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May 23, 2009, 06:01 PM // 18:01
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#1 | ||
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Jungle Guide
Join Date: Apr 2005
Profession: N/A
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Why discordway is great
This is a continuation on the discussion of discordway from another thread. Since it was off-topic in that thread, I thought I'd make an on-topic thread.
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In this case, you and Moloch are both wrong. Per your example of using 3 assassin DB heroes. If you cannot see why that is inferior to discordway in everyway, then there is no hope for you. 3x assassins can't even outdamage discordway, because first of all, discord is full caster range. Second of all, even if 3x assassin COULD outdamage discordway, it has nowhere NEAR the amount of heals/util/AoE to be an effective build. The question is NOT about DPS. It is about time efficiency and utility. Discord is almost ALWAYS more time efficient than any physical because it does the most damage in the time spent. To get up to the same level, a physical requires orders + IAS + attack skills, etc. Thus, discord is also bar compression (i.e. bar EFFICIENCY) which allows you to take whatever util you want. So to answer your question, ("why I talk about my particular variant which are non-specific to discordway?") discordway allows you to bring far more utils than you would be able to if you played physicalway. Let's say you bring 2 warrior heroes - that's already 14 hero bar slots that you've thrown down the drain compared to discordway for only just comparable DPS! If you also add an orders derv, that's another 7 slots wasted to do a little more DPS, except for a few party heals, there are no utils. (Considering warriors are melee, the DPS is probably actually less!) Last edited by AtomicMew; May 23, 2009 at 06:19 PM // 18:19.. |
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May 23, 2009, 06:52 PM // 18:52
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#2 |
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Lion's Arch Merchant
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: "Flame Shield On!"
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You forgot to mention that by the time the target dies the mob is likely to be spread out anyway. Taking away the negative aspect of the quick kill of discord. Even though, if you think that the mob won't spread out before you kill the target then delay the condition until you decide that in the next 3 seconds or so the mob will spread anyway.
I mainly H/H when I play general PvE so there's only 4 condition sources in my group; me, my curses discord hero, exploding minions and the Jagged Horrors. 1. My source is obviously the easiest to control. 2. Then my hero, he seems to wait until the target is being targeted for a enough seconds. 3. The jagged Horrors, can't really control those but I can see them coming and adept. 4. The last one is the exploding minions. Nothing you can do there, but they die after taking damage. Meaning a couple of seconds has passed already and the mob should have spread by now. It's by no means perfect, I have some control but not an absolute control. I learned to live with it. The worst case scenario, you killed your target so fast your MoP didn't live up to his potential, boo hoo. |
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May 23, 2009, 07:33 PM // 19:33
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#3 |
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Grotto Attendant
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Done.
Guild: [JUNK]
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Discordway is like wining at Special Olympics.
You have won, but that's just because everyone else around you was shit. (Also, imagine the bar compression that going from AL 60 to AL 100 is when dealing with REALLY bad players.) |
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May 23, 2009, 07:56 PM // 19:56
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#4 |
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Forge Runner
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Reactive Hexing Sucks
Guild: [Thay]
Profession: N/
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A caster requires an attack skill as well to achieve DPS. It's called Discord. Also this skills requires at least one and usually two other skills to make it deal any damage.
Orders is run on one character only. Every physical on the team will benefit from him. This character will not only bring an order, but other utility skills as well. No well built physical hero (or player) would disregard utility skills for the party. Telling us you throw 14 skills slots "down the drain" by using two W heroes is ridiculous. This doesn't mean I will generally bring melee heroes, because normally I find rangers/paragons vastly superior, precisely because snaring and movement isn't so vital for them and they do not need to move from enemy to enemy in the same fashion. A caster will in no way benefit from a Barbs/MoP player in the way of a physical character. (By the way, you're absolutely right, I haven't "invented" Mark/AP. I'm a newbie.) Last edited by Moloch Vein; May 23, 2009 at 08:03 PM // 20:03.. |
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May 23, 2009, 08:03 PM // 20:03
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#5 |
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Forge Runner
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Blighty
Guild: The Legion of the Blue Blade
Profession: R/Mo
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Discordway is a great little niche combo which works for the moment. It has only worked since they changed discord from 2s cast to 1s cast and will cease to work if they nerf Discord back to its original position (or, i guess, necros/soul reaping nerfs).
For the moment it is simply the most efficient hero skill to take to breeze through pve. |
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May 23, 2009, 08:25 PM // 20:25
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#6 |
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Lion's Arch Merchant
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: "Flame Shield On!"
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The problem with physical heroes is that they can't support my party (excluding paras), necros can. If I had a coordinated team, maybe even with just 1 friend and his heroes I wouldn't have ran discord spam, but I unfortunately stuck with either H/H or my newbie friend that can't be bothered with the more advanced stuff (He only has NF and have never finished it).
I know that are a lot of players with that exact problem and Discord Spam is for us. I don't need to maximize my MoP potential, but I do need to deal massive damage while staying alive without the cloud of death hovering above my head the whole time. Discord is by far the best H/H team composition I've experienced. I run 2 rangers and 1-2 monks or another warrior. 17 life stealing that an order necro allows on every attack isn't enough to compensate for Discord. I only have 2 sources of definite physical damage sources, meaning 34 damage every 2.4 seconds or so. Discord is ~100 every 3. Maybe if I had a para and a ranger, an order could outperform discord a little. The difference is that I lose Animate Shambling Horror and Putrid Bill for more healing. So I actually lose more damage after all. I hope that I'm wrong and that are better H/H team composition/s and team build/s for the heroes. I have to admit that Discord Spam is the best hero team build I've ran but I'm not sure if that's the best there is. Until I see something else better, not just words in the air, then I will be able to decide. So far Discord Spam is the undefeated champion. |
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May 23, 2009, 08:42 PM // 20:42
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#7 | ||||||||
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Forge Runner
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Inside
Guild: Fifteen Over Fifty [Rare]
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The support/utility aspect is assumed, because staying alive is part of a DPS build. (Very low DPS while dead) Quote:
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Above I listed all the support I have available in my actual build. That's what's actually deployed. No support indeed. Quote:
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The physical whackers are: Devona, Sword hench, Ranger, and of course YOU on a Sin, War or Para. If you are stuck on a caster primary, with no human-melee available to help, then Discord is a viable (but not awesome) option. But it doesn't out-damage Physway even with 1 human melee. |
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May 23, 2009, 10:20 PM // 22:20
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#8 |
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Guest
Join Date: Oct 2008
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Discordway ISN'T great. It's easy. There's a difference. Yea, it breezes through everything, but anyone with half a brain could make another team build that'll work just as well.
Ironically, I've had a very hard time even GETTING my heroes to use discord. Most of the time it's the henchmen doing the work, while my heroes run around making minions and death-nova..ing... stuff halfway across the compass. Discord isn't great, it's mediocre at best. Where it shines is "Hold control while pressing 123, wait 2 seconds, press 4", aka "Simplicity". There's no thought to it, aside from recognizing when your skills recharge and doing it again. In that aspect, it qualifies under the "Great" category. |
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May 23, 2009, 10:45 PM // 22:45
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#9 |
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Alcoholic From Yale
Join Date: Jul 2007
Guild: Strong Foreign Policy [sFp]
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Discord allows you to coolspike any non-boss target every 3 seconds.
Why you're all saying "it's not that great" is beyond me. Hex removal? You have a KD. It's the rawr-way of PvE...ridiculous spike damage with a fast recharge and overwhelming defense. You'd be hard pressed to find another hero build that works on such a scale without serious specialization. I'm a primary monk - vanquishing h/h is difficult because of calling targets and microing abilities. |
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May 23, 2009, 11:22 PM // 23:22
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#10 |
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Tea Powered
Join Date: May 2008
Location: UK
Profession: N/
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Discord is one target at a time. It may feel quick, seeing how quickly each single enemy drops, but remember that you're not touching the rest of them.
It works, it isn't bad and some people may find it very effective. I however, do not regard it as excellent. I am also firm in my belief that there are much better options available. |
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May 24, 2009, 12:12 AM // 00:12
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#11 | |
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Desert Nomad
Join Date: Apr 2007
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What prevents a discord build of running putrid explosion? Don't discord builds runs death nova? When I have 8 players, yes, so many more excellent options available. When I have 6 heroes, yes, so many more excellent options available. But with 3 heroes and 4 henchies you have a solid defensive build, capable of reducing the AI weakness to a minimum and killing - and killing though targets with spikes. Most, if not all, henchmen builds are bad or at least lack optimization. Half of your team having lackluster builds is quite a problem. Henchmen are just slightly better than the average PuGs. Heroes are better than average PuGs, but still far from having the flexibility of a human. Again this discussion is quite simple to solve - people just need to post a build with 3 heroes + 4 henchmen any primary profession can use to complete most of the game. Til a build that is better than discord, for any primary profession accompanied with 3 heroes and 4 henchmen and can be used as extensively, is posted these discussions wont go anywhere. |
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May 24, 2009, 12:24 AM // 00:24
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#12 | ||
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Tea Powered
Join Date: May 2008
Location: UK
Profession: N/
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Mark of Pain will work... ish. If you cast it on your main target, that target will probably be killed before you get much out of MoP and if it isn't, then you're doing it wrong. It is possible to cast it on an alternate target and switch to another target for Discord, but your henchmen physicals are less likely to attack it, leaving only the uncooperative minions. Putrid Explosion? That wastes a corpse that your MM/MB wanted. Putrid Bile is a possibility, but the damage is still rather insiginficant given it's a one time AoE damage spell. Death Nova on minions... well this isn't going to be killing much on its own and is likely to be one of your few sources of AoE damage. Another thing to note: If your heroes are casting their defensive spells, they aren't casting Discord and vice versa. That means they may not be doing what you want them to be doing when you want it, particularly if one of them has Death Nova. Quote:
An assassin may feel as though they can do better with a different build suitable for their profession. Et cetera. Discord teams are strong, but you can still do better with builds that depend on your class. |
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May 24, 2009, 12:33 AM // 00:33
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#13 |
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Jungle Guide
Join Date: Apr 2006
Profession: W/R
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i look at it this way if im going with someone who might not be up to snuff discord or sabway evene in hard mode is a nice fallback in case someone makes a mistake. but if im by myself i think i got way better builds to use and i tailor my builds to what char im using and where im going. to me discord and sabway are fallback builds when your not sure of the other person or persons going with you
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May 24, 2009, 02:31 AM // 02:31
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#14 | |||
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Forge Runner
Join Date: May 2008
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Physicalway vs. Discordway Battleground: Oola's Lab HM 2x Locust's Fury Sins 1x Order of the Vampire + MoP + Barbs Necro 1x Ether Renewal SoH GDW Elementalist 1x Lina 1x Mhenlo 1x Devona 1x Talon Silverwing vs. semi-standard Discordway 2x N/Rt Discord with Animate Shambling Horror + heals 1x VoR Mesmer 1x E/A AP caller 1x Mhenlo 1x Hertha 1x Cynn 1x Lo Sha Result: No contest, Discordway is simply superior. While the damage output from the 4 physicals was great, they also overaggroed a lot, died to Grenth's Fingers / Dervish attacks, and their DPS wasn't any better than Discordway once Discordway got minions up and running. Even within the dungeon proper where there were no bodies Discordway simply did better. The physical team took way too much damage, I found myself Infusing a lot without enough healing on my bar to cope with Infuse. And yet I had no choice, because party bars were always critical and the henchmen weren't helping (I swear with a full-out defensive ER bar I can outheal both Lina and Mhenlo combined). In the end I wound up resigning after like 2 mobs in the dungeon proper, and I took more casualties during the run to the dungeon as well. It could be that it's the first time I tried the bar so I didn't play well - I was definitely more focused on buffing than on healing / protting. Doesn't matter though. The difference between the two builds is so huge, I see no point changing. I'll grant I'm (slightly) impressed by the damage output of the build, but nowhere near convinced that it is superior. Of course it could also be that I simply have the wrong teambuild (4 melees? Even that sounds wrong and I've not played with physicals that much). So if anyone would like to propose another build to use, and preferably give me bars as well, I'll go ahead and try them. ********** I have this to share regarding the DPS output argument. Discord is maybe 30 DPS yes - but big deal. Rising Bile is 6 DPS at best and it's still good. Flare does more DPS than Rising Bile and it's still bad. You cannot compare the damage coming from a single skill. What's more, the main damage from Discordway doesn't come from Discord. Now I've just finished a Raisu Palace HM vanquish where we had: 1x Ranger with AP 1x Elementalist with AP 2x N/Rt healers with Animate Shambling Horror 1x N/Rt healer with Animate Bone Minions 1x N/Mo Minion Bomber 1x SS 1x VoR Although we started with (of course) less damage than standard physical teams, later in the vanquish we had all of 30++ minions running around. How do you propose to outdamage that? ******* Quote:
For easy areas: 1x N/Mo minion bomber 2x N/Rt healers with Animate Shambling Horror, Discord, Putrid Bile and Rotting Flesh 1x E/A AP caller 1x Mhenlo 1x Lo Sha 1x Cynn 1x Hertha For areas lacking corpses (Oola's Lab, Ooze Pit, etc) 2x N/Rt healers OR 2x RoJ Smiters 1x VoR Mesmer OR 1x UA Smiter 1x E/A AP caller 1x Mhenlo 1x Lo Sha 1x Cynn 1x Hertha For the really hard areas (Vloxen's, Frostmaw's, Duncan HM), builds are varied according the area, eg. with Vloxen's HM my last run had E/Mo Infuse, Minion Bomber, SS and VoR + the four standard henchmen; with Duncan HM my last run had E/Mo Infuse, SS, VoR, Lingering + the four standard henchmen. Long story short: my PvE teams operate in casterballs. Usually all heroes and all henchmen are casters. In the easier areas I do E/A caller, it kills a lot faster. In the harder areas I run E/Mo Infuse (which goes to show that it is the superior, more resilient build than E/A, but I digress). If I do run physicals for whatever reason I will use Zho + my own Splinter Barrage or BHA, but never melee characters. If anyone can post a build they think can compare with the ones I currently use, and want me to try it, by all means post them here. ******* Quote:
Last edited by Jeydra; May 24, 2009 at 02:34 AM // 02:34.. |
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May 24, 2009, 02:39 AM // 02:39
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#15 |
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Forge Runner
Join Date: May 2008
Location: East Anglia, UK
Guild: Order of [Thay]
Profession: N/
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I agree, Rick. I always give a mission/vanquish my best and if I either can't do it or can't be bothered doing it (It's usually just the frustration of it) I try it again with Discord and, well, it works...
I did Frostmaw's HM, first time with a friend, Discordway. The drakes weren't a problem and neither were the... The..--- Bat-like things that daze... I then did it with 4 players in a physical setup, and I think we took just as long. Discordway and Physical way are quite close to eachother in different respects.. Completely different team setups and hardly comparable. |
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May 24, 2009, 04:05 AM // 04:05
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#16 | |
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Grotto Attendant
Join Date: Apr 2007
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Haven't we been over this enough? Look. Discordway is effective enough, and it's damned easy. That's why it's popular. However, it is by no stretch of the imagination anywhere near as fast or robust as numerous other options. No amount of close-minded wishful thinking on your part is going to change that.
I contributed to the last thread being closed by arguing with idiots, so I'm going to stay out of this one entirely. However, I think this ought to be closed too. Now I'm going to quote upier of all people: Quote:
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May 24, 2009, 06:32 AM // 06:32
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#17 |
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Forge Runner
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Reactive Hexing Sucks
Guild: [Thay]
Profession: N/
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I was discussing the assassin heroes with Jeydra mainly because I was interested in the buff to Strength of Honor and if this could be made to work using mediocre heroes and henchmen (since that requires melee weapons). Since I haven't got a full-fitted elementalist I asked her.
We didn't really go into exact bar discussion; what did you bring, Jeydra? Parenthetically speaking I don't think bringing OoV and Barbs on the same character is such a great idea. I have always found bringing extra support skills on the Orders to be a better option. Mark of Pain is almost a wasted slot with no instant recharge skill. However I generally bring the curses myself. Last edited by Moloch Vein; May 24, 2009 at 06:47 AM // 06:47.. |
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May 24, 2009, 07:19 AM // 07:19
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#18 |
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Forge Runner
Join Date: May 2008
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Good point, after all Livia was casting Order of the Vampire most of the fight so no time for Barbs + MoP. What else though? More Blood Magic? Blood doesn't have many strong spells ... I'd guess Order of the Vampire, Order of Pain (do heroes know how to stack both Orders?), Blood Renewal, Aegis, Blood Ritual (maybe), Strip Enchant, Well of Blood, Res?
I remember I gave the Assassins this: Golden Fox Strike / Wild Strike / Death Blossom / Way of Perfection / Locust's Fury / Wild Blow / Critical Eye / Res Signet I was going to give them Frenzy (trusting my own Prot Spirit spam), but then they never used the stance and we wiped a few times to the Wind Riders outside Rata Sum, so I gave up. On hindsight I realize Way of Perfection is utterly useless and I should probably have replaced with Critical Defenses. Critical Eye is probably a waste as well, not to mention Wild Blow (why did I have Wild Blow + Wild Strike?), but I don't know what else to use. I vaguely remember trying Dagger Assassin heroes from ages way back and they got confused with multiple Dagger attacks, so I didn't give them standard Moebius / Death Blossom + SY (<--- Lol). I'm guessing Critical Defenses would've done a lot more for them to not die to the Rockbeetles; still it won't help in HoS against the Flame Djinns and Flowstones. I don't have much experience with Assassin heroes though (or Blood Magic heroes), so if you can see major improvements write them and I'll try it on tomorrow's Zaishen quests. Last edited by Jeydra; May 24, 2009 at 07:22 AM // 07:22.. |
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May 24, 2009, 07:28 AM // 07:28
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#19 | |
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Krytan Explorer
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: F͊̕҉̡͍̘͍̜̬̲̪u͒͗̍̽ͭ&
Guild: F͊̕҉̡͍̘͍̜̬̲̪u͒͗̍̽ͭ&
Profession: W/Mo
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May 24, 2009, 05:59 PM // 17:59
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#20 |
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Desert Nomad
Join Date: Apr 2007
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I've no qualms that physicals can be superior in several areas and higher armor its a strength of its own.
But with the current melee AI and the current henchmen builds, its hard enough to give them the damage boosters they need + the anti conditions and hex removal ("browns" and "purples" kill physical) they require to operate. With 6 heroes things change. Still, the defense of the necros is quite useful for HM as is the the ability to hard spike (you can bind the discord to a key), deal damage through blocking (Rigor mortis is great but there isn't that much else) and hold on attrition war due to Soul Reaping. The key is that a player on its own doesn't have that much customization of the party, the melee AI is bad (human melee players can fight their own targets and generally generate enough damage to kill own their own as long as the target isn't protected, AI melee won't do that) and physical characters while powerful and high armored are frail to conditions and hexes). PvE is Special Olympics anyway... and if Discordway is so bad, then actually it's more challenging then playing a more powerful build? Last edited by Improvavel; May 24, 2009 at 06:03 PM // 18:03.. |
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