Curse

FoxBat · Dec 10, 2008, 02:48 AM // 02:48

Did we suddenly forget why melee heroes suck? Something about them needing to move to their target, and generally running all over the place back and forth like complete idiots? The bone fiends attack faster as well. In a general sabway or discord type bar, no I wouldn't use them, they make bad bombs and its harder to get them to clump on an enemy for barbs. If I was playing with OoU then yes absolutely, mix that with a few vampiric horrors for safety and gogo. If you're trying to maximize OoU then you will take whatever things you need like glyph or SolS to make the energy work.

Minion bombers really aren't that hard to play either, although it can get tiring. Advantage is you can manually trigger explosions for damage instead of praying for things to die, and I'd really like mindbender because the 2s cast on a 0r spell is annoying.

The Meth · Dec 10, 2008, 02:55 AM // 02:55

Personally I have never found hero minion bombers to be worthwhile, you end up with half or more of the death nova's being too late and fizzling. Mindbender death nova would be awesome if you wanted to MM as a player, but a player necro should be abusing these things.

Calista Blackblood · Dec 10, 2008, 02:58 AM // 02:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by snaek

[deathly swarm] comment was analagous to having a bad build or bad playstyle
i was statin that this isnt sumptin that shouldnt be done...
but is actually quite commonly done
perhaps i shoud have been more blunt

Yeah and I was making fun of a bad skill

Quote:

calling mm's the worst minion type is highly ignorant

Who did this?

Quote:

if upkeeping 50+ fiends before the nerf wasnt a problem
then surely upkeepin 10 fiends should not be a problem

Fundemental mechanics difference pre change and post change

Chthon · Dec 10, 2008, 03:01 AM // 03:01

1. Xenomortis's post is essentially correct.

2. Fiends ARE the best damage. There can be no question about that. Yes, they do 50% more base damage, plus a bit more for not having to move to change targets, but that's trivial compared to their real advantage: 50% more armor ignoring damage from damage from OoU, from EBSofHonor, from MoP, from Barbs, etc.. To argue otherwise is silly.

3. Yes, the 25e cost of fiends is downright painful under the gimped soul reaping. They're still worth building around though.

4.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moloch Vein

Seems nobody has pointed this out yet, so... oh well, I'll do it again:

All minions do exactly the same amount of damage per hit if the level is equal.

All minions attack at the same speed except Bone Fiends.

Perhaps I misremember, but I *think* I recall testing this and finding that the golem did higher damage at the same level. Not sure. Doesn't matter since no one uses a low level golem anyway.

Anywho, Moloch's main point is correct -- the minions are basically identical, save for a few variations on a theme. (Fiends are ranged and 50% faster attack. Fiends and minions are only 3 armor/level while the others are 4 armor/level. Fleshie is overleveled; jaggeds are slightly underleveled; minions are very underleveled. Vamps heal you. Jaggeds do bleeding.)

5.

Quote:

Originally Posted by snaek

its funny how the ppl in this thread r sayin that bone fiends r too expensive for necros
while in numerous other threads, ppl say that soul reaping provides infinite energy in pve

I'd be laughing at the irony if I wasn't crying about how badly the SR nerf has messed up my necro.

The Meth · Dec 10, 2008, 03:29 AM // 03:29

According to wiki, Flesh golems at lvl 18 do about 2x as much damage as other minions per hit. Still doesn't make it good, though a whole team of necros that buff themself up to lvl 34 flesh golems that apparently do 94-184 damage a hit would be cool.

Anyway, of course having a whole team of fiends is gonna drain energy and die fairly quick since you wont be able to support/heal/raise them. Noone is contesting that. Any necro wanting damage out of their minions other then through bombing though should have 3-5ish fiends. Slightly weaker minions are blocked protected by the frontal wall anyway and the payoff is high. Any MM worth their salt is going to be casting BotM at least once every 4-5 seconds to heal the melee minions, and that healing will also clean up any incidental damage that made it past the front line.

snaek · Dec 10, 2008, 04:00 AM // 04:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Calista BlackBlood

Yeah and I was making fun of a bad skill

Who did this?

Fundemental mechanics difference pre change and post change

typo
i meant fiends

and yes...different mechanics
but roughly scaled similarly in difficulty

in fact if there was no cap on max amount of minions
but the same sr cap of rite now
it'd be safe to say that one can upkeep 15-20 fiends

Zodiac Meteor · Dec 11, 2008, 03:25 AM // 03:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by EmpressOfFlame

I saw a list somewhere a long time ago, regarding minions and which did the most dmg.
P.S.
If I replace Flesh Golem with another Elite, what should it be for an MM?

Well, where you saw it might be The Most Damage you've Done in 30 Seconds Contest.

Iron Sheik killed himself till he had 1hp, 3 cons and 4 skills.
He did 11k damage in 30 seconds to the master of Damage. I'm a witness.

[Animate Flesh [email protected]] is most likely your best choice for a MM.
[Order of [email protected]] might be suicidal if your not careful.

[well of [email protected]] will give your minions HP and help party, but it costs a body.

Xenomortis · Dec 11, 2008, 09:46 PM // 21:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zodiac Meteor

Well, where you saw it might be The Most Damage you've Done in 30 Seconds Contest.

Iron Sheik killed himself till he had 1hp, 3 cons and 4 skills.
He did 11k damage in 30 seconds to the master of Damage. I'm a witness.

[Animate Flesh [email protected]] is most likely your best choice for a MM.
[Order of [email protected]] might be suicidal if your not careful.

[well of [email protected]] will give your minions HP and help party, but it costs a body.

[Animate Flesh Golem] is almost certeinly not your best choice - it's easy to run and provides a nice minion for [Dark Bond], but it's hardly worth your elite if you have better.

Be a man and run [order of undeath] - the health sacrifice is the least of your concerns if you have a decent self heal/regen.

System_Crush · Dec 12, 2008, 06:03 PM // 18:03

With the new update [Signet of Ghostly Might] apparently increase the attack speed and damage of minions as well as spirits, get 2 days use out of it before the bug get's fixed and it affects only spirits as the description says.

The Meth · Dec 13, 2008, 12:26 AM // 00:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by System_Crush

With the new update [Signet of Ghostly Might] apparently increase the attack speed and damage of minions as well as spirits, get 2 days use out of it before the bug get's fixed and it affects only spirits as the description says.

Wow, thats pretty awesome. Basically makes everything but fiends attack at fiend speed and makes fiends attack as fast as swords/axes. The damage buff is about half of that of OoU, and it doesn't cost energy or health. Not worth having my necro cap the skill for though since I know its gonna be changed back asap.

Carinae · Dec 13, 2008, 08:45 AM // 08:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

1. Xenomortis's post is essentially correct.

2. Fiends ARE the best damage. There can be no question about that. Yes, they do 50% more base damage, plus a bit more for not having to move to change targets, but that's trivial compared to their real advantage: 50% more armor ignoring damage from damage from OoU, from EBSofHonor, from MoP, from Barbs, etc.. To argue otherwise is silly.

3. Yes, the 25e cost of fiends is downright painful under the gimped soul reaping. They're still worth building around though.

4.

Perhaps I misremember, but I *think* I recall testing this and finding that the golem did higher damage at the same level. Not sure. Doesn't matter since no one uses a low level golem anyway.

Anywho, Moloch's main point is correct -- the minions are basically identical, save for a few variations on a theme. (Fiends are ranged and 50% faster attack. Fiends and minions are only 3 armor/level while the others are 4 armor/level. Fleshie is overleveled; jaggeds are slightly underleveled; minions are very underleveled. Vamps heal you. Jaggeds do bleeding.)

5.

I'd be laughing at the irony if I wasn't crying about how badly the SR nerf has messed up my necro.

Thank you very much for saving me the time of having to bitchslap people. Fiends are by FAR the best minion damage dealers since they come with a built-in IAS that synergizes well with several damage boosting skills. I do agree that they stress your energy capacity to the limit, especially with the crappy SR we currently have. They are also greatly reduced in effectiveness in EotN, especially in HM. I usually let a hero MB run in EotN, as running fiends personally there is agonizing.

If you really need more energy, run Consume Corpse or Masochism.

Dante the Warlord · Dec 13, 2008, 11:42 PM // 23:42

You guys forget the new Aura of the Lich, which could potentially be a good bone horror/continuous +1 DM elite. And you could be able to run a good MM bomber/ MM hybrid build. I think its worth looking into

Carinae · Dec 16, 2008, 06:09 AM // 06:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zodiac Meteor

Well, where you saw it might be The Most Damage you've Done in 30 Seconds Contest.

Iron Sheik killed himself till he had 1hp, 3 cons and 4 skills.
He did 11k damage in 30 seconds to the master of Damage. I'm a witness.

Couldn't resist.

No cons, 1 PvE skill, 3 heroes set on passive

Damage was ONLY dealt by Fiends!

I'm pretty sure I can come close to doubling that.

Lyynyyrd · Dec 16, 2008, 06:27 AM // 06:27

Warriors wouldn't have problem doing that, because they're easy to heal and prot. Also, Frenzy now = -40 armor. Seriously.

Frenzy always has been -40 armor. In fact, in the beginning of GW it actually stated that you took double damage at the cost of having 40 less armor, but they re-worded it to allow less educated (nerdy) players comprehend the function of the skill.

spun ducky · Dec 16, 2008, 07:09 AM // 07:09

I can't confirm as I haven't had someone to properly test this but just from it happening during missions I think [ebon battle standard of honor] gives the damage bonus to minions within the ward. I was wondering if anyone can confirm as that would be a non elite order of undeath basically.

zwei2stein · Dec 16, 2008, 07:51 AM // 07:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lyynyyrd

Warriors wouldn't have problem doing that, because they're easy to heal and prot.

Minions are easy to heal too. And as always, one party member with prot can trigger enemy AOE nuke skills in "safe" location, making them not a concern (unless you are bad and let monsters live long enough to recharge them.).

Really, teamwork pays.

---

(But why would you run minion master ... oh well.)

Carinae · Dec 16, 2008, 07:51 AM // 07:51

[ebon battle standard of honor] works with minions.

as does: [barbs] [mark of pain] [go for the eyes] [winnowing]

[charge] [fall back] also work, but do not boost damage, obviously.

Carinae · Dec 17, 2008, 04:15 AM // 04:15

Damage was ONLY dealt by Fiends!

Over 1000 dps, and I have a few more adjustments in mind.

Coming soon 1500 dps on a MM!

zwei2stein · Dec 17, 2008, 07:39 AM // 07:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carinae Dragonblood

Damage was ONLY dealt by Fiends!

Over 1000 dps, and I have a few more adjustments in mind.

Coming soon 1500 dps on a MM!

I see 491 DPS. Peak damage is not DPS.

And for some reason I think that you used more skills than animate bone fiends and obigatory BoTM, so no, damage was NOT dealt only by fiends.

10 bone fiends is ~930 packets of physcial damage over 180 seconds and account to ~ 142 DPS. Not Buts and Ifs.

What you did is:

25.6k from fiends.
3.7k from winnowing
14.8 from barbs.
13.9k from EBSoH.
7.3k from OoU

Which is 65K. That was your first attempt. Seccond attempt DPS looks like you decided to use 11-specced Signet of Ghostly Might. that IAS is really worth it :]

(PS: Weaken armor also boosts minion damage. Won't help with Master of damage thou.)

Carinae · Dec 17, 2008, 07:59 AM // 07:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by zwei2stein

I see 491 DPS. Peak damage is not DPS.

I realized my mixup after I posted that. Just got my numbers swapped. My mistake.

Quote:

Originally Posted by zwei2stein

And for some reason I think that you used more skills than animate bone fiends and obigatory BoTM, so no, damage was NOT dealt only by fiends.

Obviously booster skills were used, but only fiends were attacking.

Quote:

Originally Posted by zwei2stein

Which is 65K. That was your first attempt. Seccond attempt DPS looks like you decided to use 11-specced Signet of Ghostly Might. that IAS is really worth it :]

Can't use that with OoU on my bar as well, does it work if a hero uses it?