Curse

Chthon · Oct 04, 2008, 06:55 PM // 18:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by zwei2stein

So, you claim that 10e 110-130hp heal on self only is more effcient than 50% physical damage reduction on whole party and/or 10% damage cap on any ally under fire?

That Self heal will not keep you alive in HM if you get under fire. PS does keep ally alive.

You fundamentally misunderstand. Your self-heal is not for offsetting monster damage done to you personally. It's for offsetting your life sacs. You're not spending 10e for another 110hp for yourself. You're spending 15e for an extra 1,220hp worth of minion flesh standing between you and the monsters. And, yes, that is worth more than aegis or PS.

Once the monk loses the ability to babysit you on your life sacs, either you pay for them, or the "wall" collapses for lack of healing. There's nothing you can put on your bar that's worth more than the ability to pay for your own sacs when you have to. Paying for the monk's prots and then hoping that he'll always be able to pay for your heals in return when you need them is unwise.

Quote:

(ps: courage and sy armor buffs don't stack, weaker one is redundant.)

Perhaps it's been stealth-fixed since then, but last I checked there was a bug that excluded EBSofCourage from the armor cap entirely. It stacks with anything (or, at least it used to and I believe it still does).

[/QUOTE]

upier · Oct 05, 2008, 07:12 AM // 07:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

You fundamentally misunderstand. Your self-heal is not for offsetting monster damage done to you personally. It's for offsetting your life sacs. You're not spending 10e for another 110hp for yourself. You're spending 15e for an extra 1,220hp worth of minion flesh standing between you and the monsters. And, yes, that is worth more than aegis or PS.

Once the monk loses the ability to babysit you on your life sacs, either you pay for them, or the "wall" collapses for lack of healing. There's nothing you can put on your bar that's worth more than the ability to pay for your own sacs when you have to. Paying for the monk's prots and then hoping that he'll always be able to pay for your heals in return when you need them is unwise.

It's not like GW is a team game where everyone would do the thing that they do best, but rather a game where everyone needs to do everything - regardless of how bad they are at it.

Now I am not saying that what you are arguing won't work - it's PvE and we are talking about the superiority of MMs, which says everything about how broken this place is - what I am saying is the monk dropping that WoH on the MM instead of the MM investing into a sub-par heal thus freeing up attribute points and skill slots for something as superior as Aegis and PS is the better option.

Super Igor · Oct 05, 2008, 12:49 PM // 12:49

That is the most terible necro build I have ever evar AVURRRRRRR seen plz tell that guy to shut up, call him a nub and kick him from your guild or ask someone 2 do it OK?

Carinae · Oct 06, 2008, 12:37 AM // 00:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

what I am saying is the monk dropping that WoH on the MM instead of the MM investing into a sub-par heal thus freeing up attribute points and skill slots for something as superior as Aegis and PS is the better option.

Sure, from a team point-of-view, it's more efficient....except when the monk dies. Neither way is really 'better' as they both have weaknesses. One has a little more character resiliency at the expense of team resiliency, the other vice-versa.

The 'self-heal on the MM' camp (which includes me) errors on the side of caution. It's not always the best strategy, but it's rarely the worst.

zwei2stein · Oct 06, 2008, 06:30 AM // 06:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carinae Dragonblood

Sure, from a team point-of-view, it's more efficient....except when the monk dies. Neither way is really 'better' as they both have weaknesses. One has a little more character resiliency at the expense of team resiliency, the other vice-versa.

The 'self-heal on the MM' camp (which includes me) errors on the side of caution. It's not always the best strategy, but it's rarely the worst.

Well, you ideally want to have two monks and combat resses.

Anyway, if you want really resilient MM at cost of utility why not just run AoTL/Dark Bond/Mystic Regen/(Infuse condition)? You can actually *SPAM* BoTM that way.

upier · Oct 06, 2008, 09:31 AM // 09:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carinae Dragonblood

Sure, from a team point-of-view, it's more efficient....except when the monk dies. Neither way is really 'better' as they both have weaknesses. One has a little more character resiliency at the expense of team resiliency, the other vice-versa.

The 'self-heal on the MM' camp (which includes me) errors on the side of caution. It's not always the best strategy, but it's rarely the worst.

Ok let's look at the "the monk dies" situation again.
What is being argued is that the effect of the self heal is able to surpass the fact that you aren't providing party wide defense with skills like Aegis or PS.
Your monk died.
Once again - your monk died.

Now, as previously stated, this can be the result of pretty much two series of events:
1. your monk is bad. Like really bad.
Which means that the remaining monk will have to take care of the whole party now.
The point of your self-heal is this:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

You fundamentally misunderstand. Your self-heal is not for offsetting monster damage done to you personally. It's for offsetting your life sacs. You're not spending 10e for another 110hp for yourself. You're spending 15e for an extra 1,220hp worth of minion flesh standing between you and the monsters. And, yes, that is worth more than aegis or PS.

Once the monk loses the ability to babysit you on your life sacs, either you pay for them, or the "wall" collapses for lack of healing. There's nothing you can put on your bar that's worth more than the ability to pay for your own sacs when you have to. Paying for the monk's prots and then hoping that he'll always be able to pay for your heals in return when you need them is unwise.

Your self-heal isn't there to support the party - it's there to support yourself. Plus, if you get targeted - the time when you'd need your self-support the most - it fails. You are going to need the monk healing you.
And the monk won't be healing you to offset the saccing - he'll be healing to keep you alive - while you sure as hell don't sac yourself.
Now if on the other hand you had brought protection you'd be able to help the party. You remove hexes, conditions and throw out that Aegis/PS. You are able to assist the monk. This probably means that your Wall will be a bit weaker - but there are very few instances where you can't just raise more stiffies. But it's not like this isn't to be expected - you are running with one monk only! Your party will be weaker by default!
Plus this also means that if you DO get targeted - you are able to help yourself. You throw that PS on you, Aegis on the party and the monks job is miraculously easier. And not only that - you are able to do that for ANY party member.
In that situation I do not see how a self-heal can even come close to running Protection. (And especially not something like Heal Area. Skills that you can use while being targeted or even use on others without needing to stand next to them would preform better - Patient Spirit or Heal Party @9 come to mind - but even that will have issues because Protection works REALLY nicely without having to max the attribute - contrary to Healing and the lack of DF!)

2. the monk isn't bad - but he died.
Which means something went really, really wrong.
If a character that is designed to keep himself and other alive can't achieve that - you were outmatched. And if we have a MM present when that happens - you can be pretty sure your Wall isn't working. And if your Wall isn't working - that means that the skills you brought to support the Wall are also useless.
So in this case Protection needs to at least be useless to match your self-heal.
If the monk died because of a one-shot hit (even a few huge hits for that matter) - PS can help with that. Your self-heal won't.
If you have physicals attacking the guy - Aegis will do wonders. Your self-heal won't.
If Protection doesn't end up being shit - it's better then the self-heal.

So - in which situation does the self-heal not only surpass investing into Protection but it surpasses Protection to the extent to negate this failure?

Cathode_Reborn · Oct 06, 2008, 10:14 AM // 10:14

I've never been a fan of using any self-heals in PvE. If I had to use one on an MM, it'd be something that can be casted on allies.

AotL + Spirit Light is a great combo. MM elites arn't all that great so if you really wanted to, you could even use WoH. A well-timed Wail of Doom could save your team from what could've been a high damage spell. Even Xinrae's Weapon works well at 0 spec, and a human can use it to pre-prot.