Curse

Voodoo Rage · Mar 02, 2009, 09:37 PM // 21:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Redvex

Wow 5 second dazed in pve?

Well, I'm running an assassin's promise bar, so the mob is almost perpetually dazed and shut down at least near whoever I last targeted. That skill almost always makes the cut for me.

Redvex · Mar 02, 2009, 09:39 PM // 21:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

[Necrosis] is purely a filler skill, it deals nice reliable damage, nothing more.
[Mindbender] isn't godly and nothing to get worked up about - The necromancer has few skills that take an age to cast and a 40/40 set makes up for it.
[Pain Inverter] is very useful against powerful bosses though. Worth getting, but not always bringing, because it has a short duration and irritatingly long recharge.

However, a necromancer should have [Ebon Vanguard Assassin Support] available to them to run alongside [Mark of Pain]. That doesn't mean they should always bring it though.

Wrong
The target of ebon vanguard die quickly so you waste mark of pain that have long recharge.
To use this tecnique you need the elite Assasin Promise that recharge skills when the targer foe die. Otherwise it takes ages to recharge
I Prefer barbs that is more spammable

SS 2 secs cast
Desacrate 2 sec
Insidious Parasite 2 sec
Barbs 2 secs
....enough 4 use mindbender

Quote:

Originally Posted by Voodoo Rage

Well, I'm running an assassin's promise bar, so the mob is almost perpetually dazed and shut down at least near whoever I last targeted. That skill almost always makes the cut for me.

Yes but in this way any classes with a decent energy management and good norn and ebon rank can make it.
So where is the fun playing as necromancer?

Calista Blackblood · Mar 02, 2009, 09:54 PM // 21:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Redvex

Wrong
The target of ebon vanguard die quickly so you waste mark of pain that have long recharge.
To use this tecnique you need the elite Assasin Promise. Otherwise it takes ages to recharge
I Prefer barbs that is more spammable

SS 2 secs cast
Desacrate 2 sec
Insidious Parasite 2 sec
Barbs 2 secs
....enough 4 use mindbender

Desecrate/Defile are largely pointless..60 odd damage can easily come from elsewhere/another skill..Save bar slots for something good.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cataphract

I've never had any problems with Echo+SS

15+15+15=45 energy used on reactive hexing damage output.

While you are waiting for foes to attack/use skills to deal damage,what kind of damage are you taking from them? PvE is about fast killing and SS does not cut it unless in certain farm builds.

35 damage @15 curses assuming the foe didn't kite or agro broke..Damage you may get especially in HM

You kill slower allowing your team to take far more damage..Efficiency is key

Reactive hexing sucks!(even more when you have multiple copies of it)

Largely applicable.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyrael_Eveningsong

What Tyla is saying, which happens to be falling on deaf ears, is that from a PvE standpoint skills like Backfire, Empathy, VoR, and SS are not optimal. Tyla has explained the reasoning behind this, which, again, has fallen on deaf ears.

I'm going to try to explain it again (and Tyla, if I make any complete bassackwards assumptions, feel free to correct my misunderstandings), maybe if I can say the same general thing in different words, it might get through.

Start by taking a look at what Tyla said in Post #24:

Backfire, Empathy, VoR, and SS all deal damage based on the hexed foe doing something. 'Kay?

If the hexed foe is doing something then you and your party members are suffering the consequences, whether it is getting attacked, hexed, nuked, whatever.

The point is that rather than using skills that require the enemy to beat the living hell out of you in order for them to trigger their damage, why aren't you using a proactive/aggressive stance and dealing damage and killing those enemies BEFORE they have a chance to get those nasty attacks and spells off?

Spells like these shine in PvP because they force the enemy to make a choice. As a human player, the choice ISN'T ALWAYS attack and cast through whatever hexes are stacked on you. But the AI will ALWAYS attack/cast through whatever nastiness you stick on them. ALWAYS. Whereas in a PvP setting, the player might choose to wait for hex removal if he/she is too far out from their backline. Forcing a skill to be used or not be used is infinitely more practical and useful in PvP. In PvE, all the skills designed to force the choice between "do it and the hex owns your face" vs. "don't do it and save your face" are neutered, and thus outclassed by direct brute force (direct spell damage or physicals knocking teeth out, take your pick). They are a control mechanism, and that control is why they are so powerful.

In PvE, sure, these skills do damage, but only if the hexed foe carries out the trigger action. In order for the damage to occur, they must CAUSE damage to your allies. There is no control aspect whatsoever. Therefore, the power of those skills is worthless. Sure, you get the damage, but rather than stopping the enemy from causing damage, controlling the situation (as Wandering Eye

EotN Wandering Eye

* 10
* 2
* 10

Hex Spell. For 4 seconds, the next time target foe attacks, that attack is interrupted and all nearby foes take 10..76..97 damage. (Attrib: Illusion Magic)

and Clumsiness

Core Clumsiness

* 10
* 2
* 10

Hex Spell. For 4 seconds, target and adjacent foes are hexed with Clumsiness. The next time each foe attacks, the attack is interrupted and that foe suffers 10..76..97 damage. (Attrib: Illusion Magic)

would do) you still suffer from the attacks/spell effects of the enemy.

If you use other classes, or other skills, you are still better off than using a Mesmer in PvE because they are about control, not the damage that results from the skills themselves (only ~25% of the real power involved in this case, tbh).

Yeah, long explanation. Maybe that helped clarify?

If not, feel free to rip me a new one.

Hatchet Child · Mar 03, 2009, 04:25 AM // 04:25

Seeing as the Op Does not have factions and Cannot get [[Assassin's promise] wouldn't it be more Viable to run [[air of superiority] for the time being??

cataphract · Mar 03, 2009, 09:11 AM // 09:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Calista BlackBlood

15+15+15=45 energy used on reactive hexing damage output.

While you are waiting for foes to attack/use skills to deal damage,what kind of damage are you taking from them? PvE is about fast killing and SS does not cut it unless in certain farm builds.

Energy is never an issue and there is no waiting in HM for mobs to attack. At least from my experience. Usually they're all over you while you're still casting your first hex. As for the damage you're taking - you're not. The minions are. I've completed over a hundred Morostav Trail vanquishes as SS necro and didn't notice any faster times when running AP or MM.

Echo, SS, Reckless, tab, SS, tab, Barbs, tab, SS, tab, SS, ... Very often you'll get off that fifth SS when recharge kicks in. Works great when fighting mobs of 10+. Which is very often because I aggro at least two groups.

Bolding statements and putting exclamation marks won't make it true. Especially if I've seen different with my own eyes.

Tyla's post has merit but fails to see that utilising your foe's actions against him and his group can yield great results. And that's even after she nails the point stating that reactive hexes force the opponent to make a choice. AI does not have a choice since it's programmed to mindlessly attack your party. Use that against them = gg.

Take those Wardens in MT for example. There will be several hammer warriors beating on your minion wall. Slap SS on the left one, Reckless on the middle one and SS again on the right one. Move on to that annoying ranger or ritualist Warden. Works great even with those Dragon Moss eles. Once they fire off their Shatterstone+Arc Lightning combo, they will start auto-attacking. Since they're always standing close to one another, SS them both and divert your attention to those Kirins or go aggro some Dredges. Stuff dies awully fast.

zwei2stein · Mar 03, 2009, 10:40 AM // 10:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by cataphract

Tyla's post has merit but fails to see that utilising your foe's actions against him and his group can yield great results. And that's even after she nails the point stating that reactive hexes force the opponent to make a choice. AI does not have a choice since it's programmed to mindlessly attack your party. Use that against them = gg.

Tyla, a she? How do you know?

Anyhow, Argument is that reactive hexes mean that you have to let them act and deal with consequences of their actions (that includes handling damage and handling the fact that they can fire heals/use selfheals/do variety of stuff to mess you up.). That is kinda slower and definitelly more dangerous than just spiking them 1 by 1.

But, go ahead, load fraps, make vid and show us how fast you kill chit (from first yellow number to last yellow number.). Calista BlackBlood or someone else could then make vid in same area and against same groups. We'll see.

cataphract · Mar 03, 2009, 11:51 AM // 11:51

I don't frequent forums in order to obtain favor and approval. I am simply sharing my experience with the audience.
Can't be too hard to grasp that concept, can it?

Getting 36 minutes for MT vanq regardless of what build I use is good enough evidence for me.

zwei2stein · Mar 03, 2009, 12:09 PM // 12:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by cataphract

I don't frequent forums in order to obtain favor and approval. I am simply sharing my experience with the audience.
Can't be too hard to grasp that concept, can it?

Getting 36 minutes for MT vanq regardless of what build I use is good enough evidence for me.

Part of going to profession forums is not only sharing your experience, but also learning from experiences of others. And reaching consensus / finding out on what works best.

And if goal is to share your experience, you owe it to others to make vids to see how whatever you do is done, if your description is not enough, no?

Moloch Vein · Mar 03, 2009, 12:12 PM // 12:12

Well, on the other hand, there's no need to make videos of a PvE necromancer running around casting SS and Reckless Haste, we already know what that looks like.

cataphract · Mar 03, 2009, 12:30 PM // 12:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by zwei2stein

Part of going to profession forums is not only sharing your experience, but also learning from experiences of others. And reaching consensus / finding out on what works best.

Also pointing out that things aren't as black-and-white as some people would have you believe.

The consesus here is that spiking > multiple SS. Absolutely and in every case. My experience has shown that this is not the case as its described to be. As I have stated in a previous post, I've ran different builds in MT vanq and ended up finishing in the same time frame. That alone should be indicative enough. If you're not looking through "The Prism Of Me > You", that is. Since that's impossible to achieve here on GWG, I'm going to frenchway out of this discussion.

Quote:

Originally Posted by zwei2stein

And if goal is to share your experience, you owe it to others to make vids to see how whatever you do is done, if your description is not enough, no?

You're reaching. In hopes of finding someone desparate enough to stoop down to your level. Sorry, but you'll have someone from "OMG, look at how leet I am" guild. Shouldn't be too hard, there's plenty of them in our alliance.

/wave

Moloch Vein · Mar 03, 2009, 01:47 PM // 13:47

If one cannot notice any difference in performance between two builds it would stand to reason that both are either so poorly put together or so poorly played as to not make a discernible contribution to the success of the team.

In all likelihood, of course, this isn't true.

The reason that most advanced players prefer, for example, the AP/MoP to the SS is that the AP hex engine scales with your own team's output, which is improvable, instead of with the environment's, which is static.

ac1inferno · Mar 03, 2009, 02:41 PM // 14:41

I would say that [[Awaken the Blood] isn't really necessary. It can help, but it's not really needed. It helps when you're spamming a lot of skills, but even then it's not worth a skill slot just for higher attributes. There's a lot of other skills you can bring that can do a whole lot more.

For a SS Nuker build, I suggest:

[build prof=Necromancer/Mesmer Curses=12+1+3 Soul=12+1][Spiteful Spirit][Arcane Echo][Enfeebling Blood][Necrosis][Reckless Haste][Signet of Lost Souls][Optional][Sunspear Rebirth Signet][/build]
- [[Desecrate Enchantments]/[[Defile Enchantments] for additional AoE damage.
- [[Cry of Pain] with a mesmer hex for strong damage and interrupts.
- [[Signet of Corruption] for more energy management.
- [[Pain Inverter] for more single-target damage.
- [[Parasitic Bond] should you need a cover hex or healing.
- In areas with many enemies and corpses, consider taking [[Signet of Sorrow] for fast and energy-free damage.
- [[Suffering] for additional degeneration.
- [[Blood Ritual] to help your party with energy.
- [[Price of Failure] for additional damage with Reckless Haste.
- [[Strip Enchantment] or [[Revealed Enchantment] for control of strong enchanted foes.
- [[Foul Feast] and [[Plague Sending] for condition control.
- Move Blood Magic to Inspiration Magic and use [[Auspicious Incantation] in replacement of BR on the echoed version of SS for better energy management for yourself.
- A different resurrection skill like [[Sunspear Rebirth Signet] can replace [[Resurrection Signet].
- Should your secondary profession be swapped, consider taking a hard res like [[Rebirth] or [[Death Pact Signet (PvE)].

If you don't like the slow pace of waiting for enemies to kill themselves with [[Spiteful Spirit], you could always run a Mark of Pain Nuker instead.

[build prof=necro/assa curses=12+1+1 soulre=10+1 deadly=8][mark of pain][barbs][rigor mortis][optional][assassin's promise][ebon vanguard assassin support]["Finish Him!"][optional][/build]
- The first optional skill is normally an AoE hex or disabling skill; the second is a utility skill.
- [[Enfeebling Blood (PvE)] and [[Weaken Armor] are good choices for a disabling first skill.
- [[Reckless Haste]] and [[Shadow of Fear] are good anti-physical AoE hexes. Shadow of Fear is ideal as a fish hex due to its long duration and fast recharge, and Reckless Haste is especially useful in Hard Mode in order to make important attack skills miss. If you face heavy hex removal, you need an AoE hex.
- [[Mark of Fury] is good in this build since it relies on consistent focused fire, and will help charge a [[Stunning Strike], for example, much faster. It can be brought with spare Blood Magic investment.
- [[Mark of Death] can help score even faster kills and might even replace Barbs if your team is good enough.
- [[Mindbender] is the normal second skill to speed up casting your chains.
- [[Technobabble] includes a short-term AoE daze against enemy spellcasters.
- If your team is unable to shut down the enemy, bring [[Pain Inverter]. Pain Inverter -> EVAS -> AP -> "Finish Him!" can chain kill several high-damage targets in short time under these circumstances. This, however, is a non-ideal, reactive approach.
- If you need enchantment removal, [[Rend Enchantments] is easiest. To fight enemies enchanted with [[Shadow Form (PvE)] or the likes, bring [[Expunge Enchantments]. This is a touch-range skill and should be used with caution as follows:
-- Select a target not protected against your spells.
-- Call the target and run your chain.
-- While your allies kill the called target, run to the problem enemy and remove his enchantments. In a tough area you do not do this unless you are under Spirit Bond, Protective Spirit or the likes.
-- As the first target dies, your spells are recharged to run on the second target.
- If none of the above options feel attractive, bring [[Sunspear Rebirth Signet].

Hugh Manatee · Mar 03, 2009, 03:59 PM // 15:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by cataphract

As for the damage you're taking - you're not. The minions are.

^this. Out of all the ways to make yourself invincible in PvE by way of SY!, paragons, N/Rts with bottomless energy, exploding and self perpetuating minion chaff, pet walls, bonds, prots, heals, wards, debuffing hexes and conditions, knocklocks, consumables ect, I am quite content to let the AI blow itself to hell in an orgy of it's own stupidity with minimal effort on my own part. Not exploiting these classic AI abusing tactics alongside with the new pro active approaches just seems foolish.

Xenomortis · Mar 03, 2009, 05:36 PM // 17:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by ac1inferno

For a SS Nuker build, I suggest:

[build prof=Necromancer/Mesmer Curses=12+1+3 Soul=12+1][Spiteful Spirit][Arcane Echo][Enfeebling Blood][Necrosis][Reckless Haste][Signet of Lost Souls][Optional][Sunspear Rebirth Signet][/build]

I don't recommend Arcane Echo unless you're doing something like the Deep or Urgoz. Get rid of that, change your secondary and take a hard res if you want. That'll give you two free slots, one of which should be filled with Mark of Pain. Barbs is a nice skill to have if your adventuring with physicals.

Calista Blackblood · Mar 03, 2009, 05:44 PM // 17:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by ac1inferno

-snip-

Terrible bars and even worse variant skill lists....

Xenomortis · Mar 03, 2009, 05:50 PM // 17:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Redvex

Wrong
The target of ebon vanguard die quickly so you waste mark of pain that have long recharge.
To use this tecnique you need the elite Assasin Promise that recharge skills when the targer foe die. Otherwise it takes ages to recharge
I Prefer barbs that is more spammable

SS 2 secs cast
Desacrate 2 sec
Insidious Parasite 2 sec
Barbs 2 secs
....enough 4 use mindbender

I only said they should have it available to them as an option - not that they should equip it. Sin Support can kill a target in good time, but when combined with MoP, will also really hurt a mob, even if it is only once every 30 seconds. I still do not consider the three skills you listed to be essential to a PvE necro. Sure they're nice, but they're not amazing enough for me to bother trying to squeeze them onto my bar if I havn't initially got room.

ac1inferno · Mar 04, 2009, 03:41 AM // 03:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Calista BlackBlood

Terrible bars and even worse variant skill lists....

Seems like you say that about every build I post lol. It works for me and I see no problems with it. Mind saying what problems you see with it instead of just saying it's terrible?

zwei2stein · Mar 04, 2009, 07:15 AM // 07:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by cataphract

...

/wave

Concesus changes, best build changes. Long, Long time ago, the only "proper" way to play necro was MM with heal area and veratas. Before that it was some silly blood damage..

I shall take that lil chastisement of yours as sign that you think that it was personal troll against you. You are mistaken. (I still want your build. Seriously.)

Moloch Vein · Mar 04, 2009, 08:30 AM // 08:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by ac1inferno

-snip-

Inferno, please link to PvX instead of copy/pasting walls of text, alright? A small quote is one thing; entire build references is quite another.

pingu666 · Mar 04, 2009, 08:42 AM // 08:42

not sure its been mentioned, but the better/faster your team is, the worse skills like SS become, because they end up not triggering much, corpses arent that active