Curse

AtomicMew · Jun 09, 2009, 04:56 PM // 16:56

So I'm actually going to try this crap out. I only have ~15 VQs remaining, so I'd like to make sure I'm "doing it right" before I start. This is prophecies, so hench will probably be 2x healer + 2x melee.

Me:
[assassin's promise][technobabble][Finish Him!][ebon vanguard assassin support][mark of pain][barbs][rigor mortis][rend enchantments]
Commagon:
[soldier's fury][go for the eyes!][never surrender!][stand your ground!][spear of lightning][merciless spear][spear of redemption][signet of return]
Motigon:
[soldier's fury][ballad of restoration][chorus of restoration][energizing chorus][spear of lightning][disrupting spear][spear of redemption][signet of return]
MM Support:
[Divert Hexes][Protective Spirit][Aegis][Foul Feast][Animate Bone Horror][Animate Shambling Horror][Death Nova][signet of lost souls]

Basically, the idea behind soldier's fury is that, with no orders things like stunning strike would be ridiculous.

Moloch Vein · Jun 09, 2009, 06:20 PM // 18:20

Hum, where to begin.

First of all, I have been trying to compile some decent hero bars, it's a work in progress really, but I did state I'd try to make a "general" configuration. Problem is that a "general" physway doesn't really exist, since it needs to adapt to areas.

Anyway http://pvx.wikia.com/wiki/User:Moloc..._-_PvE_Markway

As for the bars.

The elite is optional for every hero bar. Spear of Lightning is not ideal. Vicious Attack is a must in conjunction with Go for the Eyes. One spammable damage skill on the paragons is good - Spear of Redemption is good, or Holy Spear for undead. One of my problems is I rarely have the space for that spam attack on the P bars.

You can safely run some radiants on the paragons in order to make them fix Aggressive Refrain better. They still have 80 base armor.

Disrupting Spear is good but you have limited conditions on the bars.

Ballad of Restoration is pretty bad. Too long recharge. Finale of Restoration is godly on the motivation paragon. If you run 2P you don't want to miss that skill.

Considering that you run only 1N hero I would strongly recommend dualing it into Orders for at least Dark [email protected]

It really depends a lot on which heroes are available. In NF it's pretty much a nonbrainer to bring 1P + 2N because you do have a P hero, for example. I generally bring only 1P hero myself if I do H/H, but the synergy-shouting is juicy, so it sometimes makes me a little sad. This is one reason I did attempt an N/P MB because it would provide more shout triggers.

I can probably come up with a lot of different things but that'll do for now.

Evil Eye · Jun 09, 2009, 06:56 PM // 18:56

Necro + barbs/mark of pain
3 HB warriors/paragons with motivation stuff

AtomicMew · Jun 09, 2009, 07:59 PM // 19:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moloch Vein

Hum, where to begin.

First of all, I have been trying to compile some decent hero bars, it's a work in progress really, but I did state I'd try to make a "general" configuration. Problem is that a "general" physway doesn't really exist, since it needs to adapt to areas.

Anyway http://pvx.wikia.com/wiki/User:Moloc..._-_PvE_Markway

As for the bars.

The elite is optional for every hero bar. Spear of Lightning is not ideal. Vicious Attack is a must in conjunction with Go for the Eyes. One spammable damage skill on the paragons is good - Spear of Redemption is good, or Holy Spear for undead. One of my problems is I rarely have the space for that spam attack on the P bars.

You can safely run some radiants on the paragons in order to make them fix Aggressive Refrain better. They still have 80 base armor.

Disrupting Spear is good but you have limited conditions on the bars.

Ballad of Restoration is pretty bad. Too long recharge. Finale of Restoration is godly on the motivation paragon. If you run 2P you don't want to miss that skill.

Considering that you run only 1N hero I would strongly recommend dualing it into Orders for at least Dark [email protected]

It really depends a lot on which heroes are available. In NF it's pretty much a nonbrainer to bring 1P + 2N because you do have a P hero, for example. I generally bring only 1P hero myself if I do H/H, but the synergy-shouting is juicy, so it sometimes makes me a little sad. This is one reason I did attempt an N/P MB because it would provide more shout triggers.

I can probably come up with a lot of different things but that'll do for now.

Taking into account your suggestions, here are the reworked bars.

[assassin's promise][technobabble][Finish Him!][ebon vanguard assassin support][mark of pain][barbs][rigor mortis][rend enchantments]
Commagon:
[Defensive Anthem][aggressive refrain][go for the eyes!][never surrender!][stand your ground!][merciless spear][hexbreaker aria][signet of return]
Motigon:
[Aggressive Refrain][chorus of restoration][Finale of restoration][energizing chorus][spear of redemption][Vicious attack][Song of purification][signet of return]
MM Support:
[Divert Hexes][Protective Spirit][Foul Feast][Animate Bone Horror][Animate Shambling Horror][Death Nova][dark fury][masochism]

A few Qs:
-You say that Vicious Attack is essential, but will heroes even use it properly with GftE?
-Is soldier's fury a terrible option? I like the fact that it's slightly faster attack and somewhat does away with the need for orders. Paragon elites just don't seem that good to me. Defensive Anthem can be replaced with Aegis and Purification is kind of meh.
-What would you recommend for 6 man areas? For henchies, would 2x healers be required, or could I do 1 healer 1 melee?

The Riven · Jun 09, 2009, 08:16 PM // 20:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by traversc

A few Qs:
-You say that Vicious Attack is essential, but will heroes even use it properly with GftE?
-Is soldier's fury a terrible option? I like the fact that it's slightly faster attack and somewhat does away with the need for orders. Paragon elites just don't seem that good to me. Defensive Anthem can be replaced with Aegis and Purification is kind of meh.
-What would you recommend for 6 man areas? For henchies, would 2x healers be required, or could I do 1 healer 1 melee?

ill try to answer these as best as i can, im not moloch but i do know paragons.

Vicious Attack inflicts a deep wound, i cant stress how useful this is. heros seem to be fine with it.

Soldiers is basically an inferior use of an elite slot, i wont go into details but wasting an elite on what amounts to 7% ias... not good.

Aegis is a enchant and as such can be stripped.

6 man areas i normally use a paragon hero and just 1 monk, its phys plus a little healing..or attack, again it all depends on areas.

Carboplatin · Jun 09, 2009, 08:16 PM // 20:16

Defensive anthem is a waste of an elite, it ends on attack skill, which i assume you plan on doing in a physical team.

Carinae · Jun 09, 2009, 08:23 PM // 20:23

I'd recommend reading this: http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10254869

No lead physical, no SY, no Orders. I'm not saying it can't be made to work, but it's definately a different class of physway, based around MoP not Orders.

I wouldn't think you'd need 2x healer hench with your prot MM. Alternatively, maybe run an Orders-MM, which I've never even considered, replacing the minions with ABM and the Prot skills with OoP and Dark Bond. Not sure that would work though as it would stretch attributes to the limit as well as energy.

Xenomortis · Jun 09, 2009, 08:27 PM // 20:27

I rarely notice the deep wound effect from Vicious Attack and I find it hard to squeeze GftE on para bars. It is an energy based attack though, and I think you should try to have one of those available.

With regards to their elites:
Soldier's Fury feels unnecessary. The heroes are reasonable enough with Aggressive Refrain and it's kept up in combat. The adrenaline gain isn't really worth it either.
I don't know how well heroes will chain Defensive Anthem with Aegis, but it's worth a shot I think.
I definitly like Empathic Removal - it's useful for hex heavy areas and where you're limited in party size.

I've also been somewhat dubious as to the value of Never Surrender, but I don't know what to suggest to replace it with. I have little experience toying with paragon bars.

The 6 man Prophecies areas are annoying. In almost all of them you can only bring one monk henchmen when you would often like to bring two and the rangers have Kindle Arrows. If you frequently have plenty of minions, it might be worth replacing one of the para heroes with an ER ele or something to that effect (a healer/protter of some sort). If you feel it affects your Barbs/MoP triggers too much, make sure to give him a spear.

Edit: Wow - I was a really long time writing this.

The Riven · Jun 09, 2009, 08:31 PM // 20:31

Instead of an orders MM a MB with a few RT wep spells works very well, ive never liked most orders as the duration is short while the sac is high, OoV on the other hand is a worthwhile skill though it does sacrifice an elite slot.

Moloch Vein · Jun 09, 2009, 08:45 PM // 20:45

The sadness about Order of the Vampire is that it ends on other N enchantment. This nerf really screws with the skill. Not only does it mean you can't bring Dark Fury - it also means if your MB is kind enough to slap Death Nova on you, that means 30 seconds of no life stealing.

Despite this, Order of the Vampire is incredibly strong as a party heal in a physical team. I can't stress enough how powerful it is. The other part is that being life stealing it comes as a separate package cutting straight through stuff like Shielding Hands, Shield of Absorption, Stoneflesh et al. This is otherwise a weakness of Barbs, and a high-level Stoneflesh can more or less negate even Mark. That's also a reason I like slotting Chilblains on a hero, even at 0 spec.

This is one of the reasons that I normally don't run Death Nova. If the hero handles Mark of Fury reasonably well (and he does), this can to a certain degree replace Dark Fury, and it's a lot less energy-intense.

One thing to consider is that if you run "straight MM" hero you will benefit a load from EBSOH.

"Go for the eyes" is a staple skill on a paragon if not simply because it's a 4-adren shout that is still somewhat spammable. The shout triggers alone make the skill worth it in battle. Chorus of Restoration is similar. The only real reason to slot TPIY! (and it's actually a damn good reason) is because it's a no-recharge 4-adrenaline that gives the paragon infinite energy and provides incessant shout triggers.

Heroes use Vicious decently. It's also important to remember that fleeing enemies lead to automatic criticals, and guess which player bar induces the most scatter in the entire game...

Carinae · Jun 09, 2009, 08:50 PM // 20:50

If you can make a build without necessitating Dark Fury, then OoV becomes attractive.

EDIT: Damn, Moloch beat me to it. There's a wasp flying around my room right now, I blame him for the delay.

Moloch Vein · Jun 09, 2009, 08:57 PM // 20:57

Another thing to point out is that a hero bar bringing both OoP and DF has to dedicate to those two skills; it doesn't matter what class you bring, and I'd probably suggest using Cultist's Fervor in that case. It's not a hero bar you generally want to bring if you run with henchmen.

The Riven · Jun 09, 2009, 09:30 PM // 21:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carinae Dragonblood

EDIT: Damn, Moloch beat me to it. There's a wasp flying around my room right now, I blame him for the delay.

On a side note while staying slightly on topic...

I think it was moloch that had this problem the other week, as i suggested to him, releasing a nest of African Killer Hornets into the room will soon sort out any wasp/bee related troubles you may be having, though admittedly there are a few drawbacks.

_Nihilist_ · Jun 09, 2009, 09:55 PM // 21:55

I have always preferred the use of OoV above OoP+DF. While OoV cannot be infinitely maintained due to cast time and duration (even with an enchant mod, which you should be using) Moloch is correct that is an extremely powerful group-heal for Physical teams.

Gigashadow · Jun 09, 2009, 10:12 PM // 22:12

I don't like Go for the Eyes! because base armor-respecting damage is so low in hard mode (it isn't affected by Barbs, SoH, bonus damage, etc.), so critting isn't giving you anywhere near as much as in normal mode. Although for an assassin it has other uses.

The Riven · Jun 09, 2009, 10:30 PM // 22:30

As has been pointed out already GTFE is used in conjunction with Vicious Attack.

Most paragon bars will have at most 2 attacks while relying on auto attacks to build adren, due to the usefulness of applying a deep wound to all fleeing foes if hit with vicious it would be a mistake NOT to use GTFE.

Xenomortis · Jun 09, 2009, 10:41 PM // 22:41

Hit on fleeing foes is auto-crit. GFTE isn't a necessity in that case.
GFTE does however affect minions, though the value of that is disputable.

The player bar traversc posted features Finish Him - that provides Deep Wound, but only as a finishing spike.
I however prefer YMLAD over FH, as it provides Knockdown (and can be used as a finisher if required - which is rare). With MoP, I find the mobs don't scatter as much as they do with other AoE skills, but I do notice the called target has a tendancy to run away, causing problems for the paras and player if they try to pursue. YMLAD usually prevents that.

AtomicMew · Jun 09, 2009, 11:11 PM // 23:11

So basically, I'm hearing a lot of conflicting opinions.

Xenomortis · Jun 09, 2009, 11:18 PM // 23:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by traversc

So basically, I'm hearing a lot of conflicting opinions.

Yes, but from what I remember; the same was true in an old Discord thread when I last looked in it.
Fair enough, that was a while ago.

People always have their own versions of stuff, some more optimal than others. We're not going to provide you a perfect build because frankly, we don't have one.

MisterB · Jun 10, 2009, 12:06 AM // 00:06

Nevermind. Thanks for the correction. That's what I get for believing what I read on wiki.