Curse

Ratson Itamar · Apr 28, 2009, 02:31 PM // 14:31

I've been running Survivor Insignias on my main armor suit for quite some time now. After reading at Rawr's website which type of insignias they've equipped got me thinking and also doubting my choice. Thus, I started pondering which insignias would suit a necro for general play the most, but with PvP as the top priority. Oh, btw, they've +AL on their armors.

The best Necro-only insignia that seemed to have any use is the Tormentor's one. +10 AL against all sources of damage, the only downside is that you take more from Holy Damage (up to +16 if you have it equipped on all of the armor pieces). Most if not all of the dangerous Holy Damage is armor ignoring so I'm not sure how it works with these type of skills, I will have it tested in the near future (I'm having issues with GW right now). I think that it's the best option in the vast majority of PvE areas but not so much in PvP, as it seems that holy damage is starting to takeoff while Anet is doing nothing about it. Yay for more storage in exchange for some good skill balance update -_-.

Other good insignia was a common one, the Stalwart. +10 AL vs physical damage. The upside is that there's no downside.

The purpose of this thread is to see which insignias experienced players are using, for which area and for what reason. That will hopefully lead to a brainstorm and thus improve our necros survival rate and effectiveness in combat.

Longasc · Apr 28, 2009, 02:49 PM // 14:49

Interesting question.

Not speaking from a PvP point of view, but Hard Mode mobs often cause so much damage that people argued armor is superfluous, but Prot Spirit not.

So people often prefer the +energy radiant insignia for the higher energy ceiling for soul reaping.

I personally followed the crowd and got survivor insignia. I initially had Tormentor's for a long time as favorite. The benefit was not that I got some more HP, but that mobs were going for my heroes and henchmen who had less hp.

Basically, the same as with Dire and Hearty pets. Hearty pets are better "tanks" as they have more HP, but the AI still seems to have a bias towards low HP targets. Not as strong as it once was, but still.

For Olias I used MM insignia and a staff with +AL, no +HP. To reduce life sacrifice and so on, as usual.

For Necros it is indeed a bit more difficult to decide - on my Warrior, I have multiple sets and shields for the encounter ahead.

It is interesting to see that RAWR favors +armor for PvP. I am almost tempted to search for some +health uber alles threads.

Ratson Itamar · Apr 28, 2009, 02:58 PM // 14:58

Wow, you seem to have done the exact, down to every little detail, same actions as me and even the reasons behind them are the same. I'm pretty sure that the monster's AI considers the armor of the target when choosing it's target, if they also calculate their insignias or not is not known to me. So if they actually do take the insignias into consideration then +AL will have the same effect as +HP.

The problem in PvP, unlike PvE, is that I can't change armor sets in mid combat. That's why deciding on the best insignia is a lot tougher.

Xenomortis · Apr 28, 2009, 03:02 PM // 15:02

I tend to use survivors. I don't desperatly need the energy gained from Radiants.
The extra armour insignias are... well they're sort of comparable to the Survivors bonus, except Survivors will help you survive against all types of damage, whereas extra armour won't.

The only time I wouldn't favour Survivors, is if I'm using a high sac build (which is basically never). Then, I'd probably go with Radiant because if I have a low maximum HP, extra armour won't save me.

Ratson Itamar · Apr 28, 2009, 03:37 PM // 15:37

40 health against 10 armor against everything the game throws at your face. A +10 AL will reduce damage taken by 8.25%. I've quickly crunched some numbers and the +10 AL vs the +40 HP is only worth it when you take about 485 damage, any more damage will only make the +10AL even a better choice. That is only if you're under the risk of dying, against less pressure, every bit of armor is better than more health because you will take less damage, and thus releasing some pressure off of your monks.

wind fire and ice · Apr 28, 2009, 04:04 PM // 16:04

For most forms of play Survivors is the best,because it also protects you against degen and armor ignoring damage.
For PvE if your in an area with no armor ignoring damage/heavy degen go with a Tormenters set,but for PvP use Survivors.

ac1inferno · Apr 28, 2009, 04:12 PM // 16:12

I would say the best for in general is Survivors since you don't really have any insignias that can guarantee an armor bonus unlike Warriors with their Sentinel's or Dreadnought and you don't really need the extra energy cap from Radiants when Soul Reaping should be giving you near infinite.

House Silvermoon · Apr 28, 2009, 05:00 PM // 17:00

for pve i have my necro heroes running something like this

curses hero - tormented (holy damage is rare in pve)
mm hero - mm armor (always has minions so always has +15)
nrt hero - heralds (always holding a pot so always +10 there)

for pvp necros best insig is prolly survivor cause as mentioned before they dont have the best +armor insigs like other classes.

TheodenKing · Apr 28, 2009, 06:08 PM // 18:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ratson Itamar

The best Necro-only insignia that seemed to have any use is the Tormentor's one. +10 AL against all sources of damage, the only downside is that you take more from Holy Damage (up to +16 if you have it equipped on all of the armor pieces).

I believe you are mistaken about how Tormentor's works. In combat, whenever you are hit, there is a % chance that the hit will be on a particular part of your armorment. Therefore, you don't add up the penalties of all your Tormentor pieces. For example... you get hit, and 10% chance it strikes you on the feet. So on this occasion, it strikes your feet, and being Holy Damage, you take the extra damage. Then you get struck again, only this time it hits your head. But you were wearing Survivor on your head, and thus you took no extra Holy Damage.

Hopefully someone else can explain this better than I did. My point is, you don't add up the penalties. Each penalty is on the piece that gets hit.

alluring athena · Apr 28, 2009, 06:33 PM // 18:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheodenKing

I believe you are mistaken about how Tormentor's works. In combat, whenever you are hit, there is a % chance that the hit will be on a particular part of your armorment. Therefore, you don't add up the penalties of all your Tormentor pieces. For example... you get hit, and 10% chance it strikes you on the feet. So on this occasion, it strikes your feet, and being Holy Damage, you take the extra damage. Then you get struck again, only this time it hits your head. But you were wearing Survivor on your head, and thus you took no extra Holy Damage.

Hopefully someone else can explain this better than I did. My point is, you don't add up the penalties. Each penalty is on the piece that gets hit.

I believe this is accurate and a common misconception that you can simply add (or subtract) the armor bonuses (or penalties) and it applies all the time every time. The bonus only applies if an enemy hits the particular piece of armor the insignia is attached to.

Ratson Itamar · Apr 28, 2009, 06:43 PM // 18:43

Oh, you're absolutely right TheodenKing, I can't believe I forgot about it. That makes the Tormentor's insignia much more attractive. Still need to check if the extra damage is being added with the armor ignoring damage, I presume not, but you can never know.

It seems that almost everyone prefers survivor's over +AL. It's a common knowledge that the melee classes best damage source is auto-attacking (except from assassins ofc), that's why I think that +AL is better than +HP in the long run. Armor ignoring damage is much less threatening when the base damage is very low.

When I went out with my monk, I took every bit of +AL I could, even if I had to give up on +HP. From my tests against master of damage and guildmates I deduced that the bonus armor is by far my best friend, they did so little damage compared to what I'm used to when I go with survivor's that I could easily take damage from more sources than I could have in the past. To be completely honest, my monk also had 11 more AL than my necro would.

Let's see how much AL I can have on my necro:
Armor suit : 60 base + 10 insignia = 70.
Shield : 8 base + 10 vs damage type.
Spear : + 7 vs damage type.
Overall : 70+18+7 = 95 AL.
I rather have 95 AL with 560 HP than 85 with 600. Don't you? Seeing a warrior attacking you a couple of times, then stops and change targets because he noticed that he had done only 9-20 damage on a caster with each attack.

Besides melee classes, how popular are damage ignoring skills? (not a rhetorical question btw

).

Voodoo Rage · Apr 28, 2009, 07:25 PM // 19:25

In a similar vein of logic. I've often considered that bringing a focus gives me 12 energy + 20/20 casting/recharge. If ran all radiants and attunement instead of survivor and vitae, that would give me back my 12 energy at the expense of 60 health (allowing the shield).

So should necros be running around with shields?

sph0nz · Apr 28, 2009, 07:58 PM // 19:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Voodoo Rage

In a similar vein of logic. I've often considered that bringing a focus gives me 12 energy + 20/20 casting/recharge. If ran all radiants and attunement instead of survivor and vitae, that would give me back my 12 energy at the expense of 60 health (allowing the shield).

So should necros be running around with shields?

Why not? The additional armor won't hurt any, and necros have soul reaping, which should be all the energy management you'll need (aside from perhaps signet of lost souls/glyph of lesser energy). However, since many necro spells often have long cast times/recharge times, the 20/20 mod is very useful.

This is what weapon sets are for.

Ratson Itamar · Apr 29, 2009, 07:43 AM // 07:43

I've done a little research and retesting. What I found out is that having 95AL over 85AL means that you will take 10.3% less damage, from any source.

according to wiki, the percentage that each armor piece has to get hit is: chest: 37.5%, legs 25%, rest is 12.5% each.

0.375 (chance to get his) * 6 (extra dmg taken) = 2.25 average dmg taken with every hit.
0.25 * 4 = 1 avg dmg.
0.125 * 2 = 0.25 * 3 (there're three identical armor pieces) = 0.75 avg dmg.

That's +4 average damage with every holy damage. Now the question is, Is it worth it? I believe so. In case holy damage is present, most of the spells in that line have a slow recharge or have a high cost or both. The most dangerous skills are Judge's Insight and Heart of Holy Flame.

Also, I went to Master of damage again and it seemed I was wrong, the damage range is not 9-20 but 5-20, and it seems that the lower numbers pop up more frequently. Might just be dumb luck.

Edit: I forgot to compare here the difference in the damage that is being taken with 60AL vs. 70AL, just in case you're in your 40/40 set when you get hit. You'll take 31.8% less damage. Thought it worthed mentioning.

It has just hit me, even if you take holy damage, the extra armor should compensate for the average +4 damage that you would take. I believe that armor ignoring damage won't trigger the +damage taken from tormentor's because it will just ignore your armor, hence the name armor ignoring. So there won't be a scenario where you lose more damage than you would've if you were to take another type of insignia.

Xenomortis · Apr 29, 2009, 04:46 PM // 16:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ratson Itamar

It has just hit me, even if you take holy damage, the extra armor should compensate for the average +4 damage that you would take. I believe that armor ignoring damage won't trigger the +damage taken from tormentor's because it will just ignore your armor, hence the name armor ignoring. So there won't be a scenario where you lose more damage than you would've if you were to take another type of insignia.

Holy damage is armour ignoring.
Armour ignoring damage generally does the stated amount of damage, armour is ignored.
Holy damage will do more damage against someone wearing tormentors than it will against someone with survivors.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ratson Itamar

I forgot to compare here the difference in the damage that is being taken with 60AL vs. 70AL, just in case you're in your 40/40 set when you get hit. You'll take 31.8% less damage. Thought it worthed mentioning.

31.8% seems a bit high... let's have a look.

An attack deals 100 damage normally. At 60 AL, I will recieve 100 damage.
With tormentor's (70AL), I will recieve that damage, multipled by 0.841 (84.1% of that damage). So I'll probably recieve 84 damage. This is a mere 16% reduction (precisely, it;s 15.9%). Although 15.9% is a worthwhile thing, it is only half of your 31.8%. Care to mention how you got that?

Ratson Itamar · Apr 29, 2009, 06:32 PM // 18:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

Although 15.9% is a worthwhile thing, it is only half of your 31.8%. Care to mention how you got that?

It did seem to high, I even double checked it, I guess I wanted it to be true :P. But you're right, I was looking at the left column instead of the right one (at the table on wiki). Still, 15.9% seems worth it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

Holy damage is armour ignoring.
Armour ignoring damage generally does the stated amount of damage, armour is ignored.
Holy damage will do more damage against someone wearing tormentors than it will against someone with survivors.

According to wiki; Most skills that directly deal holy damage are also armor ignoring. Not all. I also took a second look at the skills that inflict holy damage, and they're not used as much as I originally thought. You probably shouldn't go with the tormentor's insignia to JQ but other then that and the afflicted monks I think it's safe to take it. I will equip it on myself and test it before I will state for sure that it's a "safe" choice. GW's servers don't allow it at the moment.

I'm trying to think if there's a better choice for necros than the meta survivor's insignia and get some feedback from everyone. To me survivor's doesn't seem to be worth it. Degen and even armor ingoring damage are not as strong as regular damage, that's why weakness is so fatal on melee classes even though it doesn't affect their +dmg attack skills. Tormentor's will net you more health compared to Survivor's after taking more than 250 damage. You don't need +40HP if you didn't take more than 250 damage so your life isn't in danger, meaning it's completely outshined by +10AL. You need +40HP when you're in risk of dying. By that time you would've taken way more than 250dmg and that's without considering that you most likely got healed which only makes tormentor's even better.

Plus, the 40HP bonus can be reduced through Death Penalties, AL can't.

Moloch Vein · Apr 29, 2009, 07:41 PM // 19:41

Well, to be fair, the 40HP bonus is not reduced through DP. Your overall health level is. This makes a character with high DP and no Survivor insignia very, very frail.

MisterB · Apr 29, 2009, 08:25 PM // 20:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

Holy damage is armour ignoring.

It's not.
[Avatar of Balthazar]
[Judge's Insight]
[Heart of Holy Flame]
[Lightbringer's Gaze]
Those are just a few examples.

Question for all of you: Does Tormentor's count as bonus damage for any source of holy damage, i.e. the damage from it would ignore armor rating, correct?

Xenomortis · Apr 29, 2009, 09:15 PM // 21:15

Well ok, the majority of holy damage is armour ignoring.
Tormentor's will trigger on any source of holy damage. Sometimes the extra armour will negate it, it usually will not.

The extra health from survivor's is not affected by Death penalty. Death Penalty subtracts the relative percentage of the unmodded maximum health for that player (480 for a lvl 20).

Survivor's will lessen the effect of degeneration (which does hurt if left unchecked) and of any form of damage and of Death Penalty.
Tormentor's will lessen the effect of any form of armour dependant damage but will make worse (perhaps more than Survivor's), the effect of Holy Damage.

Ratson Itamar · Apr 29, 2009, 09:18 PM // 21:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moloch Vein

Well, to be fair, the 40HP bonus is not reduced through DP. Your overall health level is. This makes a character with high DP and no Survivor insignia very, very frail.

I know, which is even worse, because the reduction will be higher. The percentage is the same but the over all health loss is higher. It's even worse than I've previously stated.

Basic example:
0.85 (health after DP) * 600 (kinda basic HP with survivor) = 510. Or, in other words, -90HP.
0.85 * 40 = losing 34HP.

Edit:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

The extra health from survivor's is not affected by Death penalty. Death Penalty subtracts the relative percentage of the unmodded maximum health for that player (480 for a lvl 20).

Didn't know that. It seems that that're a lot of things that I'm not aware of. Scratch this post..damn.