Curse

Saraneth · May 24, 2009, 06:50 PM // 18:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

Discord is one target at a time.

It doesn't differ greatly in that regard to physicals attacking a called target. There's also nothing preventing the use of paragon or rangers in order to trigger MoP on an AP nec/discord setup. This could even make use of the time during which the discord heroes are casting defensive spells instead of using discord.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

Putrid Explosion? That wastes a corpse that your MM/MB wanted.

It depends on how many discords you have and what type of minion spells they're using. If you're running 3 copies of [[Animate Shambling Horror], then there will be corpses enough for putrid explosion while the minion spells are recharging (25secs).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

That means they may not be doing what you want them to be doing when you want it...

As you know, binding discord certain keys will allow you to spike down what you want when you want it. The heroes will cancel what they're doing and proceed under your direction.

AtomicMew · May 24, 2009, 08:31 PM // 20:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carinae Dragonblood

If you are stuck on a caster primary.... But it doesn't out-damage Physway even with 1 human melee.

^Perfect example of someone what I like to call "arguing without argument." In other words, you're not making a point.

I can't understand what you are trying to say, considering every thing you say basically supports may argument, or doesn't even make sense in the context of this thread?

I'm not going to try to unravel your entire post, but I'm just going to say this:

Even "your side" does not agree with you. If you think a physical can outdamage a MoP nuker, with 10-20 minions going around, then there is no hope. A MoP nuker will outdamage any single physical.

Consider that this is the necromancer forum and also moloch was the one who championed the MoP nuker. "Stuck" as a caster primary, indeed.

Ratson Itamar · May 24, 2009, 09:24 PM // 21:24

How 'bout people starting to put their builds where their mouth is? Won't you think that it will definitely shorten this thread and finally shut the door on this whole discussion? You say you have better builds, I have no reason not to believe you, you all strike me as honest people. But we still need a hard proof. Imo, we should split the builds into two categories; H/H and two human players with 6 heroes.

Moloch Vein · May 24, 2009, 09:56 PM // 21:56

First, no, it is correct, the numbers that sometimes fill my screen while playing a Mark nuker are something no single physical could ever hope to achieve. I realize that I am making a best-case scenario here, but if I have ten minions, five fiends and five horrors, converging on a target, together with four physicals (my standard team build usually consists of me as Mark, another as Imbagon, a third as melee (normally an A/W running either Locust or DB/MS), two paragon heroes, one MM and one Order both with /P /Mo or /Rt secondary and support function, and one straight WoH hybrid N... if possible I try to squeeze in an ER/GDW/Prot/Infuse elementalist, if one is available), my single target DPS will be around 140, while my AoE DPS from Mark will be 365. Using a Hundred Blades warrior will potentially raise this DPS exponentially, to well beyond 1000 DPS.

However, there are times where this DPS simply doesn't matter. With a good team, I am frequently frustrated by not even having the time to cast Promise - the target is dead way before that, and it's on 50% health or less before I finish casting Barbs.

Also, it's sometimes getting silly to argue "who's doing the most damage". My Mark build is in a symbiotic relationship with the physical characters. Often you calculate the damage potential from a single physical also adding the Barbs triggers to the total damage. Is it "the assassin" that does the damage from Strength of Honor, or the elementalist?

More importantly, as anyone who has ever tried equipping a caster hero with an adrenaline skill knows (and yeah, I once tried running a N/P hero with Crippling Anthem...)... casters simply don't use their weapon all that much. At least, they don't if they have any reasonable build and energy management. This means that a physical hero will produce a lot more triggers of Mark and Barbs than a caster. They will do a lot more damage from the Order and get healed much more from it (Order of the Vampire is by far my strongest party-wide heal), they will benefit much more from a EVSOH, and they will also benefit more from consumables (and yes, I do use Celerities while vanquishing, mostly, because I love the IMS.)

Now, please realize that a paragon attacking a target with a spear while standing in an Honor ward, pumped by OoV and striking a Barbed target under AR (that's around 0.9 attacks per second) will deal 16+15+15 damage per strike. That's 46 damage, disregarding the weapon's base damage, for an extremely conservative count of 41DPS... without using any attack skills. This alone beats Discord's damage potential. A Locust's Fury assassin will deal around 90DPS in this manner, also with no attack skills, and if you manage to find a slot for a 12-spec SoH, his damage output increases to 135DPS. Add GDW for 175DPS. This is more than the combined damage output from five Discord necromancers spamming their elite on recharge... without using an attack skill.

Now, I realize I'm not being entirely fair, because a Discord team will also have various things augmenting their damage output to a degree, plus incidental damage through minions exploding and hitting stuff, etc, etc. I just wanted to show you that the potential DPS from a physical character isn't to be taken lightly.

The reason I am using physical setups for almost everything in this game is that physical damage is by far the most spammable source in the game, and it's also the easiest to augment, by the most possible options. Also, the best options for this are from my main primary.

As a side note, to Jeydra, it seems that you did not bring enough defensive utility on your hero bars (actually not much utility at all, which is understandable if you don't normally build for assassins.)

A 1-2-3 chain is something that heroes have a hard time getting and will rarely use. It's better to use only lead-off or only off-dual. Also, assassins have four pips of energy regeneration and an excellent energy management primary attribute. You can turn your assassin heroes into A/Mo and use this energy to power low-cost prots and heals, if needed. Lotus attacks can also be used to fuel this. However there is still the problem of melee AI, which is the main reason I usually go with paragon heroes.

As for the Order I'd be happy to suggest some N/Rt bars to you in-game.

I'm sorry that this turned into such a long-winded post. I certainly haven't covered everything either.

Calista Blackblood · May 24, 2009, 10:18 PM // 22:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ratson Itamar

How 'bout people starting to put their builds where their mouth is? Won't you think that it will definitely shorten this thread and finally shut the door on this whole discussion? You say you have better builds, I have no reason not to believe you, you all strike me as honest people. But we still need a hard proof. Imo, we should split the builds into two categories; H/H and two human players with 6 heroes.

Ok..From now on any posts in this thread that do not contain discord builds will be deleted.If you want a 2 page thread on how great Discord is,prove it builds (H/H or 2human team builds)Thanks.

Explain your changes and why..

AtomicMew · May 24, 2009, 10:23 PM // 22:23

Quote:

a paragon attacking a target with a spear while standing in an Honor ward, pumped by OoV and striking a Barbed target under AR (that's around 0.9 attacks per second) will deal 16+15+15 damage per strike. That's 46 damage, disregarding the weapon's base damage, for an extremely conservative count of 41DPS... without using any attack skills. This alone beats Discord's damage potential.

Finally, someone bother to actually try to work out the numbers!

First, I'd like to make clear, that the discussion below is NOT about DPS. It is about efficient use of time, which some people just dont get.

A paragon attacks every 1.125 seconds under a 25% ias for 46 + base damage. Let's say base damage is ~15 including armor and level of HM foes, which is close enough, agreed?

That averages out to ~54 damage for 1 second spent.

Now compare to discord:
100 damage in 1.75 seconds ~57 damage for 1 second spent.

So it's pretty clear that even in the best of circumstances with orders and buffs and even barbs, a physical auto attack is only just comparable to discord efficiency. With an attack skill, a physical becomes higher, but considering the amount of buffs necessary to achieve that, and the fact that a physical is stuck being less efficient than discord the rest of the time, it hardly matters.

It also doesn't matter that discord has a recharge, because a discorder has 7 other skill slots to perform essential team functions. Healing, MMing, etc.

In a non-discord team, you'd have a normal healer in addition to your physicals. 2 discord healers will always outperform 1 normal healer in healing. 2 discord healers will also outperform 1 physical in damage. AT THE SAME TIME.

Again, it is about efficient use of time. Buffing up physicals also takes time. (An orders will take up a tremendous amount of time and that's pretty much all an orders hero can do) Even if buffing discord were possible, it doesn't need any buff to be comparable in efficiency.

Also, I'm not even going to bother making an argument for the fact that physicals are far more often and easily shutdown in PvE, but it is certainly true.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Calista BlackBlood

Ok..From now on any posts in this thread that do not contain discord builds will be deleted.If you want a 2 page thread on how great Discord is,prove it builds (H/H or 2human team builds)Thanks.

Explain your changes and why..

Standard discord is already posted on PvXwiki. Daesu has also posted his own variant which he has also posted for physical players + discordway.

The point is, everyone already knows what discordway looks like. People are saying that they have faster builds for H/H and 2-man: a faster build has yet to be posted here.

I am utterly convinced that there is no H/H build faster than discordway. I am more open to the possibility for there to be stronger 2-man builds.

But even just due to the fact that it's simply better outright to take discord-healers rather than normal healers, any build that claims to be faster will have discord in it anyway, which leads to gray area. I.e., at what point does a build cease to be a discordway variant and something else altogether?

Moloch Vein · May 24, 2009, 10:37 PM // 22:37

traversc, I understand your point, but I don't think it holds.

You are, sort of, operating under the assumption that a physical is just attacks and IAS and that's it. the natural operation of a paragon is to throw a spear. This all fuels other things he is doing, like shouts (which have no casting time) and utility attacks (which are a part of the spear-throwing.) Stunning Strike, Watch Yourself, Stand Your Ground, Fall Back etc. are all highly useful skills.

In essence, I guess the real reason that we're stuck in this discussion is that nobody has managed to create a team build capable of clearing every area in the game. I mean every single one, including the Ebon Citadel in Hard Mode. I'm not silly enough to try to argue that Discord-based teams aren't viable. However, I think that depending on the situation, there are calls for choosing other characters and other classes capable of both bringing different utility (try running Defensive Anthem on a necromancer), and higher and more sustainable damage.

Oh, also, while I think Calista's suggestion is a bit over-the-top, I would be interested in seeing your normal complete team build for 2 players and 6 heroes. I could post a couple of mine.

Carinae · May 24, 2009, 10:38 PM // 22:38

@people wanting builds: Yes, I agree. I haven't posted because the damn BBcode is broken and it's crap to post a build without it. I have an open issue with Inde to get this fixed, and it is being worked on. Unless the Death Star is en-route to your planet, it's not an urgent issue. Be patient.

If you guys really, really want builds now, I guess I could write them out, but I'm not eager to do that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moloch Vein

However, there are times where this DPS simply doesn't matter. With a good team, I am frequently frustrated by not even having the time to cast Promise - the target is dead way before that, and it's on 50% health or less before I finish casting Barbs.

Now you see what I have been saying for months. Barbs is HUGELY overrated. You can barely get it on a target before it dies, getting maybe two triggers. A lot of times, you can't even get AP on the target.

Barbs needs a 1s cast time and a 5e cost to even be competitive.

EDIT:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Calista BlackBlood

Ok..From now on any posts in this thread that do not contain discord builds will be deleted.If you want a 2 page thread on how great Discord is,prove it builds (H/H or 2human team builds)Thanks.

Explain your changes and why..

I strongly disagree with this. This thread is not about suggestions for improving Discord builds, it's about "Why Discord is great" which must necessarily be open to the possibility that it isn't great.

If the OP posted his Discord build and asked for improvements, I would agree with you.

Chthon · May 25, 2009, 12:28 AM // 00:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carinae Draongblood

I strongly disagree with this. This thread is not about suggestions for improving Discord builds, it's about "Why Discord is great" which must necessarily be open to the possibility that it isn't great.

I strongly agree with this. It's bad enough that this thread is a shameless continuation of a closed flamefest. On top of that you want to censor one side of the argument (and the side that happens to be right, at that)?

Quote:

Originally Posted by 360°

You and some others have claimed this, but you didn'just stated that. You should tell what are better options then. :P I run Discordway on my monk, but if there's a better option, what is it then?

Check the other thread. And use search. I've posted "X has better DPS than discordway" on these forums more times than I can count.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moloch Vein

Now, please realize that a paragon attacking a target with a spear while standing in an Honor ward, pumped by OoV and striking a Barbed target under AR (that's around 0.9 attacks per second) will deal 16+15+15 damage per strike. That's 46 damage, disregarding the weapon's base damage, for an extremely conservative count of 41DPS... without using any attack skills. This alone beats Discord's damage potential. A Locust's Fury assassin will deal around 90DPS in this manner, also with no attack skills, and if you manage to find a slot for a 12-spec SoH, his damage output increases to 135DPS. Add GDW for 175DPS. This is more than the combined damage output from five Discord necromancers spamming their elite on recharge... without using an attack skill.

This is correct. Buffed auto-attacks out-DPS discord. Thread over.

Quote:

Now, I realize I'm not being entirely fair, because a Discord team will also have various things augmenting their damage output to a degree, plus incidental damage through minions exploding and hitting stuff, etc, etc.

You were being pretty close to fair. You threw out "the other 7 skills" for both builds. Yes, discordway can use the other 7 skills to do something, but so can the physical. Unless one wanted to argue that discordway gains so much more from the other 7 skills than physicals do that it makes up the difference, it's a fair way of simplifying the question to keep it conceptually clearer.

And, if you did want to argue that discordway gains so much more from the other 7 skills than physicals do that it makes up the difference, you'd be dead wrong. If anything, discordway loses more ground when you look at what those other 7 skills can be doing -- it's attack skills, SY!, and knockdown versus whatever you can do with 7 non-elite spells with a low attribute spec (or a death or SR spec).

(A couple of other things you're not mentioning in the comparison (for simplicity's sake I'm assuming) are: (1) The intra-team limitations imposed by discord. No one on the team can effectively use something like AP+MoP or AP+AE+CoP since discord is going to kill your pain focus prematurely. And (2) Physicals come with a free armor bonus.)

Quote:

Originally Posted by traversc

First, I'd like to make clear, that the discussion below is NOT about DPS. It is about efficient use of time, which some people just dont get.

A paragon attacks every 1.125 seconds under a 25% ias for 46 + base damage. Let's say base damage is ~15 including armor and level of HM foes, which is close enough, agreed?

That averages out to ~54 damage for 1 second spent.

Now compare to discord:
100 damage in 1.75 seconds ~57 damage for 1 second spent.

This is patently ridiculous.

Moloch showed you that discord loses badly in damage/time, so suddenly you decide that the criterion for a good build is damage/cast-time?

First, that smacks of intellectual dishonesty.

Second, that standard makes no sense. If damage/cast-time really is the standard, then almost any 1/4 or 1/2 cast damage skill is even better than discord. For example, powerspike does 108 damage for 1 second spent and wastel's worry does 89 damage for 1 second spent; both are way better than discord's 57. And, of course, then Fast Casting must be the best primary in the game since it can increase your damage/cast-time so dramatically. So why aren't you running "powerspikeway" using 3x FC/Dom mesmers? Maybe because powerspike isn't really a good source of damage. Maybe because damage/cast-time is NOT a valid way of measuring overall damage output?

The correct standard is the stanard everyone on these boards has been using since Day 1: DPS. Now, like Moloch mentioned before, comparing just discord's DPS to just buffed auto-attack DPS is an oversimplification. A thorough analysis would also count whatever you can do in discord's 1.25 sec downtime, and, also count everything physicalway is doing without added activation times. However, as I explained above, accounting for those details only pushes discordway further behind.

Bottom line: Discordway has worse DPS than a large number of alternative builds. Like I mentioned before, its redeeming advantage is ease of use.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carinae Dragonblood

Now you see what I have been saying for months. Barbs is HUGELY overrated. You can barely get it on a target before it dies, getting maybe two triggers. A lot of times, you can't even get AP on the target.

Barbs needs a 1s cast time and a 5e cost to even be competitive.

I wouldn't go that far. Barbs is still the kiss of death to whatever gets it. It's just that the cast time makes it impractical until the team hiccups on something that doesn't drop dead as planned. Consider it as the mildly-troublesome-foe-killer skill instead of a bread-and-butter-DPS skill and you'll be happier with it.

Moloch Vein · May 25, 2009, 01:20 AM // 01:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

The intra-team limitations imposed by discord. No one on the team can effectively use something like AP+MoP or AP+AE+CoP since discord is going to kill your pain focus prematurely.

This isn't entirely correct.

If Discord kills your pain focus prematurely, then obviously buffed physicals, who do more damage, kill your pain focus even more prematurely.

I don't mind the Mark target dying; this simply gives me an opportunity for another Mark. However, the value of Mark is severely reduced in a Discord team setup, since the main damage done is by a spell, which doesn't trigger physical effects, and since most or all characters are spellcasters, who don't use their weapons very much. It can still be brought (and it probably should), but it's by no means the shining bomb it is with a properly configured team.

My main quarrel with Discord is with the extreme lock it puts on the characters using it regarding attribute point distribution, plus the fact that it sacrifices your elite slot in the process. This means no Empathic Removal, no Order of the Vampire, no Word of Healing, etc. It just isn't a very flexible setup despite the fact that you can indeed bring a lot of different utility on the necromancers, though it certainly is viable.

Discord seems to be more or less a "set-it-and-forget-it" team build. It rarely changes from area to area. Contrasting, physical setups often change to suit the specific situation, exchanging classes, functions, etc. This makes it a bit hard to make a "general Physical" PvE setup. Nevertheless, I'll try to write one up, for 2+6, as requested.

Improvavel · May 25, 2009, 01:52 AM // 01:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moloch Vein

My main quarrel with Discord is with the extreme lock it puts on the characters using it regarding attribute point distribution, plus the fact that it sacrifices your elite slot in the process. This means no Empathic Removal, no Order of the Vampire, no Word of Healing, etc. It just isn't a very flexible setup despite the fact that you can indeed bring a lot of different utility on the necromancers, though it certainly is viable.

Discord seems to be more or less a "set-it-and-forget-it" team build. It rarely changes from area to area. Contrasting, physical setups often change to suit the specific situation, exchanging classes, functions, etc. This makes it a bit hard to make a "general Physical" PvE setup. Nevertheless, I'll try to write one up, for 2+6, as requested.

But one of the main arguments in favor of discord is exactly the fact that physicals needs loads of support to operate - and the main usage of discordway is h/h.

With 2 players and 6 heroes the options grow considerable - it becomes a lot easier to slot in effective hex removal, enough damage buffers, block removals, etc.

Additionally the best physical AI are Paragons followed by rangers.

Target changing can be annoying while bringing melee henchmen and their reaction to AoE damage is meh.

But even in a 2 players + 6 heroes, minion masters are great and its elite options are small (Jagged Bones, Empathic removal and Discord are the ones that come to mind), curses heroes are good too and I'm not sure how good they use AP (must say I haven't used it in heroes) and even necro/rit healers are quite efficient and really the only reason not to give them discord is allow them to get splinter weapon. Necro/eles can be very useful too and again their elite options aren't that fantastic.

The main disadvantage of Discord isn't being elite. It isn't having 2 requirements. It is requiring spec into death.

Some people speak as if the objective of discord necros is damage when it is surviving - Minimalist damage with loads of defense. As if a defensive character by nature assisting in spikes is bad.

The main problem is the melee AI.

Jeydra · May 25, 2009, 04:35 AM // 04:35

I think Callista is joking to be honest ...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chton

And, if you did want to argue that discordway gains so much more from the other 7 skills than physicals do that it makes up the difference, you'd be dead wrong. If anything, discordway loses more ground when you look at what those other 7 skills can be doing -- it's attack skills, SY!, and knockdown versus whatever you can do with 7 non-elite spells with a low attribute spec (or a death or SR spec).

I think you underestimate the power of 10 minions. If you could have 10 minions up all the time, you would deal a LOT more damage (a lot more than a fully buffed physical using attack skills in my experience anyway). You won't need SY either since the minions will be absorbing most of the damage. With three Necros in standard Discordway you can reasonably have twice that number of minions - 20 - and then how would you outdamage that?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Improvavel

Some people speak as if the objective of discord necros is damage when it is surviving - Minimalist damage with loads of defense. As if a defensive character by nature assisting in spikes is bad.

I think you are almost on the mark, but not quite. One of the best parts of having both offensive and defensive skills on your bar is that you can play for damage when your team isn't taking pressure, and play for defense when it is on the verge of wiping. This makes you very flexible, and two out of the three Discord heroes can juggle this quite well (and the third hero can still throw out Aegis and Prot Spirit). Also, since your team has to survive anyway, you need something to heal with. Discord heroes are a lot more stable than relying on henchmen heroes, especially if you're in Tyria.

So I think overall Discordway shores up the henchmen's weakness at defense while offering considerable offense itself. Of course it's trivially possible to increase the damage output from Discordway - just slot in Rising Bile for example - but even without it, once you get the minion armies up and running the DPS is excellent. It is so good in fact that all the times I've run something other than Discordway it's killed enemies slower, with the exception of mass Smiters in Shards of Orr (now THAT was just go in, see enemy, enemy explodes) and mass SF Elementalists in Snowman. But that could be because all I've run are casterballs.

Anyway ...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moloch Vein

A 1-2-3 chain is something that heroes have a hard time getting and will rarely use. It's better to use only lead-off or only off-dual. Also, assassins have four pips of energy regeneration and an excellent energy management primary attribute. You can turn your assassin heroes into A/Mo and use this energy to power low-cost prots and heals, if needed. Lotus attacks can also be used to fuel this. However there is still the problem of melee AI, which is the main reason I usually go with paragon heroes.

I was going to try it in the Grand Court of Sebelkeh today, but then realized the mission required Tahlkora so looks like it'll have to wait. In the meantime, how's this build:

A/Mo

12 Dagger
9 Protection Prayers
9 Critical Strikes

Falling Spider
Falling Lotus Strike
Death Blossom
Moebius Strike
Critical Eye
Aegis
Prot Spirit
Res Sig

Just offhands and duals. Mainly hoping the offhands will trigger off GDW. That'll be two of them plus two melee henchmen. Of course if you'd rather use the Paragon henchmen, I'm game as well to try. Testing ground will be tomorrow's ZQuests - the ZBounty today I wound up vanquishing the area with another person while the ZMission required Tahlkora, so ...

AtomicMew · May 25, 2009, 04:47 AM // 04:47

@Cthon.

...

=/

I hate to say it but you and that other guy Carinae are getting to be bothersome, since you are requiring me to repeat myself and adding clutter to the discussion.

It is NOT all about DPS. The argument is NOT about DPS. A discorder can provide other essential functions, like healing. The logical conclusion of your rant is that something stupid like a team of orders + MoP nuker + 6x HB wars or even a team of 8x OoU MMs are the best teams possible, since they do the most DPS. I hope you can now see how absurd your argument is.

If not, let me repeat, it is NOT all about DPS. No one is arguing that a discorder can do more DPS than a physical. I can only assume you think someone is trying to make that argument.

Secondly, I've said THREE TIMES now, that SY! is not a function of running physicalway. SY! is a PvE skill so heroes CANNOT use it. Discordway can run SY! just as well. The only damage buff a physical player misses out on when playing discordway is orders.

I'm sorry, but even though it's going to bother me, I'm just going to ignore any arguments to the effects above, since it is just adding clutter.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moloch Vein

traversc, I understand your point, but I don't think it holds.

You are, sort of, operating under the assumption that a physical is just attacks and IAS and that's it. the natural operation of a paragon is to throw a spear. This all fuels other things he is doing, like shouts (which have no casting time) and utility attacks (which are a part of the spear-throwing.) Stunning Strike, Watch Yourself, Stand Your Ground, Fall Back etc. are all highly useful skills.

That's a valid point about about paragon zero casttime shouts. However, if SY! is available, WY! and SYG! are not used. Besides those two, I just don't see paragon zero-cast shouts as all that useful. Stunning Strike is great utility, and is something that discordway can't easily bring to the table. I'm going to (conditionally) concede that, for 2 man, a combination of racway and discordway would be superior to straight discordway. (Although I've stated RoJway + discordway is superior to both). However, let me ask you this:

Do you consider healing and MMing essential, or at least, very useful functions? If so, why not stick discord on heal/MM heroes and add significant offense at little cost?

Quote:

In essence, I guess the real reason that we're stuck in this discussion is that nobody has managed to create a team build capable of clearing every area in the game. I mean every single one, including the Ebon Citadel in Hard Mode. I'm not silly enough to try to argue that Discord-based teams aren't viable.

Agree and disagree. I'm also not silly enough to say something like "discordway can beat every area of the game." However, my personal measure of what makes a "great" build is more weighted towards its speed, rather than the amount of areas it can complete.

In this respect, discordway is a "great" build considering it can complete every VQ at ridiculous speeds, even though it has trouble in elite areas, dungeons, etc. Compare this to Mallyx heroway, which can obviously complete every area discordway can, and more, yet is slower in every respect. In my opinion, discordway, the faster build is "great"er.

Quote:

However, I think that depending on the situation, there are calls for choosing other characters and other classes capable of both bringing different utility (try running Defensive Anthem on a necromancer), and higher and more sustainable damage.

More sustainable damage... you mean like SS? XD

/runs away

Moloch Vein · May 25, 2009, 06:55 AM // 06:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by traversc

That's a valid point about about paragon zero casttime shouts. However, if SY! is available, WY! and SYG! are not used. Besides those two, I just don't see paragon zero-cast shouts as all that useful. Stunning Strike is great utility, and is something that discordway can't easily bring to the table.

When I bring a paragon duo to my team, I do not only use zero-time shouts, but chants and echoes as well. I try to create a shout web to benefit the team. I consider several of these skills to extremely useful since they provide a non-strippable overlay.

Here are my two Paragon spear bars at the moment:

Morgahn - Command

Spear 10+1 Command 11+1 Leadership 10+1+1

<Optional> - "Fall Back!"- Anthem of Flame - Hexbreaker Aria - "Go For The Eyes!" - Vicious Attack - Aggressive Refrain - Signet of Return

Hayda - Motivation

Spear 10+1 Motivation 11+1 Leadership 10+1+1

<Optional> - Chorus of Restoration - Energizing Chorus - Finale of Restoration - Barbed Spear - Maiming Spear - Aggressive Refrain - Signet of Return

The optional elite skill depends on the area. The most commonly run is Empathic Removal. Stunning Strike and Defensive Anthem are also viable, and maybe Cruel Spear (although "Finish Him!" usually makes this redundant, and Vicious is almost as good, but it does allow some bar compression.) There are other options such as Extend Conditions, Tease and others, but these require redistributing attribute points.

Quote:

Do you consider healing and MMing essential, or at least, very useful functions? If so, why not stick discord on heal/MM heroes and add significant offense at little cost?

Of course, and there is nothing wrong with sticking Discord on a bar that's already heavily specced into Death Magic. However, if I feel I already have more than enough damage, I'd be less inclined to run it, and with the present physical output, I think it unnecessary. I normally feel other skills such as Glimmer of Light, Divert Hexes, Life Sheath, etc, etc, to be more tasty. An example of a utility attack I like running on my caster heroes is Maelstrom on an ER elementalist - great disruption and respectable damage while run on an Ebon ward.

Also, it was my impression we were discussing Discord-way here, denoting teams where the main damage source is Discord. Apart from this I can't remember the last time I ran a team with more than one party member specced into Death.

To Jeydra: You want 13 CS on the assassins. 10+1 Dagger 11+1+1 Critical 10 Protection/Healing/Restoration/Command/Motivation/Wind Prayers/?. Dagger chain AI is... well, let's be nice and call it "peculiar". I cannot say for sure if your idea will work, best test it - I know that, for example, using Golden Phoenix Strike on Zenmai frequently causes her to freeze out completely.

AtomicMew · May 25, 2009, 07:20 AM // 07:20

Quote:

Of course, and there is nothing wrong with sticking Discord on a bar that's already heavily specced into Death Magic. However, if I feel I already have more than enough damage, I'd be less inclined to run it, and with the present physical output, I think it unnecessary. I normally feel other skills such as Glimmer of Light, Divert Hexes, Life Sheath, etc, etc, to be more tasty.

I'm sure I don't need to tell you this, but it's a trade-off ,and that's the farthest conclusion I think we can agree to, and will just have to agree to disagree from there.

You've already admitted that discord is an efficient damage skill, even as efficient as a buffed physical, so the opportunity cost of taking discord, for you, is at least a breakeven, especially if you can make up for the defense somewhere else. On my N/Rt healers, I see discord as being more enticing than any other possible elite (xinrae's being decent, but useless with smart PS or SY!). I shore up the defensive opportunity cost of taking discord by taking healing in the other 7 slots.

To some extent, it's personal preference. But certain people in this thread just need to understand that discord is efficient, and a strong reliable choice. It is not weak or noob or slow at all. Personally, I just find discord to be far more reliable source of damage.

Quote:

Apart from this I can't remember the last time I ran a team with more than one party member specced into Death.

I think it is a mistake to not run at least 2 MMs for general PvE.

Carinae · May 25, 2009, 07:44 AM // 07:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by traversc

It is NOT all about DPS. The argument is NOT about DPS.

The best defense is a good offense. Killing the mob quickly, is a function of DPS, and that makes a build with higher sustainable DPS better.

Quote:

Originally Posted by traversc

A discorder can provide other essential functions, like healing.

Sure he can. But so can other players/heroes, especially ones with the appropriate primary profession. Support isn't the bastion of Discord.

Quote:

Originally Posted by traversc

The logical conclusion of your rant is that something stupid like a team of orders + MoP nuker + 6x HB wars or even a team of 8x OoU MMs are the best teams possible, since they do the most DPS. I hope you can now see how absurd your argument is.

Nice strawman.

Obviously, that's what we are saying. Damn, you figured it out.

Quote:

Originally Posted by traversc

If not, let me repeat, it is NOT all about DPS. No one is arguing that a discorder can do more DPS than a physical. I can only assume you think someone is trying to make that argument.

Ok, we agree now that a physical can out damage a Discorder. Now to get you to see that a single physical can outdamage Discordway.

Quote:

Originally Posted by traversc

Secondly, I've said THREE TIMES now, that SY! is not a function of running physicalway. SY! is a PvE skill so heroes CANNOT use it. Discordway can run SY! just as well. The only damage buff a physical player misses out on when playing discordway is orders.

If you can run SY! on a caster as well as a physical player, then post your build. You'll be very popular, no sarcasm at all.

Physicals also miss out on AP/MoP/Barbs/GDW. Of course, that requires a second player....and that's what you should be playing.

How to Win at PvE

Step 1) Find a good human physical player who can run SY. Sin, War or Para. Friend/Guildmate/Alliancemate.

Step 2) Support that player with your necromancer character.

Step 3) Use heroes that further buff Player 1 and/or support the party.

MM
Orders
SoH
Dual Aegis
Dual PS+SB
Tons of hex and condition removal
Enchant Removal

Step 3) Win.

If you can get more than one human physical your party kills so fast you have a hard time seeing the screen through your tears.

Moloch Vein · May 25, 2009, 08:29 AM // 08:29

I'll give you the best SY bar for a Necromancer primary I have cooked.

Tactics 12 Soul Reaping 12+1+1

Air of Superiority - Soldier's Stance - "To The Limit!" - "Shields Up!" - "Save Yourselves!" - "For Great Justice!" - Ebon Battle Standard Of Honor - Protector's Defense

I've used it many times when unable to find a physical primary human to bring. You run that build with a spear. It's weaker than a physical, but it works, and it maintains SY! just as well as most bars.

Xenomortis · May 25, 2009, 10:05 AM // 10:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

I think you underestimate the power of 10 minions. If you could have 10 minions up all the time, you would deal a LOT more damage (a lot more than a fully buffed physical using attack skills in my experience anyway). You won't need SY either since the minions will be absorbing most of the damage. With three Necros in standard Discordway you can reasonably have twice that number of minions - 20 - and then how would you outdamage that?

What? 10 minions do not come close to the damage done by a single buffed physical. Unless you bring OoU and Bone fiends (which a Discord necro cannot do). You overestimate minions on that front. Either that, or you're bringing some very shit physical players.
20 minions may come a bit closer, but this damage is very spread out and unfocused and is not as useful as a buffed physical player attacking a single target and triggering MoP.
With Death Nova, the minions do more damage when they die, but this is still largely unfocused damage and is a tradeoff for the fact your minions have just died.

A minion army also doesn't negate the need (well, desire) for SY. Minions will not last very long against high-powered enemies and once they're gone you have nothing but the lowly specced support skills your Discord heroes have and if they're casting those to keep you alive, they're not killing.
SY will still alleviate a lot of pressure.

Quote:

Originally Posted by traversc

But certain people in this thread just need to understand that discord is efficient, and a strong reliable choice.

I don't think anybody has argued that. What they have argued, is that it isn't so wonderful and that there are stronger options available. Discord teams have their players locked into something quite specific.

Jeydra · May 25, 2009, 10:46 AM // 10:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carinae Dragonblood

How to Win at PvE

Step 1) Find a good human physical player who can run SY. Sin, War or Para. Friend/Guildmate/Alliancemate.

Step 2) Support that player with your necromancer character.

Step 3) Use heroes that further buff Player 1 and/or support the party.

MM
Orders
SoH
Dual Aegis
Dual PS+SB
Tons of hex and condition removal
Enchant Removal

Step 3) Win.

Can't run that with H/H. Suggest something?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

What? 10 minions do not come close to the damage done by a single buffed physical. Unless you bring OoU and Bone fiends (which a Discord necro cannot do). You overestimate minions on that front. Either that, or you're bringing some very shit physical players.
20 minions may come a bit closer, but this damage is very spread out and unfocused and is not as useful as a buffed physical player attacking a single target and triggering MoP.
With Death Nova, the minions do more damage when they die, but this is still largely unfocused damage and is a tradeoff for the fact your minions have just died.

A minion army also doesn't negate the need (well, desire) for SY. Minions will not last very long against high-powered enemies and once they're gone you have nothing but the lowly specced support skills your Discord heroes have and if they're casting those to keep you alive, they're not killing.
SY will still alleviate a lot of pressure.

No offense but what you write runs directly counter to my experience.

I find that when I have minions, it is only a matter of time before someone drops below 50% health when I can YMLAD -> AP -> Finish Him. And it comes pretty fast. With minions up (10+) I can reasonably expect someone to drop below 50% within the first five seconds of the fight. And it's more than one person. A single monster might drop below 50%, but a second might drop to 60%, and immediately after my killing the first foe everyone else just evaporates. That's what I've found a minion horde to do. It doesn't matter that the damage is spread out and unfocused; in fact it might even be possible to argue that having damage spread out is better because it's more easy AP kills, plus AoE food, plus more Ebon Vanguard Assassins on the battlefield.

As for minions dying to high-powered areas, I have this to say. I've done almost every possible H/H'able area with H/H. Where there are enough bodies to run minions, and where there aren't enough MMs to overpower my own MMs, I will always run minions. It doesn't matter if the mobs are the supercharged, supertough Stone Summit in Vloxen's HM or the even more hard-hitting (albeit without healing) Jotun in Frostmaw's HM. I will run minions. Minions do so much, they absorb damage and deal it and they have the unique ability to make all your subsequent fights easier. If the minions die before I wipe the enemy mob, then something has gone wrong - typically me missing AP.

Of course if the minions all die and the enemy has not wiped, then Discordway is pretty fragile (albeit not as fragile as the physicalway I tried, see below). But Discordway also has something else. If you have 20 minions on the battlefield and you count their numbers drop to 4, and the enemies aren't dying, then it is time to beat a retreat. While you are fleeing, you've got the minions (what's left of them anyway) to cover your fallback. Of those who can still chase you, you still have YMLAD! to stop him. After you've retreated, you can execute pulls and spike down people thanks to YMLAD cripple. I never really noticed how valuable this ability was until what happened in Selve - see below.

If you've got a concrete build to suggest that I can use, by all means, suggest it. Otherwise, I must stick to my personal experience.

Anyway ...

Physicalway vs. Discordway round 2
Battleground: Selve NM. I've done Slaver's over 10 times, so I know very much what my standard builds fare against the dungeon.

2x A/Mo bars given above (13 Crit 10 Dagger)
1x N/Rt Order of the Vampire + Pure was Li Ming
1x ER SoH + GDW smiter
1x Talon Silverwing
1x Devona
1x Mhenlo
1x Lina

vs. semi-standard Discordway

2x N/Rt healers with Discord
1x VoR Mesmer
1x E/A caller
1x Lo Sha
1x Cynn
1x Hertha
1x Mhenlo

Why semi-standard even though there are plenty of bodies in the dungeon? Main reason is just before the final fight at Selvetarm, where the long fight against Restless Dead + Crypt Wraiths etc kill all the minions without leaving any bodies to replenish.

The physicalway run did not begin on a good note. First run to the dungeon, I stopped on the bridge to open a chest and wound up bodyblocked by the Troll. Not good. Even though he can't kill me I can't outwand Troll Unguent either and had to /resign. Second try I got to the dungeon with no drama. Now one of the good things about Selve is that almost the first mob you fight is the hardest one in the entire dungeon. Even with semi-standard Discordway it's not unusual for me to lose a few people here (usually because I overexert and refuse to pull out, ending up fighting all the mobs in the cave in one go). On a particularly bad day I might even teamwipe. So I won't have to wait till the end of the dungeon to find I can't do it.

What happened? I don't know. The Stone Summit pressured us out. Why? Don't know. Could be Sandstorm. Blocks and antimelee. Mhenlo and Lina being bad. Liva saccing too much health. Insufficient party healing (if BotGD had no cooldown, we probably wouldn't have died). Too large enemy mobs. Or what? Don't know. Result is that the Stone Summit killed us a lot more than we killed them.

It's not that I didn't try either. After we suffered a few deaths - never fully teamwiped - I pulled back and tried pulling. Pulled out, pulled back in, but without YMLAD and the ability to spike we couldn't whittle down the mob. Neither could we hold out against them (the heroes and henchmen die so much faster compared to Discord builds). Wound up /resign'ing again.

I'm positive I could've done better with a 7-man Discord team. Maybe even 6. Either physicalway is simply inferior, or I am simply using the wrong teambuilds.

Moloch Vein · May 25, 2009, 12:36 PM // 12:36

Jeydra;

What you are doing right now is trying experimental setups (such as A/Mo with untested attack chains) combined with melee henchmen and comparing it to a tried-and-tested team build you've been using for a long time. I also know you're a very competent dungeon player.

For kicks I went to Selvetarm NM myself today to check out the Summit mob you had problems with. My team build consisted of 1xP (Empathic Removal Command), 1xN (MM/Divert Hexes) and 1xN (OoV/Pure, exactly as you used but I switched in Blood Ritual instead of SoLS), 1xR hench (Aidan, Barrage), both monks, and 1xW (Talon, Tactics). I myself went as Mark/AP, so I hadn't got an SY.

I won't lie and say it was extremely easy to get past the mob you were referring to, but I did, fairly fast, and without suffering a single death. I did not use Frozen Soil; I managed to overwhelm enemy healing capacity with Mark of Pain and score balls of kills this way. It was a fair bit slower than it would've been with six heroes and two players. Of course I run a different primary and a completely different player build, so this might not be saying too much, but the setup (R, W, P) is more what you would call "balanced" than an extremely front heavy 4-melee team.