Curse

upier · May 22, 2009, 10:53 AM // 10:53

I was looking over at MV's hero bomber build and it hit me that I don't remember when was the last time we actually took the time to look at minions. The basic problem of course is that a party has 8 slots. Which means, by bringing a minion guy - you are not bringing something else!
So the question is - do minions actually deserve a place in a party?
And if they do - in what kind of a party?

So let's look at some of the basic issues.

1. Death Magic
If one wants to run minions, one needs to invest into Death Magic (and SR of course). The problem of course is that Death is pretty darn bad. You have your minions (which we are looking into now) and you have Discord. And the best thing about Discord - is that heroes do not fail with it. It's not really good - it's just not bad.
So if you want to run minions - you've invested 3/4 of your attribute points into two lines that don't offer much. So, what good is unlimited energy if you have nothing to use it on?

2. The minion AI
If you are bringing minions as damage dealers (through Order + damage ward) or as a Wall, you are still limited by the minion AI. And let's be honest - that's not really good. If you get lucky, the results will be good. If you do not get lucky - your minions won't do anything.
The same issue happens when you are bringing minions as a wall. The point of a wall would be to go in first and take the beating. Anyone who has played with a bomber knows that isn't the normal operating procedure of hero. It's not uncommon to either sit around waiting for the minions to catch up and then try to send them in first - or they arrive once half the battle is over.

3. Human vs AI
The problem of not having enough skills can be remedied on a human by bringing PvE skills. The hero does not get this free out of jail card. So that means we need to split the minions when played by a human or a hero.
The problem is how current GW is created. In GW - physicals are the damage dealers and casters are meant to support. But with the introduction of PvE - that has changed slightly. So, a human minion master - will probably be trying to maximize his damage output. Whereas a hero minion "master" - is trapped in the supportive role and that will influence his selection of skills.

3.1 Human player
If you are running minions, that means you are not running something else. You will probably look into Fiends, Horrors, Order and the Ebon Standard of Honor. While the damage is certainly going to be present - you need to ask yourself - could yo do better?
It's probably going to be hard to compete with an AP-MoP necro.

3.2 AI
The AI necro is caught into the support role. That means his selection of his additional skill and his secondary will reflect that.
But to support a party - it's VITAL to understand HOW! For instance, if one is running around with casters - buffing the teams physical abilities is a waste! So we need to look at the at the hero bomber in a physical and a caster team.

3.2.1 Physical team
The point of an AI minion master is to bring a wall. If you are running physicals - what is the point of that wall? I mean SY! is up! The wall loses it's meaning.
What serves it's purpose is having unlimited energy from SR. This means that the AI is good for cleaning the party. Hex removal, condition removal - all superb options! But not running minions does not mean you won't have unlimited energy. SR still triggers like mad - so why not instead of bringing the wall, bring something else?

3.2.2 Caster team
Casters need the extra protection. So having the wall is a good option. The problem is that the casters do not really need the supportive buffs that a minion necro has to offer. There is no real need for hex/condition removal - so what are you going to waste half the guys bar for? Why not just throw 2 more Aegises and PSs on the other party member skillbars and you've pretty much achieved the function of a wall, and thus gaining a party slot!

4. Necro itself
We are dealing with a squishy. Based on how the guy is defined - the guy is a supportive character. And given how poorly the AI is - why not waste this guys slot on a guy that comes with an armour level of almost 100? Since the guys WILL mess up - this means less work for the guys that are designed to keep the party alive. And if that is the case - the party can focus more on offence! Which means - wining faster!

I feel these are some basic points that should serve as the basis for our discussion.
Are we looking at minions with bias? Does the fact that a corpse exists means that the best thing that can done with it already died?

lewis91 · May 22, 2009, 11:59 AM // 11:59

Quote:

So the question is - do minions actually deserve a place in a party?

IMO, yes. If you lure a group into yours flagged somewhere else, they act as great body blockers. And die very quickly, which can trigger death nova spikes quite nicely.

I don't liek to use minions as damage deals in a way of keeping them alive for as long as possible, because theyre attacking speed is very slow.

Nodakim · May 22, 2009, 12:15 PM // 12:15

Ward+An Order skill+Barbs+Mark Of Pain=Death Death Death Death
And Death for a Necro means win,because you benefit from it,either way.
On one side you get explosive growth and on the other side you got Death Nova.And in the middle you get that combination in the first sentence...

Moloch Vein · May 22, 2009, 12:24 PM // 12:24

I believe it's a mistake to look on SY! as an invulnerability button. Sure, many times it is, but unlimited armor isn't going to do you any good at all against Feast of Corruption, or Energy Surge, or <insert skill here>.

It's been my experience after trying several configurations that the minions normally serve their function by making enemies concentrate enough on them to alleviate some pressure from the party. That E-burn that just hit that poor bone minion would probably have hurt if it got to you. Also while it is true that SR definitely triggers without a MM or MB, there's a pretty big difference here... if you bring an MM, SR triggers while you're losing. It's a second wind option. Yes, as long as you're trashing everything in your path in five seconds, there's no real advantage (there is a minor advantage, however, because it will make energy returns more reliable.)

There's a selection of utility skills present in GW that require little or no spec; those are the first I look for when selecting an elite and other filling.

Johny bravo · May 22, 2009, 12:32 PM // 12:32

Wow I really don't think you understand the necro role in a party or the whole concept of a minion master. First of all you forgot to mention barbs which, when combined with 10 minions will bring anything down very quickly. Throw on Mark of pain and now you have AoE damage (although that will break aggro). You also forgot Death nova which spread poison to surounding foes when a minion die and bleeding from the jagged horrors created via Jagged bones. The Minion master is the sole reason Sabway and discordway are as fast as they are as the minions provide a everlasting pool of energy for all the characters allowing them to spam at will.

As for waiting for the minions to catch up all you need to do is disable death nova between battles so that the MM keep up if you are using a hero.

As for the wall you just can't overlook the pressure the minions relieve from the party monks by absorbing many time the first wave of attacks, which in most cases is the worst.

Lastly, as far as the AI necro and secondary the prot skills you can add to the bar can and will save you many times. Not only that why waste 2 skill slots and a secondary on 2 other characters when one will suffice. If, as you say the minion master has a lot of down time to be casting other skills what better person to be spamming PS and SB as they have a extremely large and renewable source of energy.

As for the Death magic line it is an extremely strong line offering conditions, damage both direct and AOE through Death nova & putrid and rising bile.

I think you need to either play a necro a little or re-evaluate this whole post as it has missed many points and some are just clearly wrong.

upier · May 22, 2009, 01:10 PM // 13:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by lewis91

IMO, yes. If you lure a group into yours flagged somewhere else, they act as great body blockers. And die very quickly, which can trigger death nova spikes quite nicely.

I don't like to use minions as damage deals in a way of keeping them alive for as long as possible, because their attacking speed is very slow.

I am guessing this would be when playing with casters.
Because when you run physicals - just make sure you don't aggro half the map and then run in and start spamming SY/TNtF.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nodakim

Ward+An Order skill+Barbs+Mark Of Pain=Death Death Death Death
And Death for a Necro means win,because you benefit from it,either way.
On one side you get explosive growth and on the other side you got Death Nova.And in the middle you get that combination in the first sentence...

That's going to be a combination of a human AP-MoP guy and a human MM.
And the AP-MoP would stick around because it's really good.
And instead of the MM - how about a Hundred Blades warrior?
At least that way you don't need to rely on pure dumb luck for the minions to go after the target you want, but rather you are certain that you will get the most you can out of the combo you are using.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moloch Vein

I believe it's a mistake to look on SY! as an invulnerability button. Sure, many times it is, but unlimited armor isn't going to do you any good at all against Feast of Corruption, or Energy Surge, or <insert skill here>.

It's been my experience after trying several configurations that the minions normally serve their function by making enemies concentrate enough on them to alleviate some pressure from the party. That E-burn that just hit that poor bone minion would probably have hurt if it got to you. Also while it is true that SR definitely triggers without a MM or MB, there's a pretty big difference here... if you bring an MM, SR triggers while you're losing. It's a second wind option. Yes, as long as you're trashing everything in your path in five seconds, there's no real advantage (there is a minor advantage, however, because it will make energy returns more reliable.)

There's a selection of utility skills present in GW that require little or no spec; those are the first I look for when selecting an elite and other filling.

Well you do have TNtF. And ES/FoC are not only quite slow recharging but also not that insanely common in the game. Still, that's what ... 2 PwKs (or it's counterparts) and the damage is negated?
Most damage you will face is going to be armour-non-ignoring and for that - running guys with 200AL is enough to remove the need for a wall.

As for elite - yeah, like I said, utility is going to rule here. Still, not only will it depend on the area but also on the team composition. Still, why not just run curses with the same elite if one wants a necro? Or/and an orders guy?

Necro is going to be a very strong contender when considering a character as an addition to the party. But a minion-necro? I always look at other options first before resorting to this guy.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johny bravo

Wow I really don't think you understand the necro role in a party or the whole concept of a minion master. First of all you forgot to mention barbs which, when combined with 10 minions will bring anything down very quickly. Throw on Mark of pain and now you have AoE damage (although that will break aggro). You also forgot Death nova which spread poison to surounding foes when a minion die and bleeding from the jagged horrors created via Jagged bones. The Minion master is the sole reason Sabway and discordway are as fast as they are as the minions provide a everlasting pool of energy for all the characters allowing them to spam at will.

As for waiting for the minions to catch up all you need to do is disable death nova between battles so that the MM keep up if you are using a hero.

As for the wall you just can't overlook the pressure the minions relieve from the party monks by absorbing many time the first wave of attacks, which in most cases is the worst.

Lastly, as far as the AI necro and secondary the prot skills you can add to the bar can and will save you many times. Not only that why waste 2 skill slots and a secondary on 2 other characters when one will suffice. If, as you say the minion master has a lot of down time to be casting other skills what better person to be spamming PS and SB as they have a extremely large and renewable source of energy.

As for the Death magic line it is an extremely strong line offering conditions, damage both direct and AOE through Death nova & putrid and rising bile.

I think you need to either play a necro a little or re-evaluate this whole post as it has missed many points and some are just clearly wrong.

Discord-way and Sabway would fit more into the easy category than into the fast one. And like I said - if Barbs and MoP do trigger - it's going to be a blast. But with the minion AI - why would you rely on that? Why not just make certain that it triggers by bringing something that does not rely on luck?

And yes, I am aware of the unlimited energy that the necro has. But do you really want to waste it on Death? Why not Orders + a physical heavy team? Throw in AP-MoP and it's going to be insane.
Minions just seem to be the weakest option out of the bunch WHEN you start building a more advanced team. Personally, minions just never seem to be stronger than in the starting areas where they allow you to triple your party size!

Moloch Vein · May 22, 2009, 01:24 PM // 13:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

Well you do have TNtF. And ES/FoC are not only quite slow recharging but also not that insanely common in the game. Still, that's what ... 2 PwKs (or it's counterparts) and the damage is negated?
Most damage you will face is going to be armour-non-ignoring and for that - running guys with 200AL is enough to remove the need for a wall.

Oh, true. But, there are hellholes in the game, and the two skills I mentioned are just an example. You have Vampiric Gaze, Dark Pact, Splinter Weapon (god I love facing Simian HM ritualists spamming that), attack skill bonus damages, Overload, Wastrel's, Obsidian Flame, Empathy, Spiteful Spirit...

I have to take objection to some of your notions about hexes and conditions as well... these are going to affect casters too, sometimes more. The only conditions that are specifically anti-melee are weakness and blind (cripple is usually worse on melee, but it isn't very fun for a kiter either.) Try, for example, fighting a EotN Stone Summit mob with a caster team and then tell me you don't want hex removal.

I don't use the term "minion wall", because it's almost never a "wall", I think of them as "decoys". Also note that when SY! is up, everyone in the party except the minions will have 160+ armor.

Shursh · May 22, 2009, 01:37 PM // 13:37

Moloch sums it up pretty well.

my opinion - if you are the only necro, and the group is heavy on physicals, i wouldn't run a MM.

if there is at least 1 other necro (who would obviously run curses for barbs, MOP, etc.) i would run a MM, whether it be on a physical-heavy team or a team of casters.

it's interesting you brought this up, because there have been several times lately that i've argued over the merits of bringing a MM (due to the new z-quests). PUGs often request "just run MM" after i ping my AP-MoP, but the few times i actually gave in I ran something like:

Assassin's Promise
Animate Bone Minions
Shambling Horror
Death Nova
Mindbender
Ebon Sin
(some random other stuff)

this worked somewhat well due to nearly constant half-cast time for the minion creation since AP would recharge mindbender.

but when there wasn't another player in the group who buffed the minions (via barbs, MoP, wards, etc.), this build was far inferior to the usual AP-MoP.

like paragons, necro's have their strength in numbers so if you are the only one on your team AP-MoP is best. If there are more, you can be safe in branching out to the other necro lines like death and (gasp!) blood.

Ratson Itamar · May 22, 2009, 01:50 PM // 13:50

I will try to give some of my insight, it may come out as bashing but it's not my goal at all.

To the OP:
1. I agree with you, Death Magic sucks, that's why I like using a MB over a MM in most cases. A MB doesn't have to invest as much in Death Magic as much as a MM. As far as elites go, you don't have to choose an elite from the death line, as you said yourself a MB/MM invest points in SR as well. Which makes it perfect for Icy Veins + Putrid Bile combo. Honestly, I like that combo way more than Discord, to bad heroes don't use it as well (from my personal experience).

2. Minions have bad AI, even worse than the heroes'. That's why CTRL + T is so crucial. The minions will follow your lead, might even change targets. Just noticed it today while vanquishing, so it may be just dumb luck. I think that you can wait for you MB for a couple of seconds, in many cases you need to lure anyway.

3. A MM is a supportive role, human or hero. Bringing skills that amplify your minions damage output are just an added bonus, I've never brought a MM just for the damage from the minions.

3.1. Frankly it seems like your look on MMs is wrong. A MM doesn't need to compete with a MoP Nuker for damage, he's there to support that exact damage, not exceed it in anyway.

3.2. I seriously didn't get your point here. At all.

3.2.1. Look at Moloch's post.

3.2.2. Why casters don't need hex/condition removal skills? That's a bit absurd. About putting Aegis and the likes on different casters sounds nice but you waste a lot attribute points on these players. In most cases, those points could have been invested in better ways. So you may "save" a slot but you also diminish other players' potential, not to mention limiting their second professions.

4. I hate melee heroes' AI. Slow, dumb and annoying. (The only difference between them and minions, is that I actually want the minions to die).

To Johny bravo:
Jagged Bones is bad. If you want to know why search in this forum, it's been explained a dozen times. As I've found out, disabling Death Nova may be nice for advancing faster but when you reach a mob and enable it again, the hero is going to waste a lot, if not all, of his time casting it while he should have been casting other spells.

upier · May 22, 2009, 02:48 PM // 14:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moloch Vein

Oh, true. But, there are hellholes in the game, and the two skills I mentioned are just an example. You have Vampiric Gaze, Dark Pact, Splinter Weapon (god I love facing Simian HM ritualists spamming that), attack skill bonus damages, Overload, Wastrel's, Obsidian Flame, Empathy, Spiteful Spirit...

I have to take objection to some of your notions about hexes and conditions as well... these are going to affect casters too, sometimes more. The only conditions that are specifically anti-melee are weakness and blind (cripple is usually worse on melee, but it isn't very fun for a kiter either.) Try, for example, fighting a EotN Stone Summit mob with a caster team and then tell me you don't want hex removal.

I do understand that there are places where one really wants hex/condition removal. But just as the case with massive armour ignoring damage - hex stacking/condition stacking isn't so predominately insane that you'd want to pretty much devote a character to it.
Plus, even when you do - it's utility so most of the skills will work insanely well with a minimal investment and also on other characters!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moloch Vein

I don't use the term "minion wall", because it's almost never a "wall", I think of them as "decoys". Also note that when SY! is up, everyone in the party except the minions will have 160+ armor.

Of course, decoys would be a much better term. I am just used to the wall.
Still, the question stands - what guys (if even!) would want to dedicate a character to providing the decoys when the damage is going to be reduced so massively.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ratson Itamar

3.1. Frankly it seems like your look on MMs is wrong. A MM doesn't need to compete with a MoP Nuker for damage, he's there to support that exact damage, not exceed it in anyway.

3.2. I seriously didn't get your point here. At all.

Regarding 3.1 - The competition in question was the competition for the party slot. If you have one player - I'd put him on AP Curses. If you have more players - then then guy competes with other options. And given the stupidity of the minion AI - I'm inclined to give that position to someone who will be able to provide the damage on a less random scale.
Regarding 3.2 - It was just a bit of an intro.

To summarize a bit - for a physical team, I am very much against a minion guy. He provides a buffer that is really not needed.
For caster teams on the other hand - the wall is good. Still, outside of those few occasions that were mentioned - the most obvious candidates to fill up the rest of the bar are going to end up being stuff like Aegis and PS. And then - if you end up with Aegis chains, is it really going to be worth bringing all the decoys.
Minions kinda end up being the utility that took over the whole build. And in an 8 man party where you can have stuff like monks and paragons it's a bit iffy.

Xenomortis · May 22, 2009, 02:53 PM // 14:53

Hmmm.

A human MM cannot compete with an AP-MoP necro. If say, you're running with several humans and two are necromancers though, a human OoU necro is certainly a strong option.

Again, if you're running with Save Yourselves, the need for a minion "wall" is often reduced. However, there is a lot of stuff out there that will not be affected by SY and minions act as very attractive alternative targets for the enemy AI.
Having the first initial nukes (and at times, the most devastating ones) go to your minions instead of you before you've had a chance to build up adrenaline for SY will take a lot of pressure of your healers.

A real issue the OP did point out, was the spec required for running a MM. You need very high Death Magic and Soul Reaping. This leaves very little room for anything else. You can however, easily fit another 4 skills on your bar, so you need to look for unlinked skills (or skills that require a very low spec).
There are some skills that will do quite nicely.

Another issue (an AI one), is that hero MMs spend far too much time with Death Nova, though this issue is covered in another thread Moloch posted, so I won't go too much into that.
The OP however, did comment that hero MMs are never around when you want them to be, largely due to them casting Death Nova too much outside of battle. Minions are also unaffected by [Charge], which a lot of warrior henchmen bring. This issue does kind of negate the points I raised above, but if you're patient...

Besides, having up to 10 physical attackers running round isn't a bad thing. Granted, it's very rarely going to be 10 (especially in HM), but any amount of expendable targets to alleviate some of the damage you take is never bad.

And what if I'm H/H on my necro? Unless I run an odd N/W with SY (and I'd prefer AP-MoP), I won't benefit from this massive damage reduction. Having 10 undead pets to take those early nukes means my team can take out half the mob before any real damage is done (and by then, no more damage is likely to come).

Shadowmere · May 22, 2009, 05:11 PM // 17:11

1) Not sure what you've got against death magic but the line seems pretty solid to me; it's the only line that deals with minions and still has decent direct/indirect damage options to boot (you mentioned Discord but Putrid Bile, Rising Bile, and to a lesser extent Deathly Chill are decent as well).

2) With the minion AI, yes they are the most limited of the AI available to us however you seem to forget that we're still fighting easily exploitable AI.

In the case of a minion "wall" or bomber we exploit the enemy AI in that they will naturally target the low armor/health/level minions first saving the party from the damage as well as letting Death Nova trigger reliably.

And in the case of an offensive OoU MM, yes the damage dealt is more or less random but each minion is still hitting for 25 or more dmg per hit, that's pretty heavy pressure on a mob with 10 minions attacking, and also take into account that minion AI DOES prioritize targets based on what you're wanding and suddenly you've got 5+ minions hitting the same target and that damage adds up very fast.

And the main problem with waiting around for Hero MM's or more to the point Hero Minion Bombers is Death Nova, they want to apply it to each and every minion every time you stop the group this means they very quickly fall behind. Best solution I've found is to disable it between mobs or manually flag the hero to the group. Quite honestly it's the best and worst thing about hero minion bombers, they can easily target and hit minions with death nova however they also spam it constantly slowing themselves down to a crawl. I agree this slowness is a definite mark against bringing a Bomber.

3) I'm not sure why this is an issue, it's based on the limitations of both Human (interface) and AI; Humans unlike AI are smart enough to effectively use skills like Order of Undeath or Aura of the Lich whereas Humans can't monitor and target minions like the AI to use Death Nova, this means that Heroes are going to be far more effective in a Minion Bomber role (which is by nature more supportive than pure offense) and Humans are going to be far more effective at a Minion Master role which (at least in my mind) is more offensive. Add to that that PvE skills available to Humans (namley [Ebon Battle Standard of Honor]) and the damage potential of a Minion Master goes up a fair bit.

3.1) Perhaps we should look at how the AP-MoP build works here, Mark of Pain and Barbs, the main damage dealing skills in the build require an outside element to trigger their superior damage. That element being physical damage, to trigger this you need other party members to supply that physical damage (you can also carry a caster spear but you're not going to kill anything with that alone). So you have to use a party slot for a physical damage dealer, this means a warrior, sin, derv, ranger, para, or minion master.

In this case the minion master actually has a pretty big edge over the others; the MM has at max 10 minions at their command, if the AP-MoP and MM work together the AP-MoP will be calling targets that the MM will wand thus sending the majority of the minions at the hexed target. Most of the time this means at least half the minions are attacking the hexed target and while each minion has a slow attack rate when 5+ minions are hitting the same target this equals out to about 3 or more attacks per second, only a Locust's Fury sin can come close to that attack speed. So with one party slot you can bring someone who will provide lots of decoy targets for the AI to focus on instead of your party as well as an attack speed that will trigger MoP a lot faster than any one physical attacker.

3.2.1) I agree here, in a physical team the advantages of a MB are going to be lost, the physical damage dealt by minions isn't going to make much difference to an AP-MoP necro and if any of the physicals are human (and thus have "SY!"/"TNTF!") you won't need the damage absorbing abilities of the MB as much either, but I still wouldn't discount it.

3.2.2) I think you miss the point, a MB can achieve it's desired function in about half a skill bar, that leaves you open to other options, and what better person to have extra support skills to throw around than the guy with soul reaping and only half a skill bar full? A MB is more of a support role anyways imo, it'll deal some nice damage+condition pressure but the biggest draw of it for me has always been it's use of low lvl minions, minions that are gonna get attacked first and save your team from those hits.

4) I don't follow...being a physical with high armor =/= winning faster. A necro using minions is going to essentially be 10 physicals in one, 10 renewable tanks that let you actually benefit from their death. These 10 physicals will also trigger MoP/Barbs faster than the 1 physical you would've used that party slot on otherwise. Practically speaking if you're using a necro it's more worth 1 party slot to bring another necro to synergize than bring 3 or more physicals to achieve the same effect. (I'm not discounting the abilities of physicals, just saying if you're looking at party size and efficacy a MB will synergize a lot better with an AP-MoP necro than another random physical)

Xenomortis · May 22, 2009, 05:24 PM // 17:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shadowmere

1) Not sure what you've got against death magic but the line seems pretty solid to me; it's the only line that deals with minions and still has decent direct/indirect damage options to boot (you mentioned Discord but Putrid Bile, Rising Bile, and to a lesser extent Deathly Chill are decent as well).

A lot of the "damage" options in death magic are either unpredictable, sporadic armour ignoring damage that isn't reliable or strong enough to bring (due to it's conditional, unpredictable nature and long recharges) over support options, or crap cold damage.

Shadowmere · May 22, 2009, 05:30 PM // 17:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

A lot of the "damage" options in death magic are either unpredictable, sporadic armour ignoring damage that isn't reliable or strong enough to bring (due to it's conditional, unpredictable nature and long recharges) over support options, or crap cold damage.

Ah yeah, I was thinking of a more PvP aspect with those actually (my bad that was completely irrelevant) where non-armor ignoring dmg and degen isn't too bad.

Carinae · May 22, 2009, 09:48 PM // 21:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

3.1 Human player
If you are running minions, that means you are not running something else. You will probably look into Fiends, Horrors, Order and the Ebon Standard of Honor. While the damage is certainly going to be present - you need to ask yourself - could yo do better?
It's probably going to be hard to compete with an AP-MoP necro.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

A human MM cannot compete with an AP-MoP necro.

I very much disagree with this. A human MM is, at least, very competitive with AP/MoP, if not significantly outdamaging it.

Don't let that burst of yellow numbers when a MoP bomb goes off confuse you. MoP pumps out a ton of damage.....sometimes, and always in bursts. If enemies don't clump up, or if they flee from the AoE, etc... Then AP/MoP goes back to outputting as much damage as Lina.

I think you guys have some misconception that that burst of yellow numbers is CONSTANTLY occurring. It's not. The advantage of AP/MoP is that it can output a large amount of damage in a focused, targeted manner. That's a great advantage, and not to be forgotten.

A human MM though, is pumping out ~160 DPS (sometimes much more) CONSTANTLY, independent of the number of enemies you are facing....for the entire duration of the battle. Versus 10 enemies, 160 DPS. Versus 1 ennemy, 160 DPS.

Remember, your attention is often focused on the enemy that YOU find to be a threat. While you are looking around, evaluating, etc, minions are racking up yellow numbers all over the place....in the corner of the screen, behind you, out of sight to the left/right. What minions DON'T do is give you a burst of numbers at the very place your attention is focused.

AP/MoP does.

It's called perceptual bias.

Xenomortis · May 22, 2009, 09:59 PM // 21:59

Minions don't give me a burst of numbers when I want it. Mark of Pain usually does.
I'm willing to accept your argument, but a lot of the minion damage can be covered by enemy heals (although PvE mob monks are rarely that powerful) and the damage from OoU is spread about. Your minions are also very much prone to an early death.
A minion army therefore helps keep the mobs under heavy pressure, making them much more vulnerable the massive spike you should have ready.

So perhaps yes, a human OoU necro can outdamage an AP-MoP nuker, but because that damage is not focused and is not in the form of spike damage, it will largely go "unnoticed" and the effective kill count cannot compete.
I appreciate that an OoU MM can deal large amounts of damage, hence why I enjoy running it at times.

I don't feel as though I've explained myself well enough here, but meh.

Jaigoda · May 23, 2009, 02:27 AM // 02:27

Spikes are no better than spread-out damage in PvE. Otherwise you could make an argument than SS, MoP, and all AoE spells are 'spread out' and thus are not as useful. The fact is, it doesn't matter where the damage goes, it's all the same in PvE. And since you have to kill everyone in the mob, that damage will be seen once you get to that specific foe. Yes, an AP/MoP necro can do lots of damage, but if you add an MM into another slot you'll do a lot more damage. Also, minions might be prone to death, but they give you energy back to make another one right after it, so nothing is lost.

Also, MBombers can pump out tons of damage quite easily because the combined fact you've got 9/10 minions attacking, and whenever one dies you do 100 AoE damage. Plus, they all trigger stuff like Barbs, EBSoH, and other stuff, multiplying their DPS.

The only time I can see not bringing an MM is if you have a perma-SY with no AP/MoP. Even if there is an SY spammer and you do have someone with Barbs/MoP, the fact you've got 10 minis whacking on someone makes it more than worth it solely for damage. Also, considering I almost solely use H/H, I'm never going to see SY unless I'm on my 'Sin or Para. Basically, MM's provide an excellent balance between damage, defense, and support (and actually doing all roles well), which very few builds are actually able to accomplish.

snaek · May 23, 2009, 02:59 AM // 02:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

1. Death Magic

standard 12/10/8 split works just fine for mm builds

Quote:

2. The minion AI

while i agree that the ai is not the greatest, i disagree that it is unpredictable. an experienced mm will have a good enough idea what his minions will do. sure he will not have complete control over them, but he still has the knowledge.

Quote:

3. Human vs AI

i don't see this as an mm-specific problem; this can be applied to builds of many different types.

Quote:

3.1 Human player

damage is maximized yes...defense disappears? no, you still get the defensive benefits of a typical mm to a degree (if not the full degree).

Quote:

3.2 AI

if your running some sort of gimmick...then you go full out gimmick, not half-assed gimmick. mm's tend to find their spots on more balanced teams.

Quote:

4. Necro itself

it sounds to me like your saying a party should consist of frontline and backline, ie. no midline.

Chthon · May 23, 2009, 03:20 AM // 03:20

1. Wait... what?! A post by upier in the necro forum that's not a troll? And is even somewhat thought-provoking? Who are you and what have you done with upier?

2. In terms of damage, a human OoU+EBSoH MM is going to do at least as much DPS as an AP+MoP build. Probably more. Where AP+MoP really beats out MM is in a couple of tasks that are particularly important for H+H: (1) Putting EB in the right place at the right time, putting Technobabble in the right place at the right time, spiking the right monster at the right time, etc. and (2) continuing to deal enough damage to turn things around when the battle starts to go badly. For a H+H team, I'd usually run AP+MoP; for a several-human team, I consider either build equally worthwhile.

3. OP seriously underestimates the value of minions as meat shields. The amount of damage they soak up really very phenomenal. Additionally, there's a definite, if hard to quantify, benefit to your party members' effectiveness if they don't come under fire at all thanks to the minions. Everyone does a much better job at what they're supposed to do if they don't even need to kite because the minions are taking the hits they'd otherwise need to kite from.

Also, for those playing with ER eles, bone minions + heavy prot - hilarity. There's little funnier than an entire HM mob balled up on a bone minion they can't kill because Vekk decided to hit it with PS and SB.

4. Especially in terms of H+H, where you're limited to poor physicals, the minions help you get a lot out of curses. I wouldn't run AP+MoP without minions in a H+H team.

_Nihilist_ · May 23, 2009, 03:24 AM // 03:24

Minion Bombers do tend to lag behind in their zeal to Death Nova anything and everything Party-friendly, so you disable it when you aren't fighting and they should keep up.

Minions are:

Priority Targets - low level, low armor, low HP
Physical Damage Dealers - go go MoP + Barbs
Body Blockers - enemy AI tends to attack/sling spells at anything that gets in the way
Easily Re-animated - Oh look, a Charr just died! Oh look, twin Bone Minions!
Energy Batteries - SR is omgwtfawesomesauce

We don't want them why?

Except for the few areas where you face foes with Verata's Aura, or where enemies don't leave corpses, Minions give you advantages almost every single time. Sometimes it's defense, sometimes it's offense, sometimes it's utility, but every time, it's another weapon in your arsenal. Another 10 max, really.

My vote goes for taking Minions. Too much positive, not enough negative to go without them.