24, 2008, 02:54 PM // 14:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by komma

this game is open and free for users to cater builds to thier own play styles, mine is simply killing....but then again i knew all the criticisms would come when i posted the build.

Komma, you said that you knew better and that your build 'pwns' everything.

Every player on a pve team has an obligation to somehow shutdown enemy offense/defense if their bar will allow it. It's called passive defense.

Your curses bar simply is simply a lot of fire-and-forget skills, and the only thing that's fortunate is that Barbs has a 5sec recharge and Necrosis has a 2sec.

Moloch Vein · Jul 24, 2008, 02:59 PM // 14:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

Splinter also triggers Mark of Pain, and what's wrong with foe / ally switching? Too difficult?

It's both inconvenient and not very good in terms of the attribute spread. The Splinter Weapon goes better on another character (you know, maybe even a rit!) that's more focused on this job.

Quote:

lol. Below 14 spec, maybe, but it is still effective in terms of damage.

It's bad in high-level PvE even at 16 spec.

As for Komma: I haven't used SS bars for several months now, but if you want me to produce a stronger option from what you have right now... sure...

I'll assume you want to keep your Pain Inverter and your Cry of Pain or Necrosis.It's actually a little hard to integrate CoP in a N build because all mesmer hexes suck.

CoP version:

[build prof=N/Me Curses 12+1+3 Soulr=11+1 Domi=6][Air of Superiority][Spiteful Spirit][Mark of Pain][Barbs][Reckless Haste][Pain Inverter][Wastrel's Worry][Cry of Pain][/build]

Necrosis version:

[build prof=N/Any Curses 12+1+3 Soulr=12+1][Air of Superiority][Spiteful Spirit][Mark of Pain][Barbs][Pain Inverter][Reckless Haste][Necrosis][Signet of Lost Souls][/build]

Yes, I know... no SoLS on CoP version... but Air is e-management too, albeit irregular, and you have 12 SR.

All things considered... this is weaker than going N/A but still pretty efficient.

komma · Jul 24, 2008, 03:05 PM // 15:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snow Bunny

Komma, you said that you knew better and that your build 'pwns' everything.

it does

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snow Bunny

Every player on a pve team has an obligation to somehow shutdown enemy offense/defense if their bar will allow it. It's called passive defense.

says whom...this is a general strategy, however not mine...passive defense nty, aggresive offense, yes please...my heroes worry about the rest...oh and if im pugging i might bring res.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moloch Vein

this is weaker than going N/A but still pretty efficient.

AP is good for nm, SS is better in hm. i also still prefer backfire for caster hate.

Moloch Vein · Jul 24, 2008, 03:09 PM // 15:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by komma

says whom...this is a general strategy, however not mine...passive defense nty, aggresive offense, yes please...

This statement shows that you do not quite understand the thinking I'm trying to explain to you.

Your bar isn't an aggressive offense bar. It's reactive hexing. You rely on your foes to produce your damage output.

An N/A Mark/AP nuker bar is an example of "aggressive" hexing. Spiteful Spirit is a passive skill.

What you are running is a bar full of reactive hexes which fails to mitigate the enemy offense that is necessary for you to produce damage. This is a fundamental flaw.

Spiteful Spirit is only better than Assassin's Promise if your team is weak and unable to kill stuff with regularity.

komma · Jul 24, 2008, 03:13 PM // 15:13

sure it is reactive hexing and that was how i designed it...you attack, your eff'd, you cast your eff'd, once i have my reactive skills on you then i pound you down w necrosis, cop. i roll w an mm so barbs is constant dmg, and lots of it w 8-10 minions. so ok you classify it as reactive hexing but the ai will attack or cast regardless, they dont act like real players. so either way they are all eff'd. i knew exactly what i was doing and how i wanted to play when i made the build and it is perfect for my style.

Tyla · Jul 24, 2008, 03:16 PM // 15:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moloch

It's both inconvenient and not very good in terms of the attribute spread. The Splinter Weapon goes better on another character (you know, maybe even a rit!) that's more focused on this job.

At 10 spec it deals 35 damage per hit. If there is no available Ritualist in the party, I would put it on another midliner. This skill is just too sexy to pass up, and coupled with Mark of Pain it's even better.

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It's bad in high-level PvE even at 16 spec.

Can I have your reasoning? This skill is awesome, regardless of PvE and PvP. Free damage every 8 seconds, but if you don't have melee I understand why.

Quote:

Originally Posted by komma

AP is good for nm, SS is better in hm.

Can I see your reasoning please? I think you've been using too much Sabway.

Calista Blackblood · Jul 24, 2008, 03:20 PM // 15:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by komma

AP is good for nm

so what makes AP better than SS in NM? in fact do you even know the actual build based point of AP?

komma · Jul 24, 2008, 03:23 PM // 15:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

Can I see your reasoning please? I think you've been using too much Sabway.

well i really only run ap when im puggin, and i've found teams can be inconsistant or weaker which tends to lead to enemies staying alive longer than the duration of ap...ss is just a more stable build in hm w pugs is all i meant. oh and i dont run sabway.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Calista Blackblood

so what makes AP better than SS in NM? in fact do you even know the actual build based point of AP?

just faster spike kills is all...and yes i know the wiki ap build if that is what your getting at, and have tweaked that one aswell, if you would like to see it.

ac1inferno · Jul 24, 2008, 03:24 PM // 15:24

I see /Me the most for Arcane Echo and it seems to make the most sense since SS Necros generally don't need much skills from other professions. I guess you could go /Mo or /Rt for a hard res like Rebirth or Death Pact Signet if you don't like Arcane Echo. You could also go /E for Glyph of Lesser Energy if you're really bad at managing your energy or if you don't want to put so much in Soul Reaping.

Moloch Vein · Jul 24, 2008, 03:32 PM // 15:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

At 10 spec it deals 35 damage per hit. If there is no available Ritualist in the party, I would put it on another midliner. This skill is just too sexy to pass up, and coupled with Mark of Pain it's even better.

I agree, but I'd put it on a defensive midliner. I feel a PvE player character curser is strongest when all his attribute points go into churning out and maintaining the hex web, and focuses on killing things. _IF_ I'm dualling into "beneficial party-wide defense" (not "malus to the enemy defense") I usually spec N/P with Incoming, TNTF and Air, or if I _really_ have to (no PvE para available), I go /W with all shouts, spear and SY/Protector's Defense/etc.

Quote:

Can I have your reasoning? This skill is awesome, regardless of PvE and PvP. Free damage every 8 seconds, but if you don't have melee I understand why.

It's too little damage to really be worth it. Yes, I use melee, in the sense that either I have melee characters or I have melee summons. So, Ancestor's is going to find a target, it's not that. But the damage output of ~110 lightning damage every 8 seconds isn't worth it for me. If it had actually BEEN 110 damage, sure. It's more like 30-40.

(Parenthesis: I would never spec a character into Channeling for just Splinter Weapon. Nightmare Weapon is glued to any bar with a Channeling spec as well for me. So, that's 2 slots.)

Tyla · Jul 24, 2008, 03:43 PM // 15:43

In terms of it being AoE and being determined by how many enemies, I'm sure the position could be adjusted. The more enemies the better, and since it's 5 energy every 8 seconds, if you manage to get your melee guy in the right position you could deal quite alot of damage in terms of AoE. That's why it's stapled to my bars if I have room. Splinter comes first, but there are some things that surpass the ability of Ancestors in terms of the support from Necromancer skills.

Quote:

Originally Posted by komma

just faster spike kills is all...and yes i know the wiki ap build if that is what your getting at, and have tweaked that one aswell, if you would like to see it.

If you're killing stuff fast, AP is awesome. Why you aren't killing stuff fast in PvE is beyond me.

AP allows you to practically spam your bar, as long as you don't fail at killing.

Tyla · Jul 24, 2008, 07:09 PM // 19:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by komma

idk what this is supposed to mean...but if being pwetty snowflake means not being noob wiki build running necro than sure.

You do know that alot of the builds on wiki are used because they are effective and do the job to some extent but can be improved?

komma · Jul 24, 2008, 07:16 PM // 19:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

You do know that alot of the builds on wiki are used because they are effective and do the job to some extent but can be improved?

d'uh and you do know that every tom dick and harry that cant create a build for themselves goes to wiki to find something to suit them. therefore meaning the majority of the game population (which does use wiki for builds) are playing and running the same builds, so when something different comes along its like oh noes what are you running....i think your heads would explode if you saw my 55 paragon build.

Moloch Vein · Jul 24, 2008, 07:28 PM // 19:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by komma

d'uh and you do know that every tom dick and harry that cant create a build for themselves goes to wiki to find something to suit them. therefore meaning the majority of the game population (which does use wiki for builds) are playing and running the same builds, so when something different comes along its like oh noes what are you running....i think your heads would explode if you saw my 55 paragon build.

Alright, I have to respond to that.

Your build is an example of old thinking. It's a generic SS necromancer build, combined with some skills that mediocre necromancers mistakenly stuck on their bar when Prophecies came out. (Or, actually, not so bad at that point, since there were much fewer skills.) It's working on a passive hexing principle, which is also the way the N game was played in the beginning of PvE. On top of that you've stuck a PvE skill that follow the same routine (Pain Inverter) and added Cry of Pain, which basically is Desecrate Enchantments, plus Necrosis, which is the new Dark Pact.

This is nothing new. This is how you design a N Curses bar if you're playing with very bad heroes, very bad henchmen and very bad fellow players.

The AP/MoP build, for example, as an example of what you deride as "cookie-cutter", is not actually cookie-cutter at all. It is not used in Tank'n'Spank. It was designed not even one year ago and posted on pvx. Most people's instinctive reaction was to tell us it sucked.

This is an example of the "new" style of Curses thinking, where you hit stuff until it falls over and dies. Your most valuable asset isn't your enemies running around with their heads up their asses trying to hit you; it's the effective damage dealing of your fellow players.

To sum it up, what you're advocating is a type of bar and a type of playing that every experienced necromancer has gone through and since surpassed.

Parenthesis and add-on: For further examples of discussions between "old" and "new" thinking, may I refer you to these builds and the talk pages for said builds:

http://www.pvxwiki.com/wiki/User:Mol...selves_Soldier
http://www.pvxwiki.com/wiki/User:Mol...P_Knee_Cracker
http://www.pvxwiki.com/wiki/Build:N/...ysical_Support

That's all.

Moloch Vein · Jul 24, 2008, 07:48 PM // 19:48

Mark of Pain spammers aren't used for a tank'n'spank config. Mark of Pain induces a whole shitload of scatter, which is the nightmare of a tank'n'spank team, while it is actually an asset for a good one.

The rest of your post has been answered already.

zwei2stein · Jul 24, 2008, 07:48 PM // 19:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moloch Vein

I don't understand what you mean. Please explain.

Come on, Reading comprehension?

["There's Nothing to Fear!"] + [Incoming] > [Enfeebling Blood] on curses necromancer is wrong

Key points:

1 elite slot + 1 pve only slot << 1 normal skill slot
2 skills providing 1/2 together coverage << 1 skill providing 24/7 coverage
2 skills stacked doing same thing for 1/4 of coverage << 1 skill doing same thing 24/7
X-points in command << No extra needed points anywhere.
Being N/P << Being N/Any

Quote:

idk what this is supposed to mean...but if being pwetty snowflake means not being noob wiki build running necro than sure.

Considering that wiki suggests arcane echoing SS, you are half right.

But you must understand that being original because you want to be different does NOT make you or your build good.

Discarding any stuff just because it is on wiki or overused is not smart either.

You either play effectively and should care s*** about whether whatever you use is on wiki or play as snowflake.