Curse

Calista Blackblood · Mar 04, 2009, 04:54 PM // 16:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by ac1inferno

Seems like you say that about every build I post lol. It works for me and I see no problems with it. Mind saying what problems you see with it instead of just saying it's terrible?

No [[mark of pain] no [[barbs] no PvE skills ie:[[ebon vanguard assassin support] no thought into it.(referring to the SS bar)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moloch Vein

Inferno, please link to PvX instead of copy/pasting walls of text, alright? A small quote is one thing; entire build references is quite another.

Moloch is spot on...But don't even do that.If you can't contribute with your own builds or feasable input,don't contribute here at all.

Quote:

http://pvx.wikia.com/wiki/Build:N/Me_SS_Nuker

Oopsie

Anyone with any sense knows that wiki builds are generally terrible and as we can all see it's a copy-pasta direct from wiki.Arcane echoing a reactive hex is bad and the skills mentioned above don't even appear as build variants..

Good day..

ac1inferno · Mar 05, 2009, 05:20 AM // 05:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moloch Vein

Inferno, please link to PvX instead of copy/pasting walls of text, alright? A small quote is one thing; entire build references is quite another.

I just copy the whole thing because it's more likely that people will read the text rather than clicking a link.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Calista BlackBlood

No [[mark of pain] no [[barbs] no PvE skills ie:[[ebon vanguard assassin support] no thought into it.(referring to the SS bar)

Every bar without [[Mark of Pain] or [[Barbs] is automatically labeled as bad by you. Wouldn't you consider that more as a personal preference? The build was designed to facilitate Spiteful Spirit for maximum effect. That's why it has skills that has benefits with combines well with it to make it very powerful and not just random skills that are considered good thrown in. It's true that Mark of Pain and Barbs are good, but I just don't see how it helps with Spiteful Spirit so it's not in the build.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Calista BlackBlood

Moloch is spot on...But don't even do that.If you can't contribute with your own builds or feasable input,don't contribute here at all.

Because it's always original builds that help people and not universally accepted generic build.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Calista BlackBlood

Oopsie

Anyone with any sense knows that wiki builds are generally terrible and as we can all see it's a copy-pasta direct from wiki.Arcane echoing a reactive hex is bad and the skills mentioned above don't even appear as build variants..

Good day..

Saying wiki builds are bad just sounds like bias. Wiki builds work and that's why they are on wiki. I would say a lot more builds copied from wiki would work better than builds created by people on their own.

Is there anything wrong with copying a build from wiki? It's not an original build I made so it's automatically bad? I don't mind that you point out that it's copied from wiki, I never claimed these to be my own build. And I see no reason to say I got them from wiki because builds are not "owned" can't be copyrighted.

Using [[Arcane Echo] for [[Spiteful Spirit] means more damage. I don't see how that can be bad. If one Spiteful Spirit is good, how can two be bad? I hope you do realize that you put it on different targets and not the same, right?

Necromas · Mar 05, 2009, 06:05 AM // 06:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by ac1inferno

Using [[Arcane Echo] for [[Spiteful Spirit] means more damage. I don't see how that can be bad. If one Spiteful Spirit is good, how can two be bad? I hope you do realize that you put it on different targets and not the same, right?

[[Arcane Echo] when used with [[Spiteful Spirit] gets criticized because of the high energy costs, spending a whopping 30 energy (and 4 seconds of casting time) to get the second SS out, and these days SS isn't quite the monster it used to be and most don't consider it a worthy skill to use arcane echo on when they could be spending that time and energy on a lot of other skills.

zwei2stein · Mar 05, 2009, 08:57 AM // 08:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by ac1inferno;4520066
Every bar without [[Mark of Pain

or [[Barbs] is automatically labeled as bad by you. Wouldn't you consider that more as a personal preference? The build was designed to facilitate Spiteful Spirit for maximum effect. That's why it has skills that has benefits with combines well with it to make it very powerful and not just random skills that are considered good thrown in. It's true that Mark of Pain and Barbs are good, but I just don't see how it helps with Spiteful Spirit so it's not in the build.

...

Using [Arcane Echo] for [Spiteful Spirit] means more damage. I don't see how that can be bad. If one Spiteful Spirit is good, how can two be bad? I hope you do realize that you put it on different targets and not the same, right?

Barbs and MoP is good because it can be "upgraded" in myriad of (very effective) ways that can originate from other party members. You can spike with them for instant wtfdamage.

SS can be upgraded very little. Echo is ready for every other group. Awaken is just waste, but you can take it as upgrade. That's 3 slots total. SS must trigger at least 6 times before it is worth the energy. Echoed SS must trigger at least 12 times before it is worth the energy. (i am very generous with theese numbers!). Even with HM IAS on monsters, that is quite long. Reckless haste does not help with SS in HM and in NM is another 15 energy that must be repaid in form of increased SS output (assuming two SS get benefit of it, they must last extra 3 strikes each) All that assuming that no monster uses selfheal or gets healed. Ranger enemies are notorious for this with troll unguent which can undo 7 triggers worth of SS.

Effective way to use SS is to cast it on monsters you are going to ignore and attack last. Ideally, softening more important target in process with AOE. Does that really look effective?

OFC, you can use it on balled up enemies and see lots of numbers and SS can pay for itself in secconds, but that means that there are other costs - you are loosing time balling them up and likely have tank which is whole character worth of damage lost. Shame that MOP can deliver same damage nearly instantly with bit of cooperation.

ac1inferno · Mar 05, 2009, 04:58 PM // 16:58

[[Arcane Echo] and [[Spiteful Spirit] do cost a lot of energy, but as a Necromancer, your Soul Reaping should cover that.

A self-heal triggers Spiteful Spirit before the heal occurs so it reduces the effectiveness of a foe spamming heals. While it's true that [[Troll Unguent] is a heal over time, the Ranger continues to attack so therefor, Spiteful Spirit is negating the heal from it. I would also argue that Spiteful Spirit is not slow, but very powerful in hard mode as it benefits from the attack and casting speed bonuses foes have.

[[Reckless Haste] is combined with Spiteful Spirit to deal more damage and cause them to miss. While it's true that in Hard Mode, the monsters already have an increased attack speed and cannot exceed the cap, but the effect of increased miss chance still applies. True that it takes a lot of energy, but again, as a Necromancer, Soul Reaping should cover that.

I would say it can be effective for some, while others would see it differently. It's two completely different play styles. Both are AoE that works for PvE. While Mark of Pain is faster than Spiteful Spirit, there's also the risk of having the area of effect damage from it trigger mobs to flee. They both have their Pro's and Con's so I can't exactly say which is better since I believe it's based on personal preference of play style, that's why I posted both builds.

Calista Blackblood · Mar 05, 2009, 06:09 PM // 18:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by ac1inferno

I just copy the whole thing because it's more likely that people will read the text rather than clicking a link.

While wiki builds are a basic bar and are largely terribly thought out.If all that ever happens is direct copy pastes from there,what is the point of Campfire? Nobody learns anything with copy-pasting builds with horribly worthless variants..

Quote:

Every bar without [[Mark of Pain] or [[Barbs] is automatically labeled as bad by you. Wouldn't you consider that more as a personal preference? The build was designed to facilitate Spiteful Spirit for maximum effect. That's why it has skills that has benefits with combines well with it to make it very powerful and not just random skills that are considered good thrown in. It's true that Mark of Pain and Barbs are good, but I just don't see how it helps with Spiteful Spirit so it's not in the build.

No..Anyone decent that plays necro knows how to maximise mark of pain and barbs with any bar and/or team build..The substantial differences between MoP/Barbs and SS are quite clear and funnily enough,both non elites are far stronger than 1 elite or copies of.Also you cannot maximise the effectiveness of a skill that results in you taking more damage that it may deal..No brainer

Quote:

Because it's always original builds that help people and not universally accepted generic build.

Forum users that play the class day in day out >>>>>>>>>average wiki users and pages that anyone can edit.

Quote:

Saying wiki builds are bad just sounds like bias. Wiki builds work and that's why they are on wiki. I would say a lot more builds copied from wiki would work better than builds created by people on their own.

They work yes,but if you actually sit back and think about how a wiki actually works and how the build itself synergises/functions you would see different.

Quote:

Is there anything wrong with copying a build from wiki? It's not an original build I made so it's automatically bad? I don't mind that you point out that it's copied from wiki, I never claimed these to be my own build. And I see no reason to say I got them from wiki because builds are not "owned" can't be copyrighted.

Yes because that is pretty much all you do.It's easy to copy paste someone elses work (and usually someone that doesn't have a clue) throw it in a post,offer no real information and click submit.Go check the page and refer to my other comments,the bar has been changed to even worse.Anyone can drag AE+SS onto a skill bar and call it theirs..Regardless it is still bad.

Quote:

Using [[Arcane Echo] for [[Spiteful Spirit] means more damage. I don't see how that can be bad. If one Spiteful Spirit is good, how can two be bad? I hope you do realize that you put it on different targets and not the same, right?

[[spiteful spirit] isn't good.SS will only trigger when a mob does something to your party/minions.35 dmg(@15 curses) to them with usually a lot more to you.How do you justify that? More defense? More monks? Adding a second copy may do more damage(wow 70dmg) but it is godly slow and works against your party,damage taken will often be far more than damage dealt(especially in HM).

PvE is about killing fast,if people are serious about it,they realise it..SS does not cut it even when [[arcane echo]'d

Quote:

Originally Posted by "post32

If you don't like the slow pace of waiting for enemies to kill themselves with Spiteful Spirit, you could always run a Mark of Pain Nuker instead.

Quote:

would also argue that Spiteful Spirit is not slow, but very powerful in hard mode as it benefits from the attack and casting speed bonuses foes have.

And you die because of superbuffed attributes dealing more damage to you and more health making killing longer that it should be

VishnuOdin · Mar 05, 2009, 06:33 PM // 18:33

Quite a discussion has formed, nice

Just got the quest for Technobabble and Pain Inverter, and completed the game in normal mode. Now the fun begins! Reckless Haste looks like a really good one to have, that will be one of the first I go for once I receive the trilogy I ordered.

Question about Assassin's Promise, does that only trigger once or does it recharge your skills every time something dies during it's duration? I've never used it so I'm speaking hypothetically but with a 45s recharge doesn't that mean it would only actually trigger once per battle? Or even once ever few battles depending on how quickly your moving? Maybe I'm missing something but that seems like a waste of your only Elite skill.

I like using both MoP and SS together. MoP to spread my tanks damage and SS to filter damage from the sides. I'll never run with a rez, so may not agree with that but with 12 SR and Glyph I can spam all I want and never run out of energy regardless of what's going on.

Is there a way to tell what hexes are currently applied on a mob? I know the ones applied to me show up in the top left corner, and while I try to remember which I've cast on what when there's a lot on screen I loose track sometimes.

@Calista BlackBlood: Can you post your build?

If anyone else would like to post theirs please do. Or PM it to me if you'd prefer to do that. My philosophy on RPG builds has always been;

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ghost in the Shell

"If we all reacted the same way, we'd be predictable, and there's always more than one way to view a situation. What's true for the group is also true for the individual. It's simple: overspecialize, and you breed in weakness. It's slow death."

Redvex · Mar 05, 2009, 07:16 PM // 19:16

So Calista what is the best elite curse?

Calista Blackblood · Mar 05, 2009, 07:17 PM // 19:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by VishnuOdin

Question about Assassin's Promise, does that only trigger once or does it recharge your skills every time something dies during it's duration? I've never used it so I'm speaking hypothetically but with a 45s recharge doesn't that mean it would only actually trigger once per battle? Or even once ever few battles depending on how quickly your moving? Maybe I'm missing something but that seems like a waste of your only Elite skill.

Only when the hexed foe dies,but it also recharges itself.Unless you have too short a duration or cast AP too early you will probably never have to wait 45secs for it to recharge

Quote:

Is there a way to tell what hexes are currently applied on a mob? I know the ones applied to me show up in the top left corner, and while I try to remember which I've cast on what when there's a lot on screen I loose track sometimes.

Nope unfortunately the markers (pink ^ arrows) only show that the foe is hexed and not what the hex is.

[Last slots are optional +fix attributes to taste;OAdAQLQ2kWC7ixk2BAAAAA] Probably the 3 most OP EotN PvE skills (look at the ebon sin's skills)

[iron palm][fox fangs][nine tail strike]

Knockdown-cripple-knockdown-2 unblockable attacks-deep wound-dead and the bar is recharged..You also have AoE weakness.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Weakness

You deal 66% less damage with attacks and your attributes are reduced by 1.

^Although please note.Happened to find that bar saved,I'd obviously change it for different areas.

Heavy blocking -[rigor mortis] and/or [defile defenses] (Can also be used as cover hex)
Caster areas - [techobabble] instead of [finish him]
Enchantment heavy - [rend enchantments] or maybe [rip enchantment]
Hex removals- [parasitic bond] to cover AP

Quote:

Originally Posted by Redvex

So Calista what is the best elite curse?

[weaken knees] is funny when combined with [shameful fear] in PvP.[lingering curse][corrupt enchantment] are fun in PvP but honestly,the best elite for a curses bar for PvE actually comes from secondary..[[assassins promise]

Redvex · Mar 05, 2009, 07:37 PM // 19:37

Assasin promise is effective if you have high rank in norn and avanguard title right?
For Pve
Lingering curse give -3 degeneration and less [email protected] to all foe
Corrupt Enchantment remove 1 enchantment and give degeneration

Degeneration is bad in pve especially in hard mode.
So SS is the best elite.
If only feast of corruption should not have too long recharge time

Calista Blackblood · Mar 05, 2009, 07:59 PM // 19:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Redvex

Assasin promise is effective if you have high rank in norn and avanguard title right?

You don't need high norn or ebon ranks for AP.Hell you don't even really need PvE skills(whilst they are a great bonus)And also considering it is a factions skill..

Quote:

For Pve
Lingering curse give -3 degeneration and less [email protected] to all foe

Pressure skill but still largely useless,good for being annoying in PvP though.

Quote:

Corrupt Enchantment remove 1 enchantment and give degeneration

Largely similar to LC.
^ ^Both the better skills out of a set of pretty useless elites.

Quote:

Degeneration is bad in pve especially in hard mode.
So SS is the best elite.
If only feast of corruption should not have too long recharge time

I did state PvP

Truth is,there is no best elite from the curses line,there is the elite people love and fail to understand(SS).Degen is bad almost anywhere and the damage from SS is barely sufficient in either mode.You should be killing quickly not hexing and taking damage dealt until SS has enough momentum to make itself worthwhile (IE: Until it actually starts killing)

At least with skills like [you move like a dwarf][ebon vanguard assassin support] you can really neuter the most dangerous foe (caster/boss) with kd's and the most dangerous melee with cripple/kd's.Spamming them with [[assassins promise] offers far more than SS ever could

Redvex · Mar 05, 2009, 08:20 PM // 20:20

I mean AP build.
with low rank in avanguard assasin live few seconds

Calista Blackblood · Mar 05, 2009, 08:41 PM // 20:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Redvex

I mean AP build.
with low rank in avanguard assasin live few seconds

If it lives long enough to get off [[iron palm] [[fox fangs] [[nine tail strike] it has done it's job(the beauty of it is chained KD feeding off cripple)I used it before I maxxed vanguard and never really had any problems,used it with max and have seen 3+ in amongst a mob

.Don't forget ebon sins auto attacks trigger MoP/Barbs so it is always helpful.(expendable extra melee hitting your MoP/Barbs targets)

_Nihilist_ · Mar 05, 2009, 10:50 PM // 22:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Calista BlackBlood

...expendable extra melee...

[Ebon Vanguard Assassin Support] is the best Minion Spell in the game. Doesn't need a corpse (or waste your Elite Slot, in the case of AotL), dies at about the same rate of a Bone Minion, but it has skills (KD, unblockable, unblockable), and you don't have to be a Necro to use it...

IMBA? OFC, it's a PvE skill, lol.

For all of you people who are still hung up on SS being uber-1337-instagib-pwnurface-wtfbbqawesomesauce, get a clue. It has its uses, but the damage output of AP+MoP+PvE skills+Soul Reaping e-mgmt outshines it like a nuclear warhead on an ICBM outshines a .22 round chambered in a Derringer as far as destructive capability goes.

Resistance to this point isn't just futile, it's incorrect, it's annoying as hell, and it's getting old.

If, and only if, you are talking about solo or duo farming where damage is instantly healed/regenerated, is SS ever going to be the best elite skill to carry into PvE. Saying your Minion Wall is going to soak the damage doesn't matter, the Minions are going to trigger Barbs/MoP more than SS is going to have a hope of triggering.

Get

It

Through

Your

Thick

Skulls

Now

PLEASE.

/end rant

zwei2stein · Mar 06, 2009, 07:46 AM // 07:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by VishnuOdin

Quite a discussion has formed, nice

Just got the quest for Technobabble and Pain Inverter, and completed the game in normal mode. Now the fun begins! Reckless Haste looks like a really good one to have, that will be one of the first I go for once I receive the trilogy I ordered.

Question about Assassin's Promise, does that only trigger once or does it recharge your skills every time something dies during it's duration? I've never used it so I'm speaking hypothetically but with a 45s recharge doesn't that mean it would only actually trigger once per battle? Or even once ever few battles depending on how quickly your moving? Maybe I'm missing something but that seems like a waste of your only Elite skill.

I like using both MoP and SS together. MoP to spread my tanks damage and SS to filter damage from the sides. I'll never run with a rez, so may not agree with that but with 12 SR and Glyph I can spam all I want and never run out of energy regardless of what's going on.

Is there a way to tell what hexes are currently applied on a mob? I know the ones applied to me show up in the top left corner, and while I try to remember which I've cast on what when there's a lot on screen I loose track sometimes.

@Calista BlackBlood: Can you post your build?

If anyone else would like to post theirs please do. Or PM it to me if you'd prefer to do that. My philosophy on RPG builds has always been;

AP recharges itself and all skills when foe that was hexed with it dies. Which means that you can reapply it on next foe which you are going to kill and next one and next one ... So, if you are diligent about recasting it on each target and can kill them fast enough, it can trigger of each foe you kill. That makes it awesome.

Redvex · Mar 06, 2009, 08:30 AM // 08:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Calista BlackBlood

If it lives long enough to get off [[iron palm] [[fox fangs] [[nine tail strike] it has done it's job(the beauty of it is chained KD feeding off cripple)I used it before I maxxed vanguard and never really had any problems,used it with max and have seen 3+ in amongst a mob

.Don't forget ebon sins auto attacks trigger MoP/Barbs so it is always helpful.(expendable extra melee hitting your MoP/Barbs targets)

Ok gonna make a try.
What do you think about discord team?

VishnuOdin · Mar 06, 2009, 02:22 PM // 14:22

@Calista: Thanks! Makes sense, looks like that will be the first Elite skill I go for when I get Factions. Until then I'll stick with SS as my Elite.

@Tyrael: Even in HM? I just started playing it last night, but with the increased attack speed and the Factions (I think) skill that increases attack speed an additional 50% and chance to miss wouldn't that by itself pour out damage? Even without it SS created a fireworks show.

I'm by no means as veteran of a player as most of the people in this thread, but isn't MoP nuking very dependent on your team? Throw a bunch of casters in and I can't see it out performing an SS build. I've tried both (not quite full MoP since I don't have AP), but when you get SS placement right it seems just as fast as MoP nuking. Of course your not going to drop single targets as fast, but when you look at the total time to drop the group it doesn't feel any longer. I think a lot of this has to do with play style and skill placement, some people are better at MoP nuking and others SS nuking. You can't argue with results, if it gets the job done do it whatever way you want to. There are far too many variables outside of a build to say X is always the best.

One thing I can say for sure is attacking others and using all sorts of fancy formatting isn't going to convince anyone your right. It just makes you look ignorant. If everyone ran one build the game would never advance. It's only by trying new things that you learn new tricks, especially in a system as complex as an RPG.

I love how you can save and load builds, so I'm going to keep both sets depending on who I group with. Thanks again!

Calista Blackblood · Mar 06, 2009, 02:54 PM // 14:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Redvex

Ok gonna make a try.
What do you think about discord team?

Devastating and far superior to sabway.I didn't really use it that much but enough to see the difference...Try it

ac1inferno · Mar 07, 2009, 03:20 AM // 03:20

@Calista BlackBlood

I would say posting a build from Wiki does help because it gives a basic idea of a build. It does not have to be followed rigidly and can be instead used as an outline or guide line to be modded as seen fit.

While it's true that anyone can edit Wiki, a general consensus also has to be met for it to stay that way. Vandalism are usually reverted back right away.

And [[Spiteful Spirit] is not bad. Like I said before, it's just different play style. It's for organized groups where people are smart enough to not target the foe hexed with it. That way, it softens up the rest of the group.

But heroes do not do that. They automatically pummel the same target you have, so that's why Spiteful Spirit is not working to it's maximum effect. [[Barbs] and [[Mark of Pain] is good for the focus fire of heroes, but that does not mean Spiteful Spirit is bad.

_Nihilist_ · Mar 07, 2009, 04:54 AM // 04:54

VishnuOdin, most casters carry a high-health (+60hp) set, which is easy to set up as a Spear/Shield combo. As long as the Spear has a physical damage type (anything but an Ebon/Fiery/Icy/Shocking spearhead), it will trigger MoP and Barbs. Weapon-swapping comes in handy. Even a full-caster team can output more damage with MoP than SS. On top of that, if you are running an all-caster team and don't have a MM or Bomber along, you are going to have a tough time of it, so you'll still have some physical damage heading their way from the Minions.

ac1inferno, learn to [CTRL]+[SHIFT]+[SPACE] / Call Target on a mob and then [TAB] > Cast SS on something else closeby. It's not that hard, I promise. Turn off Team Chat interface if all the Calling gets annoying rolling over your chat i-face.

Heroes or no Heroes, problem solved, your SS should go off without a hitch, weakening the adjacent mobs as intended. As soon as the mob you called drops, Call Target on another mob to get the Heroes a new target, and your SS-hexed foe stays alive to spread more damage and not waste the hex.