Curse

Kaida the Heartless · Sep 28, 2009, 01:41 AM // 01:41

Because everything else got boring, I bring a gift to all of you! Most of you have probably discovered this already, since it is only a tiny adjustment to the standard Hero MM bar.

12+1 Soul Reaping
12+4 Death Magic

"Finish Him!"
Signet of Lost Souls
Pain Inverter
Mindbender
Feast for the Dead
Animate Bone Minions
Death Nova
Aura of the Lich [E]

Template:
OAVDITxGTxkVVylrlKVVBoByBA

Equipment:
20/20 Death Offhand and 20/20 Death Wand
or
20/20 Death Offhand and +20%/+5E Martial
Survivors/Tormentors Insiginias with a Bloodstained Insignia and Vita Runes

The build is simple. Egde the group you want to aggro and let the minions grab the initial aggro. Activate Mindbender and Death Nova your entire army on it's way in (easy with 1-.25 second casts). Raise minions when appropriate. Don't forget to ping for your heroes to attack as well, if your using them.

Specific uses for skills:
"Finish Him!"
Use on a target with low HP. Follow up with an ABM.

Pain Inverter
Use on a target that does great AoE damage. Follow with an ABM shortly after when they nuke themselves.

Mindbender
Makes everything faster. Most noticable with ABM and Death Nova.

Feast for the Dead
Useful when you need a quick 105 damage on a low enemy. Also great to heal your army if they take an AoE hit before they are ready to inflict Death Novas. Further useful to heal your army inbetween battles or during travel.

Aura of the Lich [E]
Great for getting up a quick army during or after battles. Can be swapped for other elites however I found this one the most effective.

There ya have it. Often, I find myself killing the entire melee portion of the mob within the first 3 seconds, leaving the casters to roast in hexes. If they have no melee, there is often little left of the mob for the rest of the party to deal with.

Enjoy!

Dzjudz · Sep 28, 2009, 03:01 AM // 03:01

I'd suggest swapping Feast for the Dead with Masochism and equipping a bloodstained insignia on one armor piece.

samerkablamer · Sep 28, 2009, 04:08 AM // 04:08

Death nova --> FftD is a great combo

IronSheik · Sep 28, 2009, 05:30 AM // 05:30

OAhjUwGc4QIVlMUB5iVVbhwlXMA

wat.

Kaida the Heartless · Sep 28, 2009, 07:13 AM // 07:13

Silly me. I did forget the bloodstained didn't I?

Dzjudz · Sep 28, 2009, 10:27 AM // 10:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by samerkablamer

Death nova --> FftD is a great combo

10 DPS while also healing other death nova'd minions isn't terribly useful. Maybe you'd get lucky once in a while to spike a target at low health but I'd say the added damage from Masochism is more useful.

Xenomortis · Sep 28, 2009, 10:35 AM // 10:35

There are two reasons why Death Nova is generally absent from human MM bars:

1. It's an absolute bore to cast and finding the right minions to cast it on will soon tear away at your sanity. Heroes however, manage it fine.

2. Order of Undeath is superior and Death Nova is basically a waste on such bars.

I've no doubt it'll work and I won't say you haven't tried it.
I will say it's inferior to other options for a human though. We run MB bars on heroes because MM roles are something a hero can do with reasonable efficiency and Death Nova means they can throw out some damage. Humans have other, more effective damage options that heroes are unreliable with (namely Order of Undeath).

Kaida the Heartless · Sep 30, 2009, 06:07 AM // 06:07

Feast for the Dead is used (primarily) in situations where your horde was hit by a massive AoE too early. It sacrifices one minion in favor of allowing the rest to reach thier target. Masochism would be a better choice, if it weren't for this happening so often.

So, I did some testing with an OoU build for comparison purposes. The OoU build surpasses this build in terms of raw, continuous damage. However, that build was slightly more difficult to run, and required a much more intensive energy management style (i.e. more involved). The build I have proposed is easier to run, and less energy intensive (i.e. somewhat boring). There is one distinctive difference that I've noticed:

The OoU build was able to kill faster, but the party observed more pressure. The bomber alleviated much of the pressure on the party at the cost of a slightly slower clearing time. In summation: the bomber is more reliable but slower, where the OoU is faster, but more risky.

IronSheik · Sep 30, 2009, 09:16 AM // 09:16

How would the OoU be more risky if you are killing faster? Faster you kill, less pressure enemies put out since they're...dead

And as long as you know how to use SolS effectively and aren't bring redundant skills on an MM bar (Finish Him) Oou is very easy to manage even with EBSoH and Bone fiends/Vampirics.

SolS gives 8-10 energy every 8 seconds, plus the free energy you get from SR, very easy to manage.

Xenomortis · Sep 30, 2009, 10:17 AM // 10:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by IronSheik

How would the OoU be more risky if you are killing faster? Faster you kill, less pressure enemies put out since they're...dead

And as long as you know how to use SolS effectively and aren't bring redundant skills on an MM bar (Finish Him) Oou is very easy to manage even with EBSoH and Bone fiends/Vampirics.

You're sacrificing a lot of your health with OoU, I appreciate the feeling that you're under more pressure when your health is frequently low.
And SoLS isn't great e-management for a MM. Consume Corpse is better, particularly with OoU.

I've no idea what OoU build you were running, but at the moment I tend to run:

12+1+3 Death, 12+1 Soul Reaping, Minion Master's Insignia with Bloodstained on headpiece.
[OABCUsxESFVQJDewW4tYuoYA]
OoU, Bone Fiend, Vamp Horror, BotM, Masochism, EBSoC, EBSoH, Consume Corpse
Before the Masochism change, I ran Foul Feast and Infuse Condition, losing Maso and EBSoC.

Energy-wise, you shouldn't have any problems. You'll need to be more aware than other necro builds, but it's easy enough with a bit of experience or practice.

With a good human, a bomber build is no more reliable than an OoU build.

zwei2stein · Sep 30, 2009, 10:29 AM // 10:29

Until death nova gets redone to be more like Dwaynas Sorrow (AOE enchant), playing human MB is not going to be effective.

IronSheik · Sep 30, 2009, 07:56 PM // 19:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

You're sacrificing a lot of your health with OoU, I appreciate the feeling that you're under more pressure when your health is frequently low.
And SoLS isn't great e-management for a MM. Consume Corpse is better, particularly with OoU.

I've no idea what OoU build you were running, but at the moment I tend to run:

You sacrifice 2% per hit I believe? For +16-19 additional damage per hit.

This damage also increases damage from your vampirics, and therefore health gain from them. So as long as you have even just 3 to your 8 fiends, your health will balance out provided you also aren't being trained.

And I can't agree for general PvE CC is better than SolS, it would be especially bad on an MM. It takes your bodies; don't see why you would bring it just because of that. Puts you in a semi-random spot. Which can include right next to a PBAoE ele/Warrior.

And let's compare the Health/Energy Gain.

SolS at 13 SR Gives 88 Health, 9 Energy. 15 SR gives 100 Health, 10 Energy.

CC at 16 Death Magic Gives 105 Health, 11 Energy. 18 DM 115 Health, 13 Energy.

SolS requires some tabbing to take advantage of spamming on recharge, but CC does have the no recharge ability, but as I said, takes bodies and teleports you, so it is only safe after battle when SR most likely recharged your energy in the first place. CC is also a spell, so if you're under masochism you will gain even less health due to the health loss from it.

And the build I used I posted almost right after OP.

EDIT: Zelg was right, fixed atts, had DM on the brain

zelgadissan · Sep 30, 2009, 08:09 PM // 20:09

Signet of Lost Souls is in Soul Reaping, not Death Magic.

I'd still take it over Consume though.

Xenomortis · Sep 30, 2009, 08:36 PM // 20:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by IronSheik

This damage also increases damage from your vampirics, and therefore health gain from them. So as long as you have even just 3 to your 8 fiends, your health will balance out provided you also aren't being trained.

And I can't agree for general PvE CC is better than SolS, it would be especially bad on an MM. It takes your bodies; don't see why you would bring it just because of that. Puts you in a semi-random spot. Which can include right next to a PBAoE ele/Warrior.

I didn't say the sacrifice was a problem, I said it can feel like a problem when you first run the build.

I was at first dubious with CC over SoLS. However, I noticed that without CC (with SoLS instead), I would leave corpses that I would be unable to use for a minion. Unless the area is really corpse sparse, I've never had much of a corpse problem.
I run with Minion Master's and the teleportation effect has never had a bad consequence for me. If I'm taken into the enemies face, he's usually bashing away on a minion and he'll ignore me with my 75+ armour and I can easily walk away.

Kaida the Heartless · Oct 01, 2009, 07:17 AM // 07:17

OoU isnt putting out much damage when your fiends are getting killed because they ran into melee range; we all know the minion AI isn't that great. And I did state that OoU was better for continuous damage, but the fact that I can burst down thier entire melee squad, or sometimes the entire group, instantly releives an equal amount of pressure. Also, let's not forget that Finish him is on my bar for instant kills on low targets, as well as Pain Inverter, for instant kills on high AoE targets. These are things that your bar doesn't have.

In situations where I lose (most of) my fiends due to any reason, the OoU build becomes weak. Killing the minions in a bomber build is only beneficial. Besides, with Mindbender, it's really easy to get Death Nova on every minion, assuming you play with the camera scrolled all the way out. Tab-Spacing my way through Slavers on hard mode was pretty nice.

Its Undecided · Oct 15, 2009, 03:01 PM // 15:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaida the Heartless

Feast for the Dead is used (primarily) in situations where your horde was hit by a massive AoE too early. It sacrifices one minion in favor of allowing the rest to reach thier target. Masochism would be a better choice, if it weren't for this happening so often.

I would keep FftD and instead remove Death Nova for masochism

MrTev · Oct 15, 2009, 03:48 PM // 15:48

Also, SoLS is, of course, a signet.
You have to have energy for CC.

Thus the net gain is more for SoLS.

FoxBat · Oct 15, 2009, 04:28 PM // 16:28

Fiends aren't as good tanks because they are higher level ranged attackers at a high cost. Bone minions come in large numbers, are always grabbing attention on the frontline, and are cheap to replace, it's that simple.

Also, stop being bad, novaing isn't that hard.

Xenomortis · Oct 15, 2009, 07:26 PM // 19:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrTev

Also, SoLS is, of course, a signet.
You have to have energy for CC.

Thus the net gain is more for SoLS.

Wrong.

A MM of any kind should have 16 in Death. This will give 21 energy, meaning a net return of 11.
To match that, you would require 16 in SR for SoLS (which is not recommended). Not only that, but SoLS can only be used every 8 seconds, CC can be recast instantly if a corpse is nearby.
The difference in energy gain is increased when you use Masochism.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaida the Heartless

OoU isnt putting out much damage when your fiends are getting killed because they ran into melee range

There are two reasons why an OoU MM should be running a two type minion army (usually Fiends and Vamps).
The melee minions will split from the ranged ones and typically the more expendable vamp horrors die first, leaving the 5-7 fiends to attack for a good load of damage.
The second reason is that it's easier on energy than running 10 or 11 Fiends.

Quote:

Originally Posted by FoxBat

Fiends aren't as good tanks because they are higher level ranged attackers at a high cost.

Unless you're running Masochism, Fiends will always have a lower level compared to players and less armour. They'll draw fire, serving as distractions and with BotM spam, they'll last long enough for you to replace them.
Under heavy fire, they won't last long but if you're team is any good you should have the enemy wasted quick enough for you to replenish lost minions.

Ivan Darklord · Oct 18, 2009, 08:22 PM // 20:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

Wrong.

A MM of any kind should have 16 in Death. This will give 21 energy, meaning a net return of 11.
To match that, you would require 16 in SR for SoLS (which is not recommended). Not only that, but SoLS can only be used every 8 seconds, CC can be recast instantly if a corpse is nearby.
The difference in energy gain is increased when you use Masochism.

There are two reasons why an OoU MM should be running a two type minion army (usually Fiends and Vamps).
The melee minions will split from the ranged ones and typically the more expendable vamp horrors die first, leaving the 5-7 fiends to attack for a good load of damage.
The second reason is that it's easier on energy than running 10 or 11 Fiends.

My Thoughts exactly

Fun Build there Kaida, thanks for sharing! Though bombing has always been a tough noogy for me

...and as you said, some builds are just boring and this one adds a bit more challenge hehe