Curse

draxynnic · Apr 02, 2009, 04:36 AM // 04:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by FoxBat

The only reason people have to make a choice is that just attacking/casting is going to kill them in seconds. That's exactly what happens to HM mobs, they throw a few things at you and then promptly die.

Reactive hexes do not perform a shutdown effect in PvE it's true. (except clum/wandering which actually do interrupt) But they are still raw damage and they play that role quite well. Enemies can attack or lob spells all they want at you if you have the proper protections - popular defenses include SY, minion wall, prot spam, or bsurge/ward/aegis, none of which actually stop the enemy from attacking.

Yeah, I'm going to join in in disagreeing with Tyrael's reasoning.

In absence of other factors, reactive hexes are actually better in PvE than in PvP. The reason is because players can judge the risks - they can decide whether it's better to hold back or just attack through the punishment. Monsters, however, with the exception of some tweaks like the AI being programmed not to kill itself with one last spell while Backfired, will just blindly attack. So you can put reactive hexes on something which, for whatever reason, you don't mind (or can't otherwise stop) them doing what's being punished, and use other shutdown means such as conditions and interrupts when you do want to shut them down. Or, as has already been pointed out, combine measures - almost any player will stop attacking with Empathy, SS and Blind stacked on them, while a monster won't. Blind a melee opponent and hit them with Empathy, and you can ignore them until it's time to renew the effects, and in the meantime they'll be killing themselves while you can concentrate on something else.

In terms of casting time and energy cost, reactive hexes on the right targets are among the most efficient, if not THE most efficient, means of dealing damage to AI enemies. The price is that they are conditional and take time to work - and in the current PvE environment, it's the second that hurts them. There are plenty of ways in which it's perfectly possible for pretty much any non-boss monster to be dead in seconds after a human player lines them up, and in this environment SS-style hexes just don't have time to do their thing. This is especially true when the support of such builds is usually built around keeping the rest of the mob off your back for the handful of seconds required to kill the most problematic enemies - a situation where you are looking to disrupt rather than pressure. (They'll die soon enough when it's their turn, the important thing is to make sure they don't hurt you in the meantime.)

So, in short... there are reasons why reactive hexes are less-than-optimal in PvE, but Tyrael's explanation was almost completely off the mark.

Now, admittedly, I do use some on heroes in PvE... but in those cases they're usually being used as feeder and cover hexes at least as much as they are for the actual effect.

FoxBat · Apr 02, 2009, 05:20 AM // 05:20

I'm not sure of the answer, but comparing how fast you can kill a single foe isn't a fair evaluation of SS. The skill shines far more for AoE damage, and moreso when the SS'd target isn't one you are focus-firing on, so more adjacent damage can be dealt. Furthermore, multiple copies of SS do work together. In the not-always-likely scenario of getting 4 foes nice and balled up, they're going to be dealing 140 per attack/skill, and when tallied up over 4 foes that's 600 DPS, then tack on more if even more are balled up. Yes Mark of Pain could nuke things really fast, but it has limitations if you are relying on minions to do the trigger, plus the AoE range isn't nearly as wide, and there's no reason you can't have both on the bar anyway. Let's also keep in mind that this damage is put out while the heroes are free to do other things like summon minions, set up novas, or throw barbs around that can lead to more damage down the road.

In many vanq scenarios, typical player is only going to fight one or maybe two groups of spread balanced foes at a time and not do too much aggro management, making Discord the best choice for fast focused single target damage. It isn't what I would think of for mowing down the hordes in Urgoz though, and it isn't necessarily as crazy good with un-balanced groups such as wallows, griffons, and beetle masses who ball up and present no priority targets. Not sure what that means for MT but I do recall a ridiculous number of wardens in one area that call for some strong AoE to take out.

I also want to add that it's really easy to "screw up" a discord team. It's significantly less awesome when the AI decides it has more important things to do like spam nova/barbs if you give them those kind of skills, or even load them up with excessive cover hexes or monk prots. So results with the build can vary wildly.

draxynnic · Apr 02, 2009, 05:35 AM // 05:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by FoxBat

Yes Mark of Pain could nuke things really fast, but it has limitations if you are relying on minions to do the trigger, plus the AoE range isn't nearly as wide, and there's no reason you can't have both on the bar anyway.

The AOE range of Spiteful Spirit and Mark of Pain is the same - adjacent.

As for there being no reason you can't have both on your bar - while this is technically true, the long recharge of Mark of Pain means that it can be made significantly more powerful by using something like Assassin's Promise to speed up its recharge.

This isn't saying that multi-SS can't do lots of damage. It can. It's just often outshined by other skills. (And I'd be tempted to say that the unbalanced mobs you mention are typically not the ones you're actually struggling to get through in a vanquish, so it's better to optimise for the balanced mobs.)

faraaz · Apr 02, 2009, 06:20 AM // 06:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by draxynnic

The AOE range of Spiteful Spirit and Mark of Pain is the same - adjacent.

You forget that SS only triggers on enemy's doing something. MoP triggers on everything that touches the enemy with physical damage. This includes casters with spears, minions...everything.

As you can see...MoP will trigger a LOT more than SS.

Trust me, if you use it intelligently, MoP >>>>>> SS.

cataphract · Apr 02, 2009, 07:36 AM // 07:36

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