Curse

Jeydra · May 28, 2009, 01:19 AM // 01:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carinae Dragonblood

What you really mean is a caster can't run that with H/H, which is an odd thing to say, given that:

1) I've been quite clear that you need a human melee.
2) The idea of running 2 man Discord has been mentioned in his thread...

I know you said you want a human melee. I also said I'll go out there as E/W Sword or E/A Daggers if I have to. And I asked for complete builds. Ring a bell?

Look at your teambuild as well. You're asking for:

Orders
MM
SoH
2x Aegis
2x PS and SB
Tons of hex and condition removal
Enchantment removal

Is your idea of the teambuild to be N/Mo x2, one as a MM and one as Orders, both with Aegis and PS and SB, and one Monk with Strength of Honor? I'm guessing here because you haven't been clear.

Give a complete build because this is still pretty unclear (what's the elite on the Monk for instance?).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carinae Dragonblood

Melee deal damage, casters support. You can NOT like that fact until the end of time, but it won't change reality. Melee attack faster, don't have aftercast, and can be buffed to a much greater degree than casters. Casters are crap damage dealers in this game, and no amount of sticking your fingers in your ears and going "lalalalalala" is going to change that.

That's what you think by the way (Cry of Pain EBVAS YMLAD Finish Him blah blah blah).

As for the other build you've posted, I've not seen it before until now. Is THAT your idea of a complete build, or do you prefer the other build you posted in this thread? Pick a build and I'll put it against Duncan HM. I should say first that you need Swap and Signet of Sorrow somewhere, so you fit it in. I'll also appreciate it if you can give complete builds, with every single skill and every spec, so I don't have to try to read your mind.

@The Riven - what's your point? You seem to have posted responses to things you didn't quote ...

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

I tried Grand Court in HM for ZQuest.
On my AP-CoP mesmer. With a warrior guildy. If I am not mistaken - all heroes, except for Tahky were Discord.
We died at the first wave.
3 times.

Guildy got bored - I switch to my para.
Morgy, Jin, Tahky, Mhenlo, warior, mesmer, paragon hench.
Masters on our first run.

What my experience tells me is that Discord is worse.
Yes?

I did Grand Court HM with semi-Discordway + Henchmen. Had 2x N/Rt's with Discord and Tahlkora. Was very simple. Did it in less than 6 minutes on my first try. So from what you wrote, I conclude you're not using Discordway properly. If you don't believe me, I can give you a run firsthand (message me in-game).

AtomicMew · May 28, 2009, 02:01 AM // 02:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

I1. It is definitely not all about DPS. Rolling over the mob is great, but if you want maximum DPS and nothing else then you'll run 0 healing, which is of course stupid. What's more, you need stable DPS that works. Having high DPS on a physical but getting Blinded means you deal no DPS. You cannot have a team that has only DPS.

There has been some confusion by word usage, and the physway people just see what they want and scream "troll troll troll!"

If they'd bother to think a bit, they'd realize what I meant. I stated that triple necro isn't able to deal pressure over a long time. Carinae et al took this to mean that triple necro doesn't have DPS. First of all, LOL. Secondly, I simply meant that, if you are not actively killing, triple necro runs out of steam due to soul reaping. This is almost never a problem, but it does happen. Most of the time, discordway is dealing more DPS than physway could ever hope to achieve.

And YES, to clarify to others who couldn't get their mind around it, it IS about DPS... of the TEAM. Comparing an entire physical + buffs + orders to one skill, discord is, to put it lightly, stupid. There has not been a refutation of this point.

Quote:

For a build meant to be usable everywhere, Selve NM is just as valid a testing area as anywhere else.

Since when has discordway been meant to be usable "everywhere?" And second of all, it's not a fair testing location because it's "harder" than most VQs. I'd say it's in the upper 80 percentile there. A fairer location would probably be something like Silent Surf.

Also, as I stated numerous times since page 2, I value speed more than ubiquity. Physway is necessarily going to be able to do harder areas than discordway due to its ability to do pressure, like DoA. That does not automatically mean physway is better.

@Upier:

First off, discordway H/H Grand Court ~5 minutes.

Secondly, You, like others, have fallen under the fallacy that SY! = physway. SY! is a PvE only skill and thus cannot be used by heroes.

Chthon · May 28, 2009, 03:18 AM // 03:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by traversc

I have not argued 6x discord is the best option. Half the discords get cancelled, anyway. As Ratson just stated, 6x discord is just unimaginative.

OH that's right. I forgot. You improved discordway by turing it into RoJway and calling it discordway. Because RoJ is obviously another thing that's exclusive to discordway builds....

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carinae Dragonblood

Oh, it's been a troll thread since the OP, I now realize.

He has done everything he can to avoid the analysis: We try to discuss DPS, then he say's it's not about DPS. Instead, it's about rolling over the mob quickly (which is necessarily about DPS).

One points that out and then it becomes about "support". Then one points out that Discordway doesn't have a monopoly on support, any build can have support. Then he says a physical needs more support than can be reasonably given, so I show him how much support I have available. Not good enough, or conversely, I'm a liar.

Then a physical has to use 'attack skills' (oh the humanity) while ignoring the fact that Discord locks in THREE heroes primary professions AND locks them to Death Magic.

Then, a physical is merely spiking down targets, one by one, but Discord, on the other hand....oh wait. And we're lying about how much damage a physical does too, and about how little Discord does. Besides, buffing physicals is lame, everyone knows CASTERS are the uber-damage dealers in GW.

The he says it's the minions baby! Because we all know 40 minions is the new uber-build. Why hasn't anyone considered that before? Man, we're dummies.

That's about the size of it. I recognized this as a troll thread from the start; that's why I tried to stay out of it for awhile. traversc's gone from emphasizing discordway's "superior" DPS, to emphasizing its damage/cast-time (a totally worthless measurement), to emphasizing the amount of space for utility, to emphasizing a number of non-discord skills that have no stronger relationship to discordway than to any other build. Even though he's been disproved on every point, he keeps coming up with new "reasons" discordway is the best build ever. I think he intends to keep on doing this until we get tired of refuting him. If you keep at it long enough, I'm sure you'll find yourself arguing against the position that discordway is great because there's lots of barspace for Otyugh's Cry. Better to give up now.

AtomicMew · May 28, 2009, 06:46 AM // 06:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

OH that's right. I forgot. You improved discordway by turing it into RoJway and calling it discordway. Because RoJ is obviously another thing that's exclusive to discordway builds....

I don't see your point.

The discussion for H/H is basically over. I said at the beginning that I was willing to consider other builds for 2 man heroway. I actually suggested 3 discord + 3 roj in another thread... I guess I should be flattered that you remembered

6x discorders are redundant because it is too much damage. So taking things like RoJ will kill mobs faster. Or you can even do racway + discordway and get the best of both worlds....

Quote:

traversc's gone from emphasizing discordway's "superior" DPS, to emphasizing its damage/cast-time (a totally worthless measurement), to emphasizing the amount of space for utility,

It is not a "worthless measurement."

Let me ask you this: do you have healers and MMs in physway?

Discordway does too, except the healers and MM output efficient DPS as well. Discord is bar compression and allows more utility slots. H/H Discordway can easily take 2x MMs, while physway is stuck with only one maximum, or else you're sacrificing a physical and gimping orders slightly.

The fact that discordway can easily take 2x MMs and still have strong standalone damage is the main reason discordway H/H is so superior. (But again, the discussion for H/H is not worthwhile, and I don't wish to discuss it. )

Quote:

to emphasizing a number of non-discord skills that have no stronger relationship to discordway than to any other build. Even though he's been disproved on every point, he keeps coming up with new "reasons" discordway is the best build ever.

I already explained how certain skill were related to and synergized with discordway.

Oh, and there I went and broke my promise to not repeat myself... bah

Let me just say again, it is NOT all about DPS. You can't compare the DPS of a physical to just discord and be intellectually honest. A discorder can do so much more.

upier · May 28, 2009, 06:58 AM // 06:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

I did Grand Court HM with semi-Discordway + Henchmen. Had 2x N/Rt's with Discord and Tahlkora. Was very simple. Did it in less than 6 minutes on my first try. So from what you wrote, I conclude you're not using Discordway properly. If you don't believe me, I can give you a run firsthand (message me in-game).

You mean, I tried something, failed at it, and concluded it was shit?
I thought that was the template on how one assesses builds around here.

Quote:

Originally Posted by traversc

@Upier:

First off, discordway H/H Grand Court ~5 minutes.

Secondly, You, like others, have fallen under the fallacy that SY! = physway. SY! is a PvE only skill and thus cannot be used by heroes.

Now I am SERIOUSLY confused:

Quote:

Originally Posted by traversc

When I tried it on my assa, with a typical physway build:

MS/DB + SY!
MM/FF
RoJ/SoH
orders derv
2x healers hench
melee hench
interrupt hench

Bolded the important part.

So, how would YOU define a physical heavy team as?

Edit:
As I have said in my minion-thread - I consider minions to be a complete waste of a slot on a physical team.

Jeydra · May 28, 2009, 07:33 AM // 07:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

You mean, I tried something, failed at it, and concluded it was shit?
I thought that was the template on how one assesses builds around here.

I tried a similar build against the same area and it went really smoothly, and so concluded you weren't doing it right. I thought that was the template on how one assesses something someone else has done.

Quote:

Originally Posted by traversc

Since when has discordway been meant to be usable "everywhere?" And second of all, it's not a fair testing location because it's "harder" than most VQs. I'd say it's in the upper 80 percentile there. A fairer location would probably be something like Silent Surf.

Also, as I stated numerous times since page 2, I value speed more than ubiquity. Physway is necessarily going to be able to do harder areas than discordway due to its ability to do pressure, like DoA. That does not automatically mean physway is better.

In the battle for the "ultimate PvE build" we should of course consider every single area. That's what PvE is right? Selve NM may be in the 80th percentile of PvE but it is still part of PvE and, since it is in NM, you should expect the "ultimate PvE build" to roll through it effortlessly. The way I've been going, I think builds based around Discordway is almost the ultimate PvE build. There are very few places it can't do. Recently there was a ZQuest involving the Sepulchre of Dragimmar. I'd completely forgotten what the dungeon is like, except vaguely that there aren't many bodies in the dungeon, so I went in with semi-standard Discordway (unaltered builds even: 2x N/Rt, VoR Mes, E/A caller) and did the dungeon in HM easily enough. That's pretty good I would say.

By the way Discordway pressures very well, so long as minions are up.

Also by the way you might want to look at your two quotes:

"And YES, to clarify to others who couldn't get their mind around it, it IS about DPS... of the TEAM. Comparing an entire physical + buffs + orders to one skill, discord is, to put it lightly, stupid. There has not been a refutation of this point."

vs.

"Let me just say again, it is NOT all about DPS. You can't compare the DPS of a physical to just discord and be intellectually honest. A discorder can do so much more."

Personally I'll say that it is about DPS, but not only about it, although you should probably stress that since people seem up in arms over it ...

upier · May 28, 2009, 08:00 AM // 08:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

I tried a similar build against the same area and it went really smoothly, and so concluded you weren't doing it right. I thought that was the template on how one assesses something someone else has done.

There is no way that I can currently re-create your tests.
My para is relatively new and I hate playing GWEN. So I went for something else. I did what the OP suggested - I tested it in a real life scenario.
I also tested it in many different scenarios - my para has VQ-ed more of Elona than any other guy I have, and it has turned out to be the easiest of all my options.

The problem with this kind of tests is that you need just ONE guy to prove you wrong. That's why I asked if my conclusion that Discord was worse was correct.
And that's why it matters so little.

Carinae · May 28, 2009, 08:12 AM // 08:12

@Jeydra - I posted the entire team build in the other thread, except for the lead human melee. I wasn't trying to tell them how to run their melee. However, on my Sin, I run:

14 DM
13 CS

Zealous Dags, 600hp

Golden Fox Strike (or Black Mantis Thrust)
Golden Fang Strike
Death Blossom
Moebius Strike
Critical Agility
Asura Scan (can be swapped if necessary, usually isn't)
Critical Eye
Save Yourself!

I don't think you can run a damage melee as E/A. No CS, no Crit Eye, lower Dagger Mastery....

Quote:

Originally Posted by traversc

First off, discordway H/H Grand Court ~5 minutes.

HM Grand Court

First off, you MUST take Talkora, so I did NOT bring my Ether-Prot. That's a big hit. Second, no Prot hench. No Aegis chaining for me! Third, no sword hench.

I took:

Devona
Paragon Hench
Earth Hench
Mhenlo

Talkora had a standard Word/prot hybrid bar. I took my Smiting-Orders and my trusty hero-MM. Same bars as the other thread. Same bar for me as posted above.

And FYI: My sin has r4 Lightbringer. (and for that I accept criticism

)

It wasn't exactly 'the best run evar'.

Jeydra · May 28, 2009, 08:29 AM // 08:29

Well suggest something then, after all if Discordway is just an "OK" option and there're better ones about surely there's something I can do as an Elementalist primary?

And is the SY! critical for your build? If yes I'll go E/W.

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

There is no way that I can currently re-create your tests.
My para is relatively new and I hate playing GWEN. So I went for something else. I did what the OP suggested - I tested it in a real life scenario.
I also tested it in many different scenarios - my para has VQ-ed more of Elona than any other guy I have, and it has turned out to be the easiest of all my options.

The problem with this kind of tests is that you need just ONE guy to prove you wrong. That's why I asked if my conclusion that Discord was worse was correct.
And that's why it matters so little.

Or I could conclude you are bad ...

You are telling me that you can't do Grand Court HM with Discordway. But I can, quite painlessly even. I can even go get you a screenshot. Why is it that I should be able to and you not, unless we are looking at a skill difference?

EDIT: @above - are we comparing times now? I'll go try it myself later then. By the way Grand Court pretty much favours physicalway because there isn't enough time to animate a heap of minions; still I'm game to see if I can beat your time.

Carinae · May 28, 2009, 08:47 AM // 08:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

EDIT: @above - are we comparing times now? I'll go try it myself later then.

No, I'm not really interested in comparing times. They'll vary from player to player and zone/mission. There are probably even zones where Discordway significantly outperforms Physway.

I just wanted to post the time, and the handicapping of my build and compare that to what traversc thought was a good time for Discordway.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

By the way Grand Court pretty much favours physicalway because there isn't enough time to animate a heap of minions; still I'm game to see if I can beat your time.

I was thinking the opposite. Multiple clerics with Aegis. Snare hexes, Well of Silence, etc...

I'd say that one favors casters. Snares meaningless, Aegis meaningless, Well gives you trouble with minions, but I think a smart player prioritizes the necros and clerics regardless of the build.

Regarding weather or not SY is essential, I'd say that depends on the zone and the player. I rarely NEED it, but it sure comes in handy, and it's certainly saved the day more than once. Do you need it? Only you can answer that.

Moloch Vein · May 28, 2009, 08:59 AM // 08:59

5 minutes on the first try with a char to unlock Morgahn is pretty damn good, creds.

Tenebrae · May 28, 2009, 09:01 AM // 09:01

Discordway great ? ofc , takes the most overpowered ( imho ) pve prof and almost all of its advantages and packs em into builds that a dumb hero and its AI can play impressively good.

Is it better than any1 else for 1 player + H/H ? . Well most of the times yes but mostly for the reason above. Its just "do whatever you do W , A , E , Rit , R or whatever and we'll kill the rest" .

Are there better builds with 2 players + Heroes ? . If you adjust your team build to the weaknesses of the zone you are gonna play at then , most of the times yes.

Are there builds with better DPS than Discordway ? . Not many , even less with only 1player + H/H , but otherwise ( 2 or 3 players ) yea , there are some.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

Well suggest something then, after all if Discordway is just an "OK" option and there're better ones about surely there's something I can do as an Elementalist primary?

And is the SY! critical for your build? If yes I'll go E/W.

Well you are a nuker , just nuke them all lol. No , SY! is not critical for the build but if u play E/A for EVA and spam other skills why cant a A/W take SY! ? anyway no , its not critical.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

EDIT: @above - are we comparing times now? I'll go try it myself later then. By the way Grand Court pretty much favours physicalway because there isn't enough time to animate a heap of minions; still I'm game to see if I can beat your time.

Oh yeah , now Grand Court is the "Vietnam" to Discord way. Nah it is not .

PD: Please , stop comparing both "ways" . Discordway has been tested , used and slightly differs when you "adjust" it from one zone to another while there is NO Standart Physway.

Jeydra · May 28, 2009, 09:30 AM // 09:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moloch Vein

5 minutes on the first try with a char to unlock Morgahn is pretty damn good, creds.

Every time you do it you get that "you can now add General Morgahn" message.

I just went to do it, got 4:57. Could've been like 20 seconds faster because I stopped claiming a rift when it hadn't been neutralized yet (but I swear I got the "your party has claimed 2 of 3 rifts" message). I might try it again later to see if I can beat that time.

EDIT: Round 2. This time I didn't display my Lightbringer title (which is 8). 5:02. I realized midway into this run that I had Tahlkora on Avoid Combat and she was a Smiting Monk with RoJ, so this probably added some time.

EDIT: Round 3. Displayed my Lightbringer title and fixed Tahlkora's status. 4:20. Turns out the MM problem isn't too major after all, there's plenty of time to animate. More major is requiring Tahlkora, which stops me from using full Discordway (could only use two Necros). I'm pretty sure the time can be shortened even further.

PS: Aegis, Well of Silence etc - well you can't claim all the advantages of physicalway without also taking into account the disadvantages, and one of those disadvantages is that antimelee is far, far, far more common than anticaster. The Margonites have Spellbreaker and Well of Silence affects Finish Him! (I dropped YMLAD for Lightbringer's Gaze here) too so it's not all rosy for casters as well.

upier · May 28, 2009, 09:47 AM // 09:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

Or I could conclude you are bad ...

You are telling me that you can't do Grand Court HM with Discordway. But I can, quite painlessly even. I can even go get you a screenshot. Why is it that I should be able to and you not, unless we are looking at a skill difference?

Wouldn't this make physical superior?
I mean - if I really am a bad player, then going physical enabled me to do something that Discord didn't.
I can't find a better recommendation.

Jeydra · May 28, 2009, 09:50 AM // 09:50

On the other hand, if Discordway is more effective but requires more skill, I think it's fair to conclude that Discordway is superior.

upier · May 28, 2009, 10:32 AM // 10:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

On the other hand, if Discordway is more effective but requires more skill, I think it's fair to conclude that Discordway is superior.

The reason why we run necros is because h/h are too dumb to do something as skilful as managing one's energy. That would be the point - those bars require no skill at all.
And yet, I've managed to fail with them. I know.
And that's the whole point, when one chooses a playground and then pulls general rules out of that single experience. I know that Discord should work, yet I failed with it. I know that physicals should work - yet YOU managed to fail with them. And if we base our comparison purely on situation like that - if you are able to conclude that physicals are sub-par, then I should be able to conclude that Discord is sub-par.
And we achieved nothing.

Seriously, run a REAL physical team. Yes, this will probably mean you won't be able to run it on your ele. But you know what - there are 10 classes in GW and 8 party slots. The best option is going to be build based on the guy running it and on the area it is ran in.
And Discord just skips that step and offers you something that will most likely work in most places. At the expense of being optimized.
The best thing about Discord is that it works and not that it's the best option. And the reason why this is good enough is because PvE is easy and there is nothing that would make us want to better ourselves. If only the best option would work, then we'd be left with a bunch of guys crying in a corner somewhere. But that would also mean we wouldn't be discussing Discord now.

Ratson Itamar · May 28, 2009, 10:41 AM // 10:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

Wouldn't this make physical superior?
I mean - if I really am a bad player, then going physical enabled me to do something that Discord didn't.
I can't find a better recommendation.

No, that means that SY! is a Get Out of Jail Free Card. That's by the best property of taking a human physical. Your warrior friend most probably didn't take it or was really bad and didn't use it properly.
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ _________________________________________

Don't know why discussing H/H is below your level, but keep discussing on theories isn't. If anyone here is passionate enough to debate it here for so long and testing it in various areas, must have the patience to put their team build on PvX. While it's not perfect, it will allow more people to give their thoughts about the issue and vote on it as well.

I think that this discussion isn't really a discussion at all. Everyone came with a strong opinion and no one is willing to budge. You're all just trying to prove that the others are wrong. You're probably going to dismiss my sayings but it was worthwhile to have said them anyway.

maxxfury · May 28, 2009, 10:43 AM // 10:43

lol @ disco requiring skill....its point n click! Can i just ask tho, for the sub 5 min times, did you bind disco to keys? or let them use it in their own time? ty

And again, Disco has very subpar DPS! its 100~ every 3 seconds! around 33dps! The minions add the sustained damage(and deathnova)
And tbh if your nec's arent using disco on recharge, thats lowers the 33~dps further.. Disco is a spike, not dps

evenfall · May 28, 2009, 10:53 AM // 10:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

On the other hand, if Discordway is more effective but requires more skill, I think it's fair to conclude that Discordway is superior.

I have to disagree with this though since discordway is really simple(and boring

) to play.

Anyway I have 10 pve chars of every class and ran a variety of builds with H/H.
For most areas, it is hard-pressed for me to distinguish the effectiveness between the different builds as long as they are good bars that the hero can play well and the team build tweaked for the area/mission.

Grand Court isn't that hard even in HM.
Anyway first try with a typical MM+SS+Tahlkora and 4 hench

AtomicMew · May 28, 2009, 04:30 PM // 16:30

Jeydra, fair points all around. Selve was easy for me (not one wipe), but I just don't like it because I see it as somewhat biased against triple nec, if only for the fact that it's impossible to maintain a minion army as minions get stuck on the spirits >.>
I can think of other builds which would have been faster for that area (like hexway) and maybe BHA with frozen soil.

I can also think of other areas which would be cake for discordway, but more difficult for physway. (In other words, biased FOR discordway).

I don't care so much for universality. I'm perfectly happy changing my builds around, and I just don't think discordway should be touted as a "universal" build, because it's not (IMO). Especially in tougher dungeons, it's much more effective to tailor your build to the area.

And what I meant by "it's not about DPS" is simply that it's completely unfair to compare the DPS of a physical to the DPS of the skill, discord. But you're right, I could have worded that better.

@ Upier:
Are you saying that I can't run MS/DB with discordway??!??!

Otherwise, you have to admit that SY! is not a function of physway (e.g. taking physical heroes or hench + buffs).

@Everyone posting Selbekeh mission times:

No one.. actually cares? The point Jeydra was making about ~5 min with discordway was just to show that Upier obviously was not doing it right if he couldn't even complete it 2 man discordway.