Curse

AtomicMew · Nov 21, 2009, 06:55 AM // 06:55

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If you wish to run MoP properly with "Physical", then the hench are generally 2x Warrior or one of the ranger

Melee hench are trash. By the time they walk up to the target, it is either dead or scattering, neither of which are advantageous for MoP nuking.

For this reason, physway H/H is very subpar for prophecies, which doesn't have access to ranged physicals. Or at least in the past it was (aiden is currently physical in prophecies, although his bar is pretty junk).

For general play, I used to play a pretty standard MoP caller. Works strongly for both physway and discord:
Ap-MoP-YMLAD-FH-EVAS-Enfeeble-Insidious-Barbs

For hexway (modified sabway with VoR hero):
SS-Insidious-Barbs-SoLS-Enfeebling Blood-Technobabble-EVAS-necrosis

HigherMinion · Nov 21, 2009, 09:10 AM // 09:10

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Originally Posted by Traversc

For general play, I used to play a pretty standard MoP caller. Works strongly for both physway and discord:
Ap-MoP-YMLAD-FH-EVAS-Enfeeble-Insidious-Barbs

I don't think that is standard; though it's what they would run in FoWSC.
Insidious is ugly, it's like a wannabe SS. I would rather some damage negation for the whole party than a self-heal on a caster.

Enfeeble should always be Enfeebling blood in PvE, also.

The Standard bar should always contain Rigor Mortis, however, and/or Reckless Haste for fast recharging Aegis.

AtomicMew · Nov 21, 2009, 08:57 PM // 20:57

RH is really really bad. It's definitely no aegis, not even close. Unless you can expect things to bunch up in adjacent, which if that's the case, they should all die instantly from MoP anyway. So RH is essentially redundant. Also, even if it were useful in it's own right, it is also redundant with aegis, which can be put on a hero.

RM is a great optional for physway, but it's simply not required for most areas. Throwing rend enchantments on a hero has similar effects in most cases. Most areas don't have nearly enough blocking for you to worry much about it.

IP is a very, very strong option. IP alone can take out a target. Throw it on an off target and watch it die. It's also the most useful option if AP happens to get diverted. The healing you get also shouldn't be underrated, because it lets your team spend less time healing and more time killing.

HigherMinion · Nov 22, 2009, 11:59 AM // 11:59

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Originally Posted by traversc

IP is a very, very strong option. IP alone can take out a target. Throw it on an off target and watch it die. It's also the most useful option if AP happens to get diverted. The healing you get also shouldn't be underrated, because it lets your team spend less time healing and more time killing.

That is total BS. Insidious Parasite does bugger all against a target, they might activate it two or three times, but it doesn't synergise with MoP. And you have barbs already for taking out a target at speed. It is a waste of a slot and an excuse to carry a Self-heal.

Do-Not-Take Self-heals.

Also, in almost EVERY area of PvE, you will encounter SOMETHING that blocks, and they will be in a mob generally of lots of things that block. Thus it's common sense to keep Rigor firmly on your bar.

Reckless haste is spammable, if you recognise your elite. You cast it on the target not only for it's lovely blocking features, but as a fish hex, so it's less likely AP is removed.

AtomicMew · Nov 22, 2009, 06:47 PM // 18:47

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Originally Posted by HigherMinion

That is total BS. Insidious Parasite does bugger all against a target, they might activate it two or three times, but it doesn't synergise with MoP. And you have barbs already for taking out a target at speed. It is a waste of a slot and an excuse to carry a Self-heal.

2-3 times? How do you figure? Are you assuming that you throw it on a target in MoP range? Of course you don't do that.

IP alone can do nearly 800 damage. In the hypothetical situation when AP gets removed, it is therefore the best use of your optional slot (It's possible to use barbs and IP on an off-target at the same time, you know.)

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Reckless haste is spammable, if you recognise your elite. You cast it on the target not only for it's lovely blocking features, but as a fish hex, so it's less likely AP is removed.

If you're looking for a fish hex, take something with a decent radius. Either meekness or suffering. None of the effects are particularly useful. But at any rate, if you're looking for shutdown combined with fish hex, it isn't reckless haste.

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Also, in almost EVERY area of PvE, you will encounter SOMETHING that blocks, and they will be in a mob generally of lots of things that block. Thus it's common sense to keep Rigor firmly on your bar.

Most areas have OCCASIONAL block, which rend and wild throw can easily deal with.

The only times you need RM is when you're dealing with multiple healers with enchantment blocking, which is not even the situation you are describing. (Incidentally, that's another situation in which IP will be a strong optional.) Stance blocking is easily dealt with by wildthrow. You'd need to face multiple foes with multiple block stances to need RM on the basis of stance blocking. There are thus only a handful of realistic situations:

1) Incidental enchantment blocking - rend
2) Incidental stance blocking - wildthrow -OR- put IP on it and focus on other targets
3) Multiple foes with stance blocking - wild throw
4) Multiple enchantment blocking - take RM -OR- don't and just power through it.

Again, I recognize that it will be useful in some areas, but it's not true in the very large general case, as long as you play smart.

maxxfury · Nov 22, 2009, 10:17 PM // 22:17

The thing with Rigor is that its an "all in one solution" for blocking, and also has its downside of the long recharge removed by AP.

Covers enchantment blocking and stance blocking, both stances and enchantments can be put back up once removed. (example multipleflame shielders chaining aegis)

It also saves slots on the team by negating the need for stance removals, which generally arent so hot and can be awkward to fit onto many bars, and the need for so many enchant removals.

Its by no means 100% needed in all areas, but its imo the best choice for the job when needed.

IronSheik · Nov 23, 2009, 12:50 AM // 00:50

Rigor sucks imo, only a few areas are blocks really annoying. White mantles and afflicted come to mind..but they die to a flea bite anyway.

Tenebrae · Nov 23, 2009, 10:24 AM // 10:24

Very very few areas and very few foes , IP is better or suffering if you search for an AoE fast hex , thats it .

Chthon · Nov 23, 2009, 05:44 PM // 17:44

1. I view Rigor as a purely situational skill. Depending on the zone it can be vital, convenient, or a waste of space. Accordingly it goes on my bar only sometimes.

2. Insidious Parasite is a total waste on a decent team (even a decent H+H team). It's bad for all the reasons reactive hexes are bad in general. (Note: That link is really worth reading for anyone who doesn't understand why this is so, but possesses the slightest capacity to learn.)

3. Suffering causes a whopping 2 degen. This effect is totally worthless. It's awful. Really, really, amazingly, profoundly awful. Reckless Haste is infinitely better because it does something useful. If, for some reason, you feel you really need the larger AoE radius, use Meekness. Even Ulcerous Lungs/Vocal Minority are potentially much better.

AtomicMew · Nov 24, 2009, 06:58 AM // 06:58

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Originally Posted by Chthon

1. I view Rigor as a purely situational skill. Depending on the zone it can be vital, convenient, or a waste of space. Accordingly it goes on my bar only sometimes.

Agreed.

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2. Insidious Parasite is a total waste on a decent team (even a decent H+H team). It's bad for all the reasons reactive hexes are bad in general. (Note: That link is really worth reading for anyone who doesn't understand why this is so, but possesses the slightest capacity to learn.)

Believe it or not, the link you just posted does not actually agree with you. I would urge you to re-read the link. "Reactive hexes are bad" is a fine mantra, so long as you don't forget to use your mind.

Reactive hexes are bad when you have the option to choose between reactive and proactive hexing. The quintessential difference being your elite choice, SS vs. AP/MoP. In this case, it is clear that if you build your team around AP/MoP, it will be the stronger option.

In the case of IP, there is no dilemma involved. Even if you have RM on your bar, you still have space for IP. Thus, what you have presented is a false dilemma - the choice is not between IP and some proactive hex, the real choice is between a decent skill and some other random subpar skill.

Alone, IP is actually quite powerful. It's one skill that does more single target DPS than a physical hero and casts far faster than anything else with a similar effect.

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3. Suffering causes a whopping 2 degen. This effect is totally worthless. It's awful. Really, really, amazingly, profoundly awful. Reckless Haste is infinitely better because it does something useful. If, for some reason, you feel you really need the larger AoE radius, use Meekness. Even Ulcerous Lungs/Vocal Minority are potentially much better.

Yes, suffering is worthless, outside of a fish hex. But the point is, so is RH. Because of minions/spirits, aegis, SY! (or SYG!) if needed, RH is a redundant skill and its effect is therefore marginal. If an AoE fish hex is needed (which is never) meekness beats RH out by far.

Tenebrae · Nov 24, 2009, 08:58 AM // 08:58

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Originally Posted by traversc

Believe it or not, the link you just posted does not actually agree with you. I would urge you to re-read the link. "Reactive hexes are bad" is a fine mantra, so long as you don't forget to use your mind.

Reactive hexes are bad when you have the option to choose between reactive and proactive hexing. The quintessential difference being your elite choice, SS vs. AP/MoP. In this case, it is clear that if you build your team around AP/MoP, it will be the stronger option.

Bingo , anyway , just wanted to point out the "irony" of "reactive" while talking in pve .... where mobs just attack till they die or run away , "on attack" triggering hexes will still do good amounts of damage (like IP , cast and forget).

Quote:

Originally Posted by traversc

In the case of IP, there is no dilemma involved. Even if you have RM on your bar, you still have space for IP. Thus, what you have presented is a false dilemma - the choice is not between IP and some proactive hex, the real choice is between a decent skill and some other random subpar skill.

Alone, IP is actually quite powerful. It's one skill that does more single target DPS than a physical hero and casts far faster than anything else with a similar effect.

Sad but true , any non targeted melee in HM with IP will destroy half of its HP bar in short time.

Quote:

Originally Posted by traversc

Yes, suffering is worthless, outside of a fish hex. But the point is, so is RH. Because of minions/spirits, aegis, SY! (or SYG!) if needed, RH is a redundant skill and its effect is therefore marginal. If an AoE fish hex is needed (which is never) meekness beats RH out by far.

Well if you have minions , and or spirit , aegis chains and SY! yeah , meekness wins.

Chthon · Nov 25, 2009, 01:38 AM // 01:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by traversc

Reactive hexes are bad when you have the option to choose between reactive and proactive hexing...In the case of IP, there is no dilemma involved....

Choosing reactive hexing over proactive hexing is bad. Choosing reactive hexing in addition to proactive hexing is also bad. If you're doing a halfway decent job at proactive hexing, any reactive hexes shouldn't get enough time to make a difference. There's about 12 skills I'd like to fit on my hex bar, and none of them is a reactive hex.

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Yes, suffering is worthless, outside of a fish hex. But the point is, so is RH. Because of minions/spirits, aegis, SY! (or SYG!) if needed, RH is a redundant skill and its effect is therefore marginal.

The same is true in reverse: because of RH, one of minions/spirits, aegis, SY! (or SYG!) becomes a redundant skill. It's a question of where you have bar space and which attributes were you going to run anyway. If your team is in a position where you can afford to cut a melee defense skill, I would, for example, drop Aegis from a minion bomber before I'd drop RH from a hex guy.

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If an AoE fish hex is needed (which is never) meekness beats RH out by far.

It's pretty rare.

AtomicMew · Nov 25, 2009, 05:51 AM // 05:51

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Originally Posted by Chthon

Choosing reactive hexing over proactive hexing is bad. Choosing reactive hexing in addition to proactive hexing is also bad. If you're doing a halfway decent job at proactive hexing, any reactive hexes shouldn't get enough time to make a difference. There's about 12 skills I'd like to fit on my hex bar, and none of them is a reactive hex.

Such as?

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The same is true in reverse: because of RH, one of minions/spirits, aegis, SY! (or SYG!) becomes a redundant skill. It's a question of where you have bar space and which attributes were you going to run anyway. If your team is in a position where you can afford to cut a melee defense skill, I would, for example, drop Aegis from a minion bomber before I'd drop RH from a hex guy.

That would be true, except that RH is far, far weaker than aegis and requires a slot on a player bar, which is much, much more valuable than a slot on a hero bar. Thus, it's "bang for buck" so to speak is not quite up to par. If anything, your argument supports meekness, not RH, since it has essentially the same effect only it lasts longer and is in an area 9x as big as RH.