Curse

Deathscar_97 · Feb 07, 2009, 12:35 AM // 00:35

I know that this topic has been stated and restated since the dawn of Guild Wars itself. Alas, I still need some help. O' MIGHTY GUILD WARS GURUS OF THE WORLD, LEND ME YOUR BLESSINGS OF KNOWLEDGE!!!

I have just recently re-entered the world of GW from my 3-4 year break. The necromancer was/is my first character and has always intrigued my interests far beyond that of any other profession. I have experience playing the minion-master to some extent. I am familiar with the concept of bringing massive amounts of lifeless beings to outnumber and overpower my enemies. I think I know my role is in terms of a group; a support character. I am just wondering if the build has change since I have been gone.

My Build: N/Me 12+4 Death Magic 12+2 Soul Reaping

1.Bitter Chill
2.Deathly Swarm (These 2 so I am not totally defenseless)
3.Well of Suffering
4.Consume Corpse
5.Blood of the Master
6.Vetra's Sacrifice
7.Animate Bone Fiend
8.Animate Vampiric Horror

With this my questions begin!

1.Has the current MM build change at all since I have left/am I doing anything wrong?
2.Are there any specific 2nd prof I need to attain to become a proficient MM?
3.Is Animate Flesh Golem really any good or is it a waste of space? If it is simply another minion, are there any other Elites that would help me or my lifeless friends?

Please help this poor noob out with your glorious advise.

P.S. How do you get the actual skills to show up on the post? I am new to these forums so I don't know.

Hanging Man · Feb 07, 2009, 12:44 AM // 00:44

Well first you really dont need spells like [skill]Deathly swarm[/skill] and [skill] bitter chill[/skill] the mms job is to create minions to attack and also provide body blocking or distractions from other plays.

I personally do not care for [skill]animate flesh golem[/skill] its a nice lvl 20 something golem, but over it isnt too useful in my eyes.
A good variation instead of AFG, is [skill]Jagged bones[/skill] which creates a new minion from the death of the enchanted. Useful since it can also provide essentially an unlimited supply.

i usually prefer to have my heroes run [skill]jagged bones[/skill] and [skill]death nova[/skill]

then again i dont have a necro so this is all speculation and based on my heroes mm, but hey it works

Daenara · Feb 07, 2009, 01:46 AM // 01:46

Moloch Vein has written an indepth guide to playing a necromancer, and has given a few build suggestions in this thread. I suggest you read it, and test some of the builds to see if they're to your liking.

I personally find Flesh Golem to be a weaker choice than something like Jagged Bones or Order of Undeath, however it all comes down to what you feel more comfortable with. Jagged bones requires alot of micromanagement, whereas Flesh Golem is easy for a new player to start off with.

Here are some links to some of the commonly used builds on PvXwiki -
Hybrid MoP MM
Aura of the Lich
Order of Undeath
Icy Veins Bomber

Make sure you read the talk pages as well, there is alot of information about skill usage/variants etc.

Also, here is a guide about the BBCode to get skill icons in your post.

fvomega · Feb 07, 2009, 02:27 AM // 02:27

I like Jagged bones or flesh golom as an elite, cuz they dont die easy, other than that its ok.

Kerwyn Nasilan · Feb 07, 2009, 03:16 AM // 03:16

[jagged bones][death nova] win win win
[ skill ] no spaces

Chthon · Feb 07, 2009, 03:33 AM // 03:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deathscar_97

1.Has the current MM build change at all since I have left/am I doing anything wrong?

Not sure how long you've been away, so I'm going to assume you've been gone since late-Prophecies-era.

Major changes are:
A. Verata's Sacrifice was nerfed to garbage and BotM buffed. BotM is now the only viable minion heal.
B. There is a cap on minions of 2 plus 1 per 2 ranks of Death Magic. You get only 10 minions at 16 Death Magic. Better make em count.
C. Soul Reaping has been nerfed. It's been saddled with an obnoxious timer that punishes you for playing well and killing mobs quickly and painfully randomizes your energy returns. It's impossible to plan your energy expenditures ahead like you used to.
D. Heroes arrived. The AI is incapable of running a decent MM build, but it's quite adept at running a Minion Bomber build. There's a widespread misconception hero minion bombers are so good that human minion masters no longer have place in the game. This is wrong. A good human is lightyears beyond anything a hero can manage. Nonetheless, many people believe the MM is pointless.

I'm going to put specific improvements for your build a little later.

Quote:

2.Are there any specific 2nd prof I need to attain to become a proficient MM?

You need monk. BotM (currently the only viable minion heal) has a 25% hp sac when you have a full army, and must be used every 6.1 sec to maintain minion health (and more frequently during combat). You need something to enable you to offset that health loss, otherwise you'll have to stop healing your minions and let your army collapse if the monk starts to fall behind -- which is exactly the worst possible time for that to happen. You used to have 3 viable options -- Heal Area at 8 Healing Prayers, Mystic Regeneration at 8 Earth Prayers, or Aura of the Lich (at the cost of your elite slot). However, Mystic Regen got nerfed and AotL got changed into something totally different than what it was before; so Heal Area is all that's left.

Quote:

3.Is Animate Flesh Golem really any good or is it a waste of space? If it is simply another minion, are there any other Elites that would help me or my lifeless friends?

It's neither great nor terrible. It's a solid meat shield with solid damage. Order of Undeath is by far a stronger elite, but Fleshie isn't awful.

Quote:

P.S. How do you get the actual skills to show up on the post? I am new to these forums so I don't know.

Put the skillname in square brackets. For example:
[-Order of Undeath-]
minus the extra dashes gives:
[Order of Undeath]

Now for the build comments:

1. Bitter Chill and Deathly Swarm are both bad because they do armor-sensitive cold damage, and that barely tickles monsters as their levels and armor go up late in the NM game and into HM. Discard them.

2. Consume Corpse works for energy management, but Masochism is better. Signet of Lost Souls is also good, but not as good as Masochism.

3. Verata's Sacrifice was nerfed into junk; discard it.

4. Needs Heal Area; shift points from SR to get 8 Healing Prayers.

5. Very, very strongly suggest both Order of Undeath and Ebon Battle Standard of Honor (and grinding to rank 10 in the Vanguard title track). Having every attack by every minion deal an extra +32 armor-ignoring damage is how you make up for being limited to just 10 of them.

6. Every PvE build should have rez or carry rez scrolls, unless you only play with H+H.

7. I've got an interesting change to the basic MM build in store for HM, but I think I'm going to hold off on that for now. It runs so contrary to conventional thinking on the topic (including my own thinking until very recently) that I don't want to post until I have time to do it right and make the reasoning very clear.

[Edit: While Daenara was trying to be helpful by pointing you to the build repository on the wiki, I need to point out that the MM builds there aren't very good at all.]

Deathscar_97 · Feb 07, 2009, 05:35 AM // 05:35

Thanks Chthon, you really helped me out. Your skill suggestions helped me profusely.

Lusciious · Feb 07, 2009, 08:46 AM // 08:46

heres a tip, its better if your hero became a minion master cause to be a good minion master , you need to know who to cast death nova on and theres absolutely no way to beat a hero at that, i'd rather you take another build e.g. http://www.pvxwiki.com/wiki/Build:N/..._of_Pain_Nuker - pretty good build

Xenomortis · Feb 07, 2009, 09:18 AM // 09:18

Everything has pretty much been covered, but here I go anyway.

[Deathly Swarm] - may seem nice at first, but as you progress the damage done becomes pathetic. In general, non-armour ignoring damage is not worthwhile (especially for the necromancer).
[Bitter Chill] - for the same reason, it's cold damage. This time though, the damage is pathetic to begin with.

Any skill dealing cold damage - discard it.

[Animate Flesh Golem] - nice for a newbie and very easy to use. It isn't effective but it's reassuring to see a big fleshy monster beating the shit out of something else.
[Aura of the Lich] - havn't tried this myself yet since the update, but: It seems nice for a +1 to Death Magic and the potential for creating a strong minion, but I wouldn't bother with it. Not worth your elite slot.
[Jagged Bones] - If you manage to target minions mid-fight effectivly, this may be worth while. It's nice for recycling minions, but heroes can do it much better than humans.
[Order of Undeath] - this is a nice way to get big damage from your skeletal pets. Bone fiends work well here and Vampiric Horrors help cover your costs (sacrifice wise). I recommend this for a skilled human MM, but newbies should probably stay away from it until they become confident enough and good enough to deal with the energy and health management required for a build utilizing this skill.

Don't bother with other elites, they're not worthwhile on a MM or MB build.

[Death Nova] - useful on a Minion Bomber build (MB), but tedious and difficult for a human to make good use of this skill - heroes always perform better with it.
[Blood of the Master] - strong, reliable minion heal. The sacrifice can become quite high though, so be careful when spamming it.
[Heal Area] - A reasonable substitute for BotM, however it requires an investment into Healing Prayers, which usually means Soul Reaping is going to recieve a cutback (albeit not a severe one). Depending on your build, this may be a good alternative. Be warned though, Heal Area heals enemies too.
[Taste of Death] - nice way of countering BotM's sacrifice, especially if your using Jagged Bones of Flesh Golem. Not often worth a skill slot however.
[Verata's Sacrifice] - may seem good at first, but the health regen is only there to cancel the natural degeneration of minions. Conditions are rarely threatening for minions and so this isn't worth it. BotM is a better option for a minion heal by far.
[Well of Suffering] - not much point in this really. Degeneration is crap in PvE and you'll want corpses for minions.
[Consume Corpse] - again, not much point. As health management it's weak and too unpredictable. It may teleport you somewhere worse. If you want health management, Signet of Lost Souls is better than this, as is Taste of Death.
[Signet of Lost Souls] - nice energy management if things stop dying, but if that happens you probably won't be casting much. Your call if you bring it or not.

[Animate Bone Fiend] - This minion has the fastest attack rate which makes it good for Order of Undeath. However they're fragile and bunch up a lot, making them very vulnerable to AoE Nukes. They also cost a lot of energy, making it hard to have a lot of them at once, especially when spamming OoU.
[Animate Bone Horror] - is a fairly basic minion. Nothing special but reliable and cheap to summon.
[Animate Bone Minions] - basically summons two of the above, but with a lower level. Only worthwhile if your a MB (which is best run by heroes).
[Animate Vampiric Horror] - may seem nice for the health gain, but they rarely hit for much. They go well with OoU to counter the health loss, but the skill has a long recharge time. Note: They do NOT steal life from the enemy.
[Animate Shambling Horror] - this creates a more durable minion. When it dies it creates a second, but less powerful minion. Potentially worth while if you're in areas with fewer corpses or don't want to be useless if your minions get nuked.

Basically, if you're a human:
Run OoU if you're brave and manly.
Run Flesh Golem or Aura of the Lich if you're a newbie or have nothing else.
Run Jagged Bones (optional) and Death Nova with bone minions (MB) if you can spam DV on every minion you have (which you'll only manage if you're some sort of twitching freak

).

If you're setting up a hero build:
Give them Jagged Bones, Death Nova, Animate Bone Minions and some other stuff. Protective Spirit and Reversal of Fortune are nice.

legacyofkain85 · Feb 07, 2009, 02:07 PM // 14:07

imo switch to curses and let a necro hero do the mm part ,because hero can manage minions far better than a human can

Carinae · Feb 07, 2009, 08:11 PM // 20:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

[Consume Corpse] - again, not much point. As health management it's weak and too unpredictable. It may teleport you somewhere worse. If you want health management, Signet of Lost Souls is better than this, as is Taste of Death.
[Signet of Lost Souls] - nice energy management if things stop dying, but if that happens you probably won't be casting much. Your call if you bring it or not.

While I agree with the rest of your advice, this part is not true.

[Consume Corpse] and [Signet of Lost Souls] provide the same health and energy returns per use, at the same spec. So, it is incorrect to say the SoLS provides better health management or energy management. In fact, CC will be better, because:

1) a MM will be specced at 16DM but probably NOT at 16SR
2) CC has NO recharge time, so it can be used in quick succession.

The downside of CC is that it burns a corpse. But is this really a problem? If you are using CC, then you need energy which means you wouldn't have been able to exploit a corpse anyway, as well as denying said corpse to the enemy.

CC also carries the risk of teleporting you into a swarm of enemies. So, use your head. Be aware of where the corpses are at all times. Also, and very importantly, if you do get teleported into a bad spot, just use CC again. No recharge time!

SoLS is just plain BAD for a MM, Besides being inferior to CC in every way, it requires the MM to stop doing what he needs to be doing (minions) then target an enemy and (try) to get SoLS off before it dies or gets healed.

Masochism has the advantage of being fire-and-forget and also reducing BotM costs to 1-2e. Over the long run this saves you a lot of energy and time, but it obviously won't give you a burst of energy if you need it, the way CC will.

Xenomortis · Feb 07, 2009, 08:37 PM // 20:37

Oops, you're right. CC is superior to SoLS but I wouldn't recommend either really.
I avoid CC purely because it has an irritating teleportation effect that can be unpredictable when it might actually be useful.
SoLS is more reliable but weaker, but requires you to find a target with less than 50% health which may be impossible.

Good energy management outside of Soul Reaping can be a bugger for a MM, but is rarely necessary (because Soul Reaping is still stupidly strong).
The trouble with Masochism is that it will only reduce the cost of BotM and you're unlikely to be casting that too much mid-fight which is when energy management becomes really important.

Chthon · Feb 07, 2009, 11:46 PM // 23:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

[Consume Corpse] - again, not much point. As health management it's weak and too unpredictable. It may teleport you somewhere worse. If you want health management, Signet of Lost Souls is better than this, as is Taste of Death.

Like Car said, the energy return is better than SoLS at realistic attribute levels. I actually tried this during the period when the even-worse 5 sec timer was in effect. Teleporting into danger isn't as much of a problem as you'd think. With decent awareness of where the corpses are, you can usually know ahead of time where you'll land; and you can always just cast again if you do land in a bad spot. Also, on the flip side, you can use it to tele-kite.

Quote:

[Well of Suffering] - not much point in this really. Degeneration is crap in PvE and you'll want corpses for minions.

Single-target degen is crap because you should be able to get more than 20 DPS out of other options. AoE degen, especially big with a AoE range like WoS, can be efficient if it damages foes that you otherwise wouldn't be hurting (or hurting much) until their turn to be targeted rolls around. WoS fills this role spectacularly. It only loses its appeal for extremely fast-killing teams that finish the entire mob before the degen gets to add up to much. Even then, you could say that it's worthwhile as a contingency skill in case you run into a mob that doesn't all roll over and die in a few seconds.

As for the cost in corpses, WoS should only take 1 corpse per mob. The duration is far longer than the fight should be, and the range is big enough to cover the entire mob if you put it in the right place.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

The trouble with Masochism is that it will only reduce the cost of BotM and you're unlikely to be casting that too much mid-fight which is when energy management becomes really important.

On general principles, you should be stomping on BoTM during battle. Getting another 1220 in undead meat shield hp through summoning replacement minions is far more expensive than BotM. Of course, you need to summon replacements too; but you should prioritize healing over replacing old minions mid-battle. (Replacing dead minions is another story.)

Specifically on the usefulness of Maso, I'm not sure how much more I can say than (a) because it conserves an awful lot of energy over the longer term, so you have fewer places where you need a burst, (b) you can always cover a need for a burst with a 15/-1 set and make it up later with SR, and (c) I use Maso and it works very well for me.

(One other thing about Maso: If you're willing to balance the runes and insignias the way you need to run 13 SR (that's dual Sup. runes and leaves you at about 440 hp -- inadvisable for any other build in GW), then you finish BotM's cast 1/3e ahead of where you started. The significance of this is that it reduces your exposure to wasting SR triggers when your energy is only a little short of max from just having cast BotM, so that you are more likely to conserve those triggers until after your next minion when you can fully benefit from them.)

With everything else, I agree.

Xenomortis · Feb 08, 2009, 12:23 AM // 00:23

As I said before with regards to BotM, be careful when spamming. The health sacrifice mounts up very quickly. You advise on spamming it as much as possible, that will create a lot of pressure for you and your monks and should the mob decide you need to die, your teammates will have a lot of healthy undead monsters to deal with (well ok, they're still pretty weak).
Use your discretion really, if it's safe to, then keep your minions alive and conserve energy with Masochism. Otherwise, keep yourself alive and replace minions as needed (which you should be doing anyway).

As for Well of Suffering, I still think it a bit of a waste of a slot and corpse. The AoE degen can mount up, but it takes time and in that time a lot of damage from your teammates will have been done and any enemy monks will probably have negated a lot of that weak degen damage. I suppose however, 6 degeneration with a large AoE isn't to be sneezed at, but I believe there are other skills that could prove to be more useful on your bar. I'll have to think more on that before I decide if I agree or not.

On the subject of CC, my comments on it in my first post can pretty much be disregarded. I've already stated I agree with Carinae and now, you.

Chthon · Feb 08, 2009, 04:29 AM // 04:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

As for Well of Suffering, I still think it a bit of a waste of a slot and corpse. The AoE degen can mount up, but it takes time and in that time a lot of damage from your teammates will have been done and any enemy monks will probably have negated a lot of that weak degen damage. I suppose however, 6 degeneration with a large AoE isn't to be sneezed at, but I believe there are other skills that could prove to be more useful on your bar. I'll have to think more on that before I decide if I agree or not.

Mind if I try to convince you on this point?

1. Don't get me wrong: By no means is WoS so strong that it's head-and-shoulders above other options. Any of a number of PvE-only skills or non-damage skills is a fair competitor for the same skillslot.

2. For teams that can't kill everything at a very quick pace, WoS actually has very good numbers. Assuming, say, 6 monsters, it's 72 overall DPS. If you're killing at 5 sec per monster, that will give you 12 * (30 + 25 + 20 + 15 + 10 + 5) = 1260 in total, and the last monster will have suffered some 360 from degen while you were busy killing the others. And it scales with larger mobs. That's not earth-shattering, but it's better than anything else I can think of for a pure damage role after EBSofHonor and OoU are already on the bar.

3. If WoS gets negated by the enemy monks, then it's probably done its job by drawing their heals all over the place and preventing them from focusing enough on any one target to effectively keep it alive. That's why I'd even consider bringing it on a team with enough damage that the degen usually doesn't have time to add up -- it does an excellent job of adding the necessary pressure to break a troublesome monk. (I'd add that the monster healer AI is very prone to breaking with widespread pressure since it doesn't "understand" when it needs to cut its loses and let someone die in order to save the rest.)

Moloch Vein · Feb 08, 2009, 03:51 PM // 15:51

I believe that you should run Aura of the Lich. It's the best all-around option at the moment. The +1 to Death Magic plus a +1/20 focus makes level 20 minions possible, and that's definitely worth it. Also I might note that for PvP AoTL offers a couple breakpoints (such as Rising Bile.)

Chthon · Feb 08, 2009, 09:04 PM // 21:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moloch Vein

I believe that you should run Aura of the Lich. It's the best all-around option at the moment. The +1 to Death Magic plus a +1/20 focus makes level 20 minions possible, and that's definitely worth it. Also I might note that for PvP AoTL offers a couple breakpoints (such as Rising Bile.)

I don't think I can agree. +1 death is very nice, but one level isn't going to make the minions hit for +17, which is what you lose when you give up OoU. Really, I have a hard time thinking of how any elite is ever going to be worthy to displace OoU simply because of how much it does for your DPS bottom line.

Also, I've had no meaningful success at getting AotL's minion-production aspect to pay off. The recharge is just too long to produce enough minions/time and it's often on recharge when you've got a big pile of corpses you'd like to exploit. Air of Superiority helps, but it doesn't solve the problem. That means you end up playing the same fiend+melee build and swapping OoU for AotL. If fiend+AotL were viable, I'd view AotL in a much better light because of the bar compression.

If you've had better luck compressing bars with AotL, I'd really like to hear how you did it.

Where AotL might shine is on hybrid direct-damage-caster/minion builds, where things like rising/putrid bile take center stage and the minions are more-or-less an afterthought. I'm not sure how strong such builds can be, and I'd really like to see some examples.

Deathscar_97 · Feb 20, 2009, 04:56 AM // 04:56

It took me some time but I think that I have finnaly got a decent MM build. Looking through the A L L the MM forum post was painstaking work. Yet after all of the advise had been read and then some more from the random bystandards from LA and Istan, I believe that I have come up with a fairly nice and effective build. (I works for me

)

N/Mo
12+1+3 Death Magic
9+1Soul Reaping
8 Healing Prayers

[Animate Bone Fiend] [Animate Vampiric Horror] - Obviously my minion spells.The Bone Fiend from my understanding has the fastest attack rate of all the minions, so is nice with [Order of Undeath]. Also the Vampiric Horror adds relief to my Health when paired with [Order of Undeath].
[Signet of Lost Souls]-For Energy Manegment issues. I am fairly capable of finding a mob with -50% Health. (Tab Button FTW)
[Order of Undeath]-Nice elite that adds from what I see as massive amounts of damage (which is sorely needed as MMs from my understanding usualy have no direct damage spells) I saw no need for an oversized minion (I.E. [Animate Flesh Golem]) and AotL just adds minions and I can do that just fine. Although it does add a +1 to Death Magic, I have yet to see where level 19 or level 20 minions make the difference between level 18 minions.
[Feast for the Dead] or [Dwayna's Sorrow]- These are switch-able. Feast is used primarily when I am soloing. Dwayna's Kiss is used when either the healer needs help or just simply put more healing is required at the moment.
[Blood of the Master]-One of my minion healing spells. Works quite well when coupled with Healing Circle. (Cast BotM then imideatly cast Healing Circle to gain back the lost health.)
[Karei's Healing Circle]-Another healing spell. No Health cost to use so it is helpful in that mannor; and for all the people who say that it does heal my enimies, I am fully aware of that and to counter that I follow a simple rule: I am a caster, I stay in the back, where the enimies arn't; or just go where they arn't.
[Resurrection Chant]-Could easily be replaced by another skill. I PvE frequently so it is nice to have in a pinch.

So after reading all of this, (and thank you for doing so,) please, once again, hand me some advise if this build is viable for anything. I realize that I may have skipped over or overlooked something when crafting this, and for that I am sorry in this mannor to have provided an in-adequate build to these benevolent forums.

Thanks again for all the support!!

P.S. When I attempted to link [Aura of the Lich], I belive it had an outdated skill description; not the one described in the post above.

P.S.S I am sorry for all who have read this and felt it was a wast of time. (And for all the people who have read this. I realize that it has been a long post)

Also, please be aware that I am not trying to be a Minion Bomber. That is the Hero's job.

Lourens · Feb 20, 2009, 08:32 AM // 08:32

[order of undeath][animate bone horror][animate vampiric horror][heal area]